Hard money in traveller.

[Sophiathegreen]

I donot like the way they only have electronic money.
The best way to have money good everywhere in the Imperium is to go back to than ancient idear metal coin of silver, gold, irridium and platinium. The coins come in 1 gram, 5 grams, 10 grams, 20 grams and
30 grams size.

Silver coins.
1 gram silver coin is worth 1 cr
5 gram silver coin is worth 5 cr
10 gram silver coin is worth 10 cr
20 gram silver coin is worth 20 cr
30 gram silver coin is worth 30 cr

gold coins
1 gram gold coin is worth 25 cr
5 gram gold coin is worth 125 cr
10 gram gold coin is worth 250 cr
20 gram gold coin is worth 500 cr
30 gram gold coin is worth 750 cr

irridium coins
1 gram irridium coin is worth 40 cr
5 gram irridium coin is worth 200 cr
10 gram irridium coin is worth 400 cr
20 gram irridium coin is worth 800 cr
30 gram irridium coin is worth 1200 cr

platinium coins
1 gram platinium coin is worth 50 cr
5 gram platinium coin is worth 250 cr
10 gram platinium coin is worth 500 cr
20 gram platinium coin is worth 1000 cr
30 gram platinium coin is worth 1500 cr

value of 1 kg of these metal

silver 1 kg is worth 1000 cr
gold 1 kg is worth 25000 cr
irridium 1 kg is worth 40000 cr
platinium 1 kg is worth 50000 cr

 

[Whipsnade]

"I donot like the way they only have electronic money. The best way to have money good everywhere in the Imperium is to go back to than ancient idear metal coin of silver, gold, irridium and platinium. The coins come in 1 gram, 5 grams, 10 grams, 20 grams and
30 grams size."

(snip of additional metal monetarism)

Sophiathegreen,

Shades of Free Silver and William Jennings Bryant! You, of course, realize that the Third Imperium would have to vigorously enforce the various exchange rates you've suggested for these monetary metals? Otherwise a major gold strike in subsector A could lead to an inflationary spiral Imperium-wide.

Also, the Imperium as a whole would have to be constantly finding new loads of these metals in order that the currency supply could grow with the Imperial economy. Even if the economy grew by only 0.01 percent over the last year, the Imperium would need 0.01 percent more monetary metals to represent that growth. Otherwise the same amount of monetary metals would now represent the bigger Imperial economy and you're oh-so-carefully calculated and enforced exchange rates would go right out the window.

So the Imperium would have to monitor and enforce internal exchange rates AND strictly control the mining and processing of all monetary ores so that the money supply remains in step with the economy AND prevent anyone from finding any new sources of monetary metals until economic growth requires it. And they'll be able to do this across an empire so vast it takes two years for the Spinward Marches to talk to the Solomani Rim. Yup, the 'remote' and 'hands-off' Imperium of canon should be able to do all that stuff.

Let's see, my 200MCr starship will require me to show up at the dealership with 'only' 5000 kg of platinum at 40,000 Cr/kg. Good thing my 57th Century wallet has contragrav lifters built in!


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Sophiathegreen]

Whipsnade the coins will most likely be use by traveller going from one star systen to than other one who say want to have 15000 credit onland. All he or she need is to have 10 30 gram coins of platinum which can be change for paper money at the other world or depoit in a bank account where electron tranfer can be use. Also I allow the Imperium to issue paper money which have than minium backing of 25 % in hard metal at the subsector Imperium Reserve Bank. It not going to be like today dollar which have
no hard metal backing at all. The Imperium can issue
unback paper money called reb back as special red paper is use to tell the public that this money is unback by hard metals an is fiat money.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

I forgot what about the Imperium haveing than base on than Tech level 1 or 2 world which want Imperium potection and how would pay the personal who want to go to the nearest town or city on leave. Electron money is no good no electric power, no computer system, the locals donot trust paper money but take silver and gold coins with token copper coins for small change like .01 credit, .05 credit and so on.

Plus I am working on than campaige that take place than 100 to 20 year before the founding of the 3rd Imperium in the Core subsector the Sylea Confederation.

 

[Liam Devlin]

This being a T-4 page, leads me to ask ye, Sophiathegreen, d'ye have a copy of T-4's Pocket empires?

IIRC it abstracts money into cr units, and does not get bogged down into minutae like specie per se.
Thats a level of detail I'll cheerfully ignore IMTU for two reasons:
A) it distracts the GM (me) from Roleplaying the story out.
B) We assume a fair amount of lower non electronic economies(TL-3thru TL-0)have some sort of moneychanger etc, to interface items of value at starport (which if in Imperial space- will have means to make conversions (tho limited).

Anything with an X-class starport, there isn't any means of exchange..(and is probably interdicted or amber zoned for a reason..making change for a 100Kcr note isn't one of them lad.)

