GURPS Traveller
- Thread starter mjwest
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DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mjwest:
I have seen a lot of negative feelings directed toward GURPS and GURPS Traveller. What is wrong with them? (Either or both.)
This is *not* intended to start a flame war. I am just curious as to why people seem so put off by GURPS.
Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well gurps is not my cup of tea, though I don't usually make a habit of saying nasty things about it.
I suspect though that a message board that officially supports two alternate future rule sets (in the sense of having specific forums for them.) will tend to attract people who are dissatisfied with the other rule sets already available.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
I have seen a lot of negative feelings directed toward GURPS and GURPS Traveller. What is wrong with them? (Either or both.)
This is *not* intended to start a flame war. I am just curious as to why people seem so put off by GURPS.
Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well gurps is not my cup of tea, though I don't usually make a habit of saying nasty things about it.
I suspect though that a message board that officially supports two alternate future rule sets (in the sense of having specific forums for them.) will tend to attract people who are dissatisfied with the other rule sets already available.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
I like GURPS Traveller for the core source material it is bringing into the setting (though some of the aliens added have been inappropriate, IMHO). The attention that SJG gives to any game in their design spotlight is bound to produce good things (the deckplan sets being a good example)...
My issues are all to do with GURPS itself. Some issues are mechanical, but most are to do with presentation. GURPS has the highest "average chargen time"-to-"number of characteristics" ratio of any game I've looked at, and most of it has to do with layout and presentation choices SJG made years ago in order to "look different" from the Hero System. These choices turn what should be (for all except things like GURPS Supers) a fairly compact character generation system into a VERY large part of the basic book, and stretch what could be a 10 minute process (at most) into 45 minutes of page flipping (at least). GURPS failed my "time to make your first-ever character" test years ago, and it hasn't changed.
[This message has been edited by GypsyComet (edited 02 July 2001).]
My issues are all to do with GURPS itself. Some issues are mechanical, but most are to do with presentation. GURPS has the highest "average chargen time"-to-"number of characteristics" ratio of any game I've looked at, and most of it has to do with layout and presentation choices SJG made years ago in order to "look different" from the Hero System. These choices turn what should be (for all except things like GURPS Supers) a fairly compact character generation system into a VERY large part of the basic book, and stretch what could be a 10 minute process (at most) into 45 minutes of page flipping (at least). GURPS failed my "time to make your first-ever character" test years ago, and it hasn't changed.
[This message has been edited by GypsyComet (edited 02 July 2001).]
Emperor Cleon
SOC-8
For many years I was an avid GURPS player, and I still might find a use for it sometime in the future. But I disagree with those who say that Traveller is the 3rd Imperium universe and that the game system is irrelevant. For me, Traveller is a game system, not a background universe. Yes, you can use the 3rd Imperium universe in GURPS, as well as any other generic system. But, in my opinion, if you do you aren't playing Traveller.
The above applies to D20 Traveller as well. I won't buy or play it, or GURPS Traveller, because in my mind it's NOT Traveller.
Having said that, let me also say that I have nothing against these game systems or those gamers that prefer them. I'm just not interested in them myself.
[This message has been edited by Emperor Cleon (edited 03 July 2001).]
The above applies to D20 Traveller as well. I won't buy or play it, or GURPS Traveller, because in my mind it's NOT Traveller.
Having said that, let me also say that I have nothing against these game systems or those gamers that prefer them. I'm just not interested in them myself.
[This message has been edited by Emperor Cleon (edited 03 July 2001).]
Anyone that wants to know about GURPS should pick up a copy of GURPS:Lite (a free download from the SJGames website). It contains all the core rules and the basics of chargen. The main rulebook just adds more trimmings. Yes, a lot of the main rulebook is taken up with character info but personally I wouldn't use most of it. Same goes for the combat rules.
