Help the Newbie?

[malek77]

Hey all!

I'm a relatively new RPGamer, having started on Cyberpunk2020, but I've always known of Traveller and been curious to give it a go. That and I'm a drooling fan of Chris Foss, of whom much Traveller art seems remniscent.

Having read a few threads here, I think I'd enjoy Traveller...now I'm just left with where to start.

There seems to be Classic Traveller, Megatraveller, and TNE (The New Era?)...and I have the distinct feeling they're all seperate Rule Sets.

Could I get some advice on what You would consider 'The Essential Traveller Pack'?

In case it helps to know - I'm Aussie, I like developing my own histories for things(a worldbuilders book over an atlas), and prefer a very hi-tech edge over more Retro stylings...

 

[Rotters2]

First of all... G'DAY MATE! from a fellow Aussie (oi oi oi!!!)

If you are starting out in Traveller, it's probably wise to go for T20. That's the D20 version of Traveller. Don't play it myself (I'm a Classic Trav/TNE fan), but it seems to be the one that has the most available stuff out there at the moment (Have noticed it as the most available in Australian stores).

From what I gather, it's a similar system to 3rd ed D&D (insofar as skills and tasks etc goes....) so if you're familiar with the one, the other should be like a hi-tech homecoming.

Also, a lot of the free downloads are T20 based, and you can download a free copy of the T20 lite from the elibrary section of this very forum (at the top of the page).

A lot of people will tell you that this version is better than that one etc... but I think in all honesty, it's the ref & players that make ANY RPG great....

Anyhow, hope this helps, mate.

 

[Malenfant]

Actually, GURPS Traveller probably has more stuff currently available than T20 does (presumably GURPS is easy to find Down Under

)

As to which one is best... it depends what you're after. Right now you can get GURPS Traveller and T20 in the shops, and if you're lucky you can find the CT Reprints. You can also download Megatraveller and TNE from http://www.drivethrurpg.com (but I think the TNE corebook will be made available for free sometime in the next few months).

That said, if you're looking for Worldbuilding then Traveller is good for that (so long as you don't allow yourself to get hamstrung by 'canon'). If it's actual worldbuilding you want, track down GURPS Traveller: First In, which contains the most realistic planet/star generation rules out there (unfortunately it's out of print).

However, if it's high-tech you want over "retro stylings" then you may be better off buying an RPG like Transhuman Space (which has AI, genetic engineering, memetics, and other cool stuff). Traveller is somewhat grounded in 60s/70s scifi, though TNE broke away from that somewhat with the introduction of an AI virus that destroys the Imperium.

It also depends on what sort of system you like. GURPS is a more gritty (and more sensible, IMO) system than T20. Frankly, I think T20 is somewhat hamstrung by the decision to base character generation on the IMO fairly atrocious and deathly boring and longwinded random character generation system used in CT - plus the d20 system itself isn't all that great despite being the most popular one around. GURPS uses a straight point-buy system that lets you make the character you want rather than one that you're lumbered with as a result of many endless crappy dice rolls.

My advice would be to take a look at all the systems and see what you like.

 

[malek77]

G'day!

>"From what I gather, it's a similar system to
>3rd ed D&D (insofar as skills and tasks etc
>goes....) so if you're familiar with the one,
>the other should be like a hi-tech homecoming."

LoL - no. I'm something of a heretic - I've never played D&D, let alone a D20 system.

>"plus the d20 system itself isn't all that
>great despite being the most popular one around"

I have nothing personal against 20 sided dice, but I've been warned (read: observed monumental flame wars) about D20 systems throwing away realism for a hopelessly unrealistic Level system. Is this a valid concern or just pro-D10 propaganda?


>"GURPS is a more gritty (and more sensible,
>IMO) system than T20"

Ooh - sounds the ticket. I am still interested in the Traveller Canon history...would taking the GURPS path hamper my understanding of it?

Where does GURPS Traveller fall in the timeline?