 

[Jame]

Why not just have plastic coins? Those would be relatively cheap to manufacture and distribute, and by tl12 there should be some sort of safeguard for it.

And even if there's metal money, it doesn't have to be pure - but value could depend upon the purity!

 

[Sophiathegreen]

Originally posted by Jame:
Why not just have plastic coins? Those would be relatively cheap to manufacture and distribute, and by tl12 there should be some sort of safeguard for it.

And even if there's metal money, it doesn't have to be pure - but value could depend upon the purity!

Coins are like bars of silver and gold but with than stamp offical of their weight and purerity. In fact if I was to copy than coin or any type that exist in the world or history I better have the right weight and purerity of elso I commit than fenoy of concenical money.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Sophiathegreen, a 1 Gram silver coin 8mm in diameter, a gold 1 gr coin is about 5mm, the size of the circles of paper removed by a 3-hole punch.

I cannot consider this convenient. Traditionally silver is worth $1/ounce, gold $32/ounce. Considering that the Credit is roughly equal to a debased 1976 dollar and that a troy ounce is 31 grams,
A silver credit would be 5 g, a little smaller than a quarter or shilling. A 5 Cr coin will be s little smaller than a silver dollar, a dime-sized silver coin would be worth 0.5 Cr, smaller coins would have to be alloy.
A 100 Cr gold coin (which I nostalgically call an Eagle) would be the size of a quarter and weigh 16 g. A fifty Cr "half-eagle" is a little bigger than a dime.
1 Kg silver coins= 200 Cr
1 Kg gold coins=6000 Cr

Coins in these denominations would be convenient for vending machines and pocket chsnge and honored at face value on low-tech worlds in and out of the Empire. Their value in the Empire is mostly determinned by Imperial fiat, because asteroid mining will drive the cost of gold and silver 'way down in a space-fairing civilization.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

In the medival and ancient world gold coin where rare
epect for very wealth empires. Coins where also smaller in size compare to the more modern one as these coins where carry in purse like the coin purse woman wallet have today. Man in New York City brought
those woman wallets to hold subway token and changes.
Donot call them Homo most of then wherenot they just
want something to hold they change and subway token.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

You can alway not use 1 gram size coin. Did you know the USA Mint have on list than unit od coinage never
use since the founding of the Mint call the Mill 1/1000 of than dollar.

 

[Uncle Bob]

A British shilling has been about the size of a quarter from Roman times (when it was called a solidus). The value of metal coins has decreased over the years as more metal was available, but the coins haven't changed much.

A shilling/quarter bought a day's semi-skilled labor in the middle ages, just a couple of hours in the 19th century (a dollar a day was the going rate). A credit is worth (roughly) a 1975 dollar, so it has a metal value of 2/3 a 1900 shilling/quarter.

It would be rather embarasing to show up on a TL 3 world with a 5 gram 5 Cr coin (5 Cr is $15 in 2000 AD money)and discover that the locals thought it was worth only a loaf of bread. With asteroid mining silver and gold is cheap, so you might as well make the coins big enough to have value in a low TL world.

Platinum and iridium have no value on a low-tech world except as curiosities and in space-faring societies their intrinsic value is no more than the silver they are mined with. I see no point in these coins.

TL 1-3 societies rarely transport large quantities of specie. For private or government use, if you need more than pocket-change you get a letter of credit which will be honored between banking housess. These notes between banks was the start of paper money, which is why British paper money are called "pound notes." The engraved printing made it hard to counterfeit.

In space-fairing civilizations sepecie coins and printed money will be easy to counterfeit. The only guarantee will be electronic validation and encription. We are back to a "smart card," unfortunately.

I like silver and gold coins for values under 100 Cr. The intrinsic value of the silver and gold even in even heavy coins will be negligable with space mining, but they will be useful for paying off low-tech worlders, gambling, vending machines, and untracable social payments (buying a round of drinks or tipping a stripper when your wife sees the smart-card bills).

 

[Sophiathegreen]

Tech level scancer can measure the purely of coins very easy and fast. In Italy there is than private company that make america gold coins than to avoid counterfeiting charge in Italy they must the the same
purerity and weight of America gold coin. I want saw and have in hand the silver coin make in Charlemagion Empire in the Dark age it was than very irregulate shape small coin. Than pennyweight is equall to about
than 1 1/2 gram which was the weight of the smallest coin mint in the middle age and dark age I believe.

I got the value for kg of silver and other metal from
space opera than roleplaying game out of print from Fantasy Games Unlimited. Irridium is mint by the Imperium for use as than space currentry between star system. My traveller world is takeing place before the 3rd Imperium about 100 to 20 year before
the founding of the 3rd Imperium. I can alway raise
the value of the metals to make worth more. Irridium is than pettry rare metal as is platinium.
I thought than gold Solidus was than small 4 pennyweight coin. The Late Roman Empire after the debasement of their silver and gold coinage during the long area of cival war in the middle 2nd century to middle 3rd century only make their gold coinage good and pure in fact 100 % pure gold with no fix value to the copper and bronze and brass and
silver coins they issues.