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Paul
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Paul
When it comes to Traveller, I've always enjoyed the simplicity of the characters generated under CT (and MT for that matter). Sure, there's a lot of dice rolling and I ignore the survival rule but I can tell at a glance what the chacater is capable of. Ships are easier to design under CT than GURPS. Last, I too find some of the aliens created for GT to be unsatisfactory (check out SJG's fourth Ailens volume for examples).
Having said this though, GURPS has provided some interesting background information and has helped keep the game going.
Having said this though, GURPS has provided some interesting background information and has helped keep the game going.
Personally , I love GURPS for the wealth of background info ( for traveller) I own most of the books. My biggest problem with GURPS traveller is its point based Chargen system. Nothing is left to chance. players simply design the most powerful characters they can, until you've got a party of super characters. (yatch equipped, psionic,nobility,with high strength, who never miss.) So If you're playing traveller with point based system designed characters...You're NOT playing traveller, You're playing CHAMPIONS with spaceships
FlightCommanderSolitude
SOC-13
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Players simply design the most powerful characters they can, until you've got a party of super characters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't played GURPS for more than a decade, and have never played G:T - but it seems the obvious solution here is to provide fewer points to build characters with.
Of course, I loved the character creation in The Fantasy Trip: start with Str 8 and Dex 8, and add 8 more points as you see fit; add a name and a weapon and you're pretty much done.
-FCS
I haven't played GURPS for more than a decade, and have never played G:T - but it seems the obvious solution here is to provide fewer points to build characters with.
Of course, I loved the character creation in The Fantasy Trip: start with Str 8 and Dex 8, and add 8 more points as you see fit; add a name and a weapon and you're pretty much done.
-FCS
I used to be a big Car Wars fan. When SJG announced they were expanind the RPing aspect in Car Wars, I was excited. Then I saw GURPS, and saw the space system in Car Wars reworked to cubic feet. I also took note of a number of other changes, and didn't care for it much after that. I didn't want to buy another God-D*** system that didn't interface with a game I loved, but yet was based on the same fiction. There was no reason for it, and in my ever so humfelt opinion, screwed with loyal Car Wars fans who also happen to like RPGs.
Occasionally I visit a huge gaming store, and find a shelf dedicated to the GURPs system, and see the number of genres and "universes" they've incorporated into their game mechanics. For myself it's a kind of standardization of RPing, and believe it or not, as much as I fantasize and attempt to put a MACROSS VF-1S Valkryie into a AD&D setting, I don't want some RPing form of "Globalization" to do it for me.
Having said that, I must confess I really have nothing for nor against the GURPS version of Traveller. It's there. Use it if you want, but don't gripe about it because no one's forcing you to use it, and there is the old standby waiting for you exploit. I may just go buy some of the GURPS alien moduals just to keep on top of what's new and developed for my favorite Sci-Fi RPG.
Occasionally I visit a huge gaming store, and find a shelf dedicated to the GURPs system, and see the number of genres and "universes" they've incorporated into their game mechanics. For myself it's a kind of standardization of RPing, and believe it or not, as much as I fantasize and attempt to put a MACROSS VF-1S Valkryie into a AD&D setting, I don't want some RPing form of "Globalization" to do it for me.
Having said that, I must confess I really have nothing for nor against the GURPS version of Traveller. It's there. Use it if you want, but don't gripe about it because no one's forcing you to use it, and there is the old standby waiting for you exploit. I may just go buy some of the GURPS alien moduals just to keep on top of what's new and developed for my favorite Sci-Fi RPG.
Secrect Cow Level
SOC-12
I've never played GURPS so I can't comment on the game system. However, I have no problem with TRAVELLER being played using something other than CT. The bottom line is that TRAVELLER is game that is meant to be fun. What rules you use or don't use is unimportant so long as the game is fun for you and your group. GURPS has its place just like CT, MT, and T20. Also, considering I can find GURPS TRAVELLER in any game store in the Twin Cities while I've found only one store that has FFE CT reprints, I'd have to say that GURPS is doing a more effective job of keeping TRAVELLER alive.