Most of my RPing/GMing experience is in online games, and I'd like to be able to join in without looking like a total dirtbound hick...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

If you'd asked a week or so ago, you could've got MT for free from DriveThru...

T20 is okay, and easy to get hold of, but the d20 system is useless.

GURPS Traveller is good for background info, but the system's not that great (but still better than d20).

Unless you have some particular fondness for those systems I'd go for the CT reprints or MT PDFs.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

LoL - no. I'm something of a heretic - I've never played D&D, let alone a D20 system.

You've not missed much.

I have nothing personal against 20 sided dice, but I've been warned (read: observed monumental flame wars) about D20 systems throwing away realism for a hopelessly unrealistic Level system. Is this a valid concern or just pro-D10 propaganda?

Yeah, sounds about right.

Ooh - sounds the ticket. I am still interested in the Traveller Canon history...would taking the GURPS path hamper my understanding of it?

There are 3 problems:

1. GURPS uses Imperial measurements, Traveller is metric. Minor, but annoying.

2. GURPS uses a different Tech Level scale, which is confusing.

3. GT history diverges from canon, so the events in MT and TNE don't happen.

 

[Malenfant]

The main problem with GURPS is the aforementioned US units - it makes designing vehicles a living nightmare (unless of course, you're American and therefore used to it). This is compounded by GURPS having a very complex vehicle design system that practically lets you design a vehicle down to the last nuts and bolts.

However, if you're coming into it with no previous experience of Traveller then you don't need to care about how consistent things are with other versions of canon.

Yes, GT diverges from canon in the sense that events in MT and TNE don't happen. However, because of this it's actually a damn sight closer to CT canon (which everyone supposedly loves) so I don't quite see how this would be a problem to most people. It's basically the default CT universe fastforwarded about 6 years.

I think T20 is problematic as a system for several reasons:

First, it was designed using D&D as a base, not D20 Modern (which AFAIK is more streamlined and generic and less fantasy based). This may be changing in the upcoming standalone Traveller's Guidebook currently in playtest here, but I'm not sure how much they've divorced T20 from D&D there.

Second, some of the feats in T20 just plain don't make sense to me - for example, why should you need a skill and a feat in order to fly a grav vehicle? I can't help but feel a point has been missed regarding feats - I see them more as manoeuvres you can do with skills (so you can take a skill of "Grav Vehicle Piloting" and a feat of "Stunt Driving"), not as surrogate skills themselves.

Third, being based on d20 it suffers to some extent from the "get more snacky powerz" mentality that D&D usually has - as you go up levels, you get more feats and skills and abilities, which means the temptation is stronger to choose abilities because they make your character better in terms of game-mechanics (ie powergaming) rather than better in terms of actual character development.


Though the problem with GURPS now is that there's a new edition (4e) coming out in August that revises the rules somewhat. Though there will apparently be a way to convert between 3e (which the current version of GURPS Traveller is made for) and the new edition.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

If you are a newbie , you want simple , effective rules , which you can get in the the ct books 1-3 reprint for $12 , or the reprint of books 1-8 for a bit more .

then you want loads of background on the third imperium which is what traveller is really about .

for this the ct reprints are good ( travellers aide society ) and i really like the new QLI stuff for D20 , just for background and adventures ; i couldn't be dealing with levels in traveller . also the gurps books are great for background . and the B.I.T.S. ( british isles traveller support ) supplements and adventures are possibly the most full of ideas and best written trav stuff ever -

 

[ScottB]

Originally posted by malek77:
There seems to be Classic Traveller, Megatraveller, and TNE (The New Era?)...and I have the distinct feeling they're all seperate Rule Sets.

Kind of. Of those three, Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller are very close in terms of core mechanics. Stuff for one can generally be used for the other with little effort - their only wide deviation is the vehicle/ship design rules, which I personally don't consider a "core mechanic".