 

[Jame]

So why is an Imperial Credit, backed by the economy of a government which controls 11,000+ systems, or at least the space and trade between them, only worth as much as $1.00 (U.S.?) from 1975?

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Jame:
So why is an Imperial Credit, backed by the economy of a government which controls 11,000+ systems, or at least the space and trade between them, only worth as much as $1.00 (U.S.?) from 1975?

Probably because it's convenient to have a unit that distinguishes between relatively small amounts of value. The value of a monetary unit is pretty much arbitrary - even if it is backed by 'hard' currency, you can always change your mind about how many Credits 1kg of Gold is worth.

Imagine having a Credit that is worth 1,000 times what it is worth now? You would need to have that Mill coin sophiathegreen mentions in order to just buy a drink, or a snack. Sings would need to say Cr2/1000 for a small item that currently can be Cr2 ...

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Falkayn:

Imagine having a Credit that is worth 1,000 times what it is worth now? You would need to have that Mill coin sophiathegreen mentions in order to just buy a drink, or a snack. Sings would need to say Cr2/1000 for a small item that currently can be Cr2 ...

Or worth 10 000 less...

Imagine having to bring in 30 000 Cr. just to buy a cheezburger with fries...

For convenience you'd have to eliminate 1 and 10 Cr notes or be prepared to have truckload of small change...

 

[Jame]

I think that I meant that 1 ICR would be worth much more , has more value, than $1 U.S. This would mean that a U.S. resident (citizen, non-citizen, what-have-you) would need CR 30 for a meal at Burger King on another planet, but an Imperial citizen could get it here on Earth for a third of a credit.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

I think you confuseing the value of money with it buying power which are two different thing. In the ancient world than common person under normal circ never saw of handle than gold coin. One gold coin was
able to buy than food to feed thousand's of people for one day. That wasnot the value of the gold coin but it buying power. The buying power of the america dollar is much reduce today. It very hard to estimate
the value of gold and silver in the past an they buying power. Gold coins where only use commonly by government, rich land owner and rich merchant's.

 

[jasper]

guys check out the following books
Coin craft’s English and UK coins 1066 to Date www.coincraft.com

America’s Money America’s story by Richard Doty.

Coins and minting by Denis cooper note shire album version is abridge version of his original book The Art and craft of coin making: a history of minting technology

if I remember correctly the richard the 3rd Gold angel was worth 1/3 of pound which was 80 pennies.

 

[JAFARR]

IMTU, We assume that any world with a C+ starport would exchange Cr to the local currency be it paper, metal, plactic, or electronic. D & E was a 50/50 chance that there was a local currency, and X was always barter. That way we could get on with the game without having to worry with the minor details.

We once bought a lot of "Blank Forms" to sell on a world several jumps away when our Broker 4+ character maxed out his estimate roll. Imagine our suprise when we discovered we had purchased 15 tons of paper currency. Someone decided to mis-label it on purpose as a security measure. The shipment had been mishandled for some reason and we bought it for next to nothing. After insuring that it was not stolen or counterfit or some how involved in criminal activity, it turned out to be something like 250 MCr each. 2 of us went to Darrian and purchased a brand new ship paid in full, plus placed enough money on deposit for the intrest to pay for the annual overhaul each year. Because of some other things that happened, the rest of our group got parinoid and wanted to sell our current ship. We hired a broker to buy it anonymously for us to operate while our new ship was being built and still had money left over to speculate on cargo. Why can't something like that happen to me in real life?

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
IMTU, We assume that any world with a C+ starport would exchange Cr to the local currency be it paper, metal, plactic, or electronic. D & E was a 50/50 chance that there was a local currency, and X was always barter. That way we could get on with the game without having to worry with the minor details.

We once bought a lot of "Blank Forms" to sell on a world several jumps away when our Broker 4+ character maxed out his estimate roll. Imagine our suprise when we discovered we had purchased 15 tons of paper currency. Someone decided to mis-label it on purpose as a security measure. The shipment had been mishandled for some reason and we bought it for next to nothing. After insuring that it was not stolen or counterfit or some how involved in criminal activity, it turned out to be something like 250 MCr each. 2 of us went to Darrian and purchased a brand new ship paid in full, plus placed enough money on deposit for the intrest to pay for the annual overhaul each year. Because of some other things that happened, the rest of our group got parinoid and wanted to sell our current ship. We hired a broker to buy it anonymously for us to operate while our new ship was being built and still had money left over to speculate on cargo. Why can't something like that happen to me in real life?

Most Likely this doesn't happen in real life because no one except drug dealers have that much cash on hand and they aren't selling it.