Christopher Jennings
SOC-9
Personally, I've never liked the Gurps system primarily because I've never really had the talent for having alot of preconcieved notions about a character. For me it was always a help that the character generation process laid a "history" to help build an understanding of what this character might end up being and what might have happened to shape them.
That being said, I admit that I own many of the Gurps suppliments because as a source they take a back seat to nobody. I'm even glad that they promote an alternative path for the Imperium even though I don't follow that path. It's kind of nice to see what might have been as opposed to trying to rebuild from the ashes of the past.
That being said, I admit that I own many of the Gurps suppliments because as a source they take a back seat to nobody. I'm even glad that they promote an alternative path for the Imperium even though I don't follow that path. It's kind of nice to see what might have been as opposed to trying to rebuild from the ashes of the past.
I happen to like GURPS, and I like it BECAUSE it is a point-based system. I like being able to craft exactly the character I want to play. I guess I never had problems creating a character concept and bringing that character to life. It was always frustrating to me to HAVE a character concept and play when the character on paper was nothing at all like the character in my head.
While character generation can be a hurdle for first-timers, there are software utilities that take the burden of math and point tracking off the player and let him focus on crafting an interesting character. Once you get the hang of it, character creation becomes a meta-game in itself. Honestly, character creation is one of my favorite parts of playing most RPGs.
Anyone who has played CHAMPIONS already knows equal points does not automatically mean equally “powerful” characters.
And the “yacht equipped, psionic, noble with high strength who never miss” is a sign of a player who is a jerk and a GM who is a wimp. I won’t play with either. “No Munchkins Allowed!” In fact, I constantly frustrate my gaming group because I usually try to convince the GM to give us FEWER points to make our characters.
While character generation can be a hurdle for first-timers, there are software utilities that take the burden of math and point tracking off the player and let him focus on crafting an interesting character. Once you get the hang of it, character creation becomes a meta-game in itself. Honestly, character creation is one of my favorite parts of playing most RPGs.
Anyone who has played CHAMPIONS already knows equal points does not automatically mean equally “powerful” characters.
And the “yacht equipped, psionic, noble with high strength who never miss” is a sign of a player who is a jerk and a GM who is a wimp. I won’t play with either. “No Munchkins Allowed!” In fact, I constantly frustrate my gaming group because I usually try to convince the GM to give us FEWER points to make our characters.
Although I am not a GURPS rules player, I love the way GURPS supplements are designed to be usable in all campaigns, I once adapted the GURPS Prisoner supplement for an AD&D game and all had a laugh! The GURPS Traveller stuff is generally good, in particular, I like the Spinward Marches book, the Merchant book and to some degree the Solomani Rim book - IMO they all have the spirit of Traveller.
However, I don't like GURPS as a system and use the MegaTraveller rules for all campaigns that I run.
The only thing I have never liked about SJG is the house sense of humour - but then, I can forgive that as one not my own!!!!
However, I don't like GURPS as a system and use the MegaTraveller rules for all campaigns that I run.
The only thing I have never liked about SJG is the house sense of humour - but then, I can forgive that as one not my own!!!!
GURPS is a serviceable generic RPG engine. I once loved it but I can't stand playing it anymore for a series of reasons.
GURPS stands as a generic system. As such, it tries to describe every single aspect possible necessary to define a character or equipment. The skills, advantages, and disadvantages lists are too long (not so in the basic book but definetly in the compendium, which was latter incorportated as a basic book). I disagree about this design option. I think that the extensive lists only augments the need for bookeeping and does not increase the joy of playing. I would rather have a smaller list of skills and a generic advantage/disadvantage list which the referee could use as a guideline to the needs of the player.
Second, I don't like the way GURPS handle combat. It is boring. A round take a second, which means that, if a character is not in place at the start of the combat, he will not have time to arrive, as GURPS does not take hesitation in account and combat takes only a few rounds. Also, the system requires a to hit roll and a defense roll (which means that is kind of slow). Most of the combat oriented experience characters would have excellent defensive stats and, as such, will be very difficult to be hit (if a hit happens, however, GURPS is very deadly).