TNE is fairly different in both rules and default setting. I don't have the rules set myself, but AFAICT most people who use it play a reconstruction campaign, when interstellar civilization is rebuilding from a cataclysmic war. This is different in flavour from the "live in the cracks of Imperial society" campaign that Traveller and MegaTraveller are often used for.

There's also GURPS Traveller, which uses the GURPS ruleset. GURPS is kind of a mediocre system (IMHO) with outstanding sourcebooks, and the GT stuff is no exception. Regardless of the rules you use, you could probably find a use for some of the GURPS sourcebooks. It looks like it's usually used for the same sort of campaigns as Traveller and MT (though with a different timeline). GT and T20 (below) are the two that are currently being published.

There was a T4 some years back, about which I know nearly nothing. There is also apparently a T5 in development, about which I also know... nothing .

T20, Traveller using a d20 base, is also currently out. I've only skimmed over the rules, but they didn't look bad to me. I'm not sure what it uses for a setting, it looks like it's relatively setting-neutral.

You sometimes see 2300 AD (formerly Traveller 2300) mentioned as a Traveller-style game, too. It was a much "harder" brand of science fiction than out-of-the-box Traveller, in a setting all its own.

So far as recommendations go, I personally use a mix of Classic and MegaTraveller. Classic rules are actually easier to find, you can order reprints from:

http://www.farfuture.net/

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
then you want loads of background on the third imperium which is what traveller is really about .

It's not so much background on the 3I that you want - it's a decent setting in which you can run adventures, and AFAIK there aren't any available for CT (yes, there was the Spinward Marches thing that came out in the early 80s, but that's damn near impossible to find).

Right now, I think there are three options for 3I settings:

1) GT: Rim of Fire - this is a GURPS Traveller supplement covering the Solomani Rim sector (the region around Terra). It's got the full history of the sector and lots of stuff about the Solomani, plus detailed writeups on a lot of worlds. FCouple this with the fact that a Solomani Civil War seems to be brewing according to the TNS files coming out of SJG, and you've got a very rich setting.

2) GT: Sword Worlds - this covers the Sword Worlds region in the Spinward Marches, in much more detail than Rim of Fire covers the Solomani Rim sector. Instead of a few paragraphs about the important worlds, you get a few pages about the Sword Worlds, plus loads of history and ideas. Very good if you want to focus on a small area with a rich history.

3) T20 Gateway Domain Book - this covers no less than FOUR sectors, on the trailing side of the Imperium. Of course, it doesn't have quite as much detail as the other two books, but it certainly gives you enough to use as a setting.

There's also GT: Behind The Claw, but I'd suggest you avoid that - even though it's written by our own MJD, it is absolutely chock-full of errors, and it has writeups on every single world in it, which means you get no wiggle room as a GM at all.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

There's *loads* of CT background! Just get the reprints of the supplements, adventures, JTAS... er...actually, this could get expensive...

 

[Malenfant]

There's loads of background, but it's very incoherent and contradictory. Frankly, the CT Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim supplements are just subsector maps with very little actual background. The Library Data LBBs are just scattered titbits and paragraphs of information. And I don't consider adventures to be background.

The main problem, as you indicate, is that getting all that stuff is expensive in terms of money and time. If you want to start playing Traveller straight away, you're much better off getting one of the setting books that I mentioned.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

actually , i think behind the claw is great too .

 

[jasper]

I have to disagree with Malenfant.
If you are use to the 3rd E D&D the only adjustments you need to worry about is your pc gains levels before play. And CR is basically thrown out the window. You give a flat xp per combat and story awards. So you won't be gaining levels too fast.
Also combat is deadly in t20. 7th level and below pc too out a purple worm C12 in 3 rounds due to gun fire.
But both the t20 handbook and gateway are sparse for campaign development. If you thinking some like living GreyHawk, or Forgotten Realms detail you out of luck. If you enjoy light detail but some interesting start info like early Greyhawk you would like.
One good thing is you get to decide what is canon. How exact and detail you could be.
For example my players Visited 4 planets so far
I had to only map the two ships they were on. And only totally create 20 npcs. Most of the others are just names

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The trouble with the GT books is that, good as they are, the data needs converting if you're not playing GURPS.

