Help with VehicleMaker

[OjnoTheRed]

All I wanted to do was have some basic stats for a TL6 light wheeled passenger car. I have attached my worksheet.

I have some unexpected values.

Cost: Cr30,000 (expected: Cr5000 or so)
Tonnage: 3 (12 cubes is about right)
TL: turned out to be TL2. Expected TL5 or TL6. Starting point was TL6 for wheeled car; -1 TL for being Light; -2 TL for stage "Fossil", -1 TL for Enclosed (all on p. 260). TL2 is the Age of Sail:Horse-and-cart or canals are still the common transport.
Armour: looks about right, although the design process is unclear.

I also have a question as the rules are not clear: when the designer chooses Environ on p. 260, do we modify those values based on Bulk and Stage, or do they replace values previously calculated?

I've had a try at searching errata and for VehicleMaker walk-throughs but no luck.

 

[Timerover51]

All I wanted to do was have some basic stats for a TL6 light wheeled passenger car. I have attached my worksheet.

I have some unexpected values.

Cost: Cr30,000 (expected: Cr5000 or so)
Tonnage: 3 (12 cubes is about right)
TL: turned out to be TL2. Expected TL5 or TL6. Starting point was TL6 for wheeled car; -1 TL for being Light; -2 TL for stage "Fossil", -1 TL for Enclosed (all on p. 260). TL2 is the Age of Sail:Horse-and-cart or canals are still the common transport.
Armour: looks about right, although the design process is unclear.

I also have a question as the rules are not clear: when the designer chooses Environ on p. 260, do we modify those values based on Bulk and Stage, or do they replace values previously calculated?

I've had a try at searching errata and for VehicleMaker walk-throughs but no luck.

With respect to Vehicle Maker, I would recommend a couple of things. One is, if you are going to use it, throw out all of the adjustments that reduce the required Tech Level. The other is find a sample vehicle of the Tech Level that you want, if it is less than Tech Level 9, and use that, converted to the Traveller format.

Assuming that Tech Level 6 is roughly 1950, a more accurate price would be about 2000 Credits or less, based on One Credit equalling $1 in 1977. As for the Cube calculations, a 1949 Ford Light 5-Passenger Sedan massed loaded at 4170 pounds, and was approximately 72 inches wide, 65 inches high, and 197 inches long.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

With respect to Vehicle Maker, I would recommend a couple of things. One is, if you are going to use it, throw out all of the adjustments that reduce the required Tech Level. The other is find a sample vehicle of the Tech Level that you want, if it is less than Tech Level 9, and use that, converted to the Traveller format.

Assuming that Tech Level 6 is roughly 1950, a more accurate price would be about 2000 Credits or less, based on One Credit equalling $1 in 1977. As for the Cube calculations, a 1949 Ford Light 5-Passenger Sedan massed loaded at 4170 pounds, and was approximately 72 inches wide, 65 inches high, and 197 inches long.

Great idea on <TL9 conversion - thanks heaps. I'll play with what you've said about TL adjustment. The other change I'd make is to reduce the KCr cost for cars and vans by removing one zero. "Vehicle" (i.e. base for ATV) looks OK, it's just at the smaller end I reckon is too expensive.

 

[Timerover51]

I was supplying vehicle information to tjoneslo on reworking Vehicle Maker, but that sort of petered out. I do have a lot of info on vehicles of the World War 2 and Korean War period, basically Tech Level 5 and 6, that you could work with if you are interested. I also have the 1962 Standard Vehicle Data sheets for the US Army, along with info on Warsaw Pact vehicles of that period. The US Data includes vehicles such as passenger cars of various types, buses, cargo trucks and trailers, light trucks, and motorcycles. I will go back and see if I can get the links to post here with them. I am not sure if I could email you the files, as they are somewhat large.

For that matter, I also have the information for all aircraft issued a Flight Certification in the US from the 1920s to the Boeing 707, and a massive amount of data on nautical ship construction. It just depends on what you want to do. I am working on converting some of that into something like a Vehicles Catalogue from Tech Level 0 to about Tech Level 8 that can be used with all versions of Traveller. I just have to work that into what else I am doing.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

That sounds like an awesome project. What a challenge you've set yourself in distilling all of that data!

I am curious to take a look, yes. I suppose what I want to achieve is a quick workable system that tells me the rough capabilities of Vehicle X on World Y with just a little more rigour around passengers and cargo. As with many things T5, I love the conceptual framework, but it breaks down in the detail.

If a catalog as comprehensive as what you have described can be, say, 80% built with VehicleMaker with some outliers, I'd be very happy.

If you and tjoneslo wanted to revive reworking VehicleMaker, I'd love to work with you.

 

[tjoneslo]

If a catalog as comprehensive as what you have described can be, say, 80% built with VehicleMaker with some outliers, I'd be very happy.

If you and tjoneslo wanted to revive reworking VehicleMaker, I'd love to work with you.

I would like to continue the work on the T5 VehicleMaker rebuild. Were you on the beta email list? I can send you a copy if you give me an email address. I'm still looking for more feedback.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Just PM'd you my e-mail.

 

[tjoneslo]

I was supplying vehicle information to tjoneslo on reworking Vehicle Maker, but that sort of petered out.