 

[aramis]

The T20 rules are, for the most part, better than most d20 rules out there.

GT is a touchy subject, moreso becuase, unlike T20, it is specifically set in a non-canon timeline segment...the rebellion of Dulinor (predicate action for the shattering of the imperium and the later introduction of Virus) never happens, and it is divergent on a whole host of, for the most part, trivial issues. For some, it's the "One True Way"; for others, it is anathema. It has one basic assumption that drives away me: Only GT Matters for GT.

Ruleswise:
CT: the big problem is that, design wise, it's clearly not aged as well as other ruleset. d6 based ruleset, usually 2d for most skill rolls. Various graft on task system exist. two semi-compatible ship design systems. Minimum to run in homegrown settings: Bks 1-3; minimum for 3I Bks 1-3, supplements 4, 7,8 & 11, and either 3 or 10. Comfotable ruleset: Bks 1-8 and supplements 1-12.
MT: Ship design is out of synch with other rulesets, otherwise, it's CT Advanced; it has weathered better. Core ruleset: PM, RM, IE, and Ref's Companion. sane price as minimal starting CT, but more to work with. Better combat system, albeit somewhat more complex. 2d6 or 5d6 for tasks (The extra 3d being a time roll).
TNE: Twilight 2K2E/DC2E meets traveller, and then they destroyed the settingon top of it. It obtained a new, fresh following, while alienating a significnt chunk of extant fans. Design system uses CT-compatible rates, but not CT simple.
Uses d20 and d6. Minimum ruleset: core rulebook. Core Rules: add FF&S to core ruleset, and briliant lances.
T4: TNE design sequence, MT-ish CG, CT combat, and a badly broken task system with a modality which has failed in nearly every system that's tried it: Dice by difficulty rather than dice fixed or dice by skill. Playable with just the core rulebook. FF&S2 adds the design sequences for everything else. multiple d6 needed.
T5: Vaporware. Not out, unlikely to come out anytime in the near future. still looking like T4 1.2, what little is up for comment
GT: mechanically incompatible with ALL OTHER traveller rules at all levels. Also, not entirely GURPS compatible, either... the TL scale is bent for travellerisms, but otherwise, stock GURPS. Core Rules: GURPS Basic, GT. Optimal " Cannon Core": GB, GT, GTFarTrader, GT Behind the Claw. About tto be revised, so you might want to wait-and-see.
T20: much effort was made to make craft design compatible with High Guard; the setting is canonical, and about 100 years pre-rebellion On the opposite side of the imperium from the frontier wars. Core rules to run: T20 and a knowledge of the levelling up proceedure common to most D20 games.

 

[Hal]

I almost feel badly for you Malek77.

The problem with the question you asked is that there are those who like each of the different game systems that came out for Traveller. In trying to answer your question, I had to ask myself what are MY biases and I even wrote TWO posts for you to read - deleting both (this is my third attempt). Ultimately, I decided to sit back and ask YOU questions.

Do you want to play in a game where the characters are generated via pregeneration, and you have to go with the vagarities of the die rolls? Do you want a game system where the rules are reasonably fast and light handed that you can concentrate on the storyline? Then I'd buy CT and perhaps use the MT game mechanics.

Do you want to roleplay in a war torn Imperium as it comes tumbling down in ruins? Do you want a game system that uses 2d6 and has reasonably elegant rules for role playing - but a touch more complex than that of CT? Again, go for MT.

If you are familiar with TWILIGHT 2000, then you will be familiar with Traveller the New Era. It isn't easily explained in a few short paragraphs, but the game system is relatively simple - even if building the ships are not. If you want your players to have to worry about running out of fuel - and that they have a finite amount of fuel - go for this game version.

If you want a game that allows you to build things in a semi-realistic fashion (but is as easy as building ships in Classic Traveller) - and you want to have a game system where character advancement and growth is discernable (which is not really the case with CT) - then go for GURPS.

T4 is a game system I dropped almost as fast as I got it. T20 is a system I never purchased because I don't like D&D.

My bias is towards GURPS. If you want - try hitting EBAY for 3rd edition rules. If GURPS 4th Edition hits big, chances are good that some people may get rid of their 3rd edition stuff cheap. On the other hand, if 4th Edition flops, then Steve Jackson Games is possibly going to be in trouble. From what I've seen of 4th Edition in the free downloadable "Lite" version, I suspect that I'm going to both HATE it and Love it.

My suggestion to you is this: Get your hands on GURPS LITE 3rd edition (it is still available for download I believe.) Print out all of its 32 pages and see if you like the game system. I would also suggest the following:

Play the CT version first. See if you like it. Right now, you could buy the reprint version which will contain ALL of the first book set from CT - and for a reasonable price. Play it and master that game system first. You may find that you don't like it because it is TOO simple. If you don't like GURPS LITE and you find you don't like CT - THEN go for perhaps MT *or* TNE.

Just remember: you do NOT have to use the rule system from TNE and be forced to play in THE VIRUS laden universe. You can play in the early years of CT using ANY game system you want.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Aramis:
The T20 rules are, for the most part, better than most d20 rules out there.

Maybe, but they still could do with a lot of improvement IMO.

GT is a touchy subject, moreso becuase, unlike T20, it is specifically set in a non-canon timeline segment...

...which is more in line with CT that any other non-CT version of Traveller. GT is CT set about 6 years down the line. It's as if CT had carried on without any of the assassinations, rebellions etc. A lot of Traveller fans, I imagine, prefer that kind of setup to one where the 3I collapses.

it is divergent on a whole host of, for the most part, trivial issues.

Mostly these issues arise from using the GURPS system. Frankly, you'll find the same issues in T20.

It has one basic assumption that drives away me: Only GT Matters for GT.

That's an assumption you're making - not one that is based on reality. Prior to 1116, the GT universe is exactly the same as the CT universe (most of the practical differences arise from the need to convert things to GURPS terms, but those can be solved with a bit of work if you don't use GURPS). The basic game system itself doesn't really affect the game though (unless you're one of these people who thinks that Traveller is all about convoluted random character generation, which GURPS lacks).

Certainly I don't recall seeing anything that implied that "only GT matters for GT".

TNE: Twilight 2K2E/DC2E meets traveller

In terms of rules only.

It obtained a new, fresh following, while alienating a significnt chunk of extant fans.

I suspect the reality is that it alienated a very vocal minority of extant fans, not a significant chunk. I suspect their constant, public whining, overdramatic grandstanding, and harping on about "betrayals" probably did more damage to the game than anything else.

GT: mechanically incompatible with ALL OTHER traveller rules at all levels. Also, not entirely GURPS compatible, either... the TL scale is bent for travellerisms, but otherwise, stock GURPS.

Actually, starship construction is a little off the GURPS Vehicles rules, but it's still pretty much GURPS compatible.

Of course, whether one really needs to care that it is incompatible with other Traveller rules is another matter, especially if it's the first version of Traveller you get into. To some extent, none of the existing Traveller rulesets are particularly compatible with eachother anyway.

 

[Malenfant]

Just remember: you do NOT have to use the rule system from TNE and be forced to play in THE VIRUS laden universe. You can play in the early years of CT using ANY game system you want.

Or he could try the TNE version and might find he actually likes it...

Um, nobody's forcing him to play any specific version of Traveller here.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

For the record, what I use is a mixture of MT and T4, with background and sourcebooks from CT, GT and T20. I own TNE as well, but I don't use it.