To be honest, I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the VehicleMaker / 105 vehicles project. I find that I put work into the project as long as I'm getting feedback on it. But when requests for feedback or additional information seeming disappear into a black hole so does my ability to be distracted by another bright shiny.

 

[Timerover51]

Just a note for aspiring Vehicle Maker users.

Nautical ships have been built of a variety of materials throughout history. Materials such as hide and wood pose a distinct limit on the size of the vessel. The use of muscle power, be it human beings or another source, will also pose size limitations. Increasing the number of persons on an oar does not give a proportional increase in power, as each additional person supplies less and less an increment.

The same holds true for animal-powered vehicles once you get above about 6 to 8 power sources. In addition, there is the increased weight and complexity of harnessing large numbers of animals for power.

 

[Timerover51]

For those interested, the following quote comes from the 1886 edition of Sir Garnet Wolseley's Soldier's Pocket Book for Field Service. Wolseley was the premier soldier of the Victorian Royal Army, and had some "slight" experience with animal transport. There is quite a lot in his book on the various kinds of transport and wagons, including the foibles of human bearers.

Draught for transport purposes should be calculated at from 10 to 12 cwt. per horse, for all stores in flat countries with ordinarily fair roads, the length of the march being about 20, but never over 25 miles except under peculiar and emergent circumstances. For the conveyance of the entrenching tools and reserve S.A.A. of battns., the gross draught per horse should not exceed 7 or at most 8 cwt.

With respect to human bearers, Wolseley has the following advice.

If the fidelity of the drivers of this levied transport can be trusted they should be employed upon the part of the L. of C. passing through the districts to which they belong, as casualties in men and animals can then be more easily replaced ; but if their fidelity is suspected, the farther they are employed from their own homes the better, as they are then more dependent upon you, and deserters are more easily apprehended ; this was proved in 1860 in the north of China, where the 3000 men of the Coolie Corps brought from the south remained faithful to us throughout the war, whilst the transport locally obtained never could be depended upon, and in one instance deserted en masse.

It should be noted that Chinese Coolies recruited in South China would presumably have spoken Cantonese, while in North China, Mandarin would have been the primary language.

I do have quite a bit of information on animal-powered transport, as well as several U.S. Army manuals covering transport. See my signature for one of my odd hobbies.

 

[Timerover51]

For those interested, the following rule of thumb is based on Admiral William Rodgers work, Greek and Roman Naval Warfare.

A reasonably trained human being of say 160 to 180 pounds can generate about 1/3 horsepower for about 20 minutes, and 1/12 horsepower for an extended period. If engaged in rowing, the Effective Horsepower for propulsion is one-half of the generated horsepower. More men per oar does not proportionately increase the horsepower output, with 10 men generating 0.640 horsepower, assuming that one man generates 0.143 horsepower. The 0.143 represents the lower horsepower output per man assumed by Rodgers for the Ancient and Renaissance periods. I would credit the professional oarsmen of the Ancient period, and perhaps the oarsmen of Venice during the 1500s with 1/6 effective horsepower output, rather than 1/7.

 

[Timerover51]

For those interested in working up some sailing ships, you might want to take a look at Richard Henry Dana's book, The Seaman's Friend, which can be found here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/40958/40958-h/40958-h.htm at Project Gutenberg. The book was copyrighted in 1847, at about the peak of wooden sailing ship development. The following is a sample of what is in the book, which does include all of the various duties of the captain and crew, as well as cargo and passenger articles.

Tonnage and Carriage of Merchant Vessels.—The amount a vessel will carry in proportion to her tonnage, depends upon whether, and to what extent, she is full or sharp built. A sharp-built vessel of 300 tons' measurement, will carry just about her tonnage of measurement goods. A sharp-built vessel of 200 tons or under would probably carry less than her measurement; if over 400 tons, she would increase gradually to fifty per cent. above her measurement. A sharp-built vessel of 600 tons, is generally rated at 900 tons carriage. A full-built vessel of 300 tons, after the latest model of American freighting vessels, will carry 525 tons, or seventy-five per cent. above her measurement; and one of 500 tons would carry full double her measurement.

The entire control of the navigation and working of the ship lies with the master. He gives the course and general directions to the officer of the watch, who enters upon a slate, at the end of the watch, the course made, and the number of knots, together with any other observations. The officer of the watch is at liberty to trim the yards, to make alterations in the upper sails, to take in and set royals, topgallant sails, &c.; but no important alteration can be made, as, for instance, reefing a topsail, without the special order of the master, who, in such cases, always comes upon deck and takes command in person. When on deck, the weather side of the quarter-deck belongs to him, and as soon as he appears, the officer of the watch will always leave it, and go over to leeward, or forward into the waist. If the alteration to be made is slight, the master usually tells the officer to take in or set such a sail, and leaves to him the particular ordering as to the braces, sheets, &c., and the seeing all things put in place. The principal manœuvres of the vessel, as tacking, wearing, reefing topsails, getting under way, and coming to anchor, require all hands. In these cases, the master takes command and gives his orders in person, standing upon the quarter-deck.

 

[Timerover51]

For those who might be interested. If you are working on any nautical vessels that are not military, here would be a good website to get some information from as to what is currently being built or for sale.

http://www.apolloduck.com