Concluding, I think that GURPS fails in be a good generic system because it is too detailed. I would rather prefer a less detailed character generation system with guidelines than the extensive GURPS's lists that requires several volumes and take a reasonable dedication to the referee to master them. Finally, if you still wants to use GURPS I would recommend you to stay with GURPS light. Character generation is the same but not so detailed and they stick with basic combat, which might be a good idea afterall.
[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 14 July 2001).]
GURPS stands as a generic system. As such, it tries to describe every single aspect possible necessary to define a character or equipment. The skills, advantages, and disadvantages lists are too long (not so in the basic book but definetly in the compendium, which was latter incorportated as a basic book). I disagree about this design option. I think that the extensive lists only augments the need for bookeeping and does not increase the joy of playing. I would rather have a smaller list of skills and a generic advantage/disadvantage list which the referee could use as a guideline to the needs of the player.
Second, I don't like the way GURPS handle combat. It is boring. A round take a second, which means that, if a character is not in place at the start of the combat, he will not have time to arrive, as GURPS does not take hesitation in account and combat takes only a few rounds. Also, the system requires a to hit roll and a defense roll (which means that is kind of slow). Most of the combat oriented experience characters would have excellent defensive stats and, as such, will be very difficult to be hit (if a hit happens, however, GURPS is very deadly).
Concluding, I think that GURPS fails in be a good generic system because it is too detailed. I would rather prefer a less detailed character generation system with guidelines than the extensive GURPS's lists that requires several volumes and take a reasonable dedication to the referee to master them. Finally, if you still wants to use GURPS I would recommend you to stay with GURPS light. Character generation is the same but not so detailed and they stick with basic combat, which might be a good idea afterall.
[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 14 July 2001).]
You should remember the era that GURPS was created in. The mid 80's, when everyone thought that AD&D was not detailed enough. Or that Rifts wasn't realistic enough. Gurps is a good game (IMHO), but it suffers from too much tinkering added on to the basic game. As I have matured as a gamer I have looked for less detail and maore flexability. Some older players can fill in the blanks with their imaginations. That to me makes for a more injoyable time.
You should remember the era that GURPS was created in. The mid 80's, when everyone thought that AD&D was not detailed enough. Or that Rifts wasn't realistic enough. Gurps is a good game (IMHO), but it suffers from too much tinkering added on to the basic game. As I have matured as a gamer I have looked for less detail and maore flexability. Some older players can fill in the blanks with their imaginations. That to me makes for a more injoyable time.
Tsarith DeGaalth
SOC-5
<Quote Cut for Length>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
Concluding, I think that GURPS fails in be a good generic system because it is too detailed. I would rather prefer a less detailed character generation system with guidelines than the extensive GURPS's lists that requires several volumes and take a reasonable dedication to the referee to master them. Finally, if you still wants to use GURPS I would recommend you to stay with GURPS light. Character generation is the same but not so detailed and they stick with basic combat, which might be a good idea afterall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with most of your points - but the last one is one a I really understand. My group switched over to Big Eyes Small Mouths about 3-4 months ago because it was so much simpler. Now we can concentrate on playing, instead of trying to make charactes or look up rules.
This is one of the reasons I like playing with CT. We add in the BITS Task system and the game just plays so fast, and we need so little times for rules.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
Concluding, I think that GURPS fails in be a good generic system because it is too detailed. I would rather prefer a less detailed character generation system with guidelines than the extensive GURPS's lists that requires several volumes and take a reasonable dedication to the referee to master them. Finally, if you still wants to use GURPS I would recommend you to stay with GURPS light. Character generation is the same but not so detailed and they stick with basic combat, which might be a good idea afterall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with most of your points - but the last one is one a I really understand. My group switched over to Big Eyes Small Mouths about 3-4 months ago because it was so much simpler. Now we can concentrate on playing, instead of trying to make charactes or look up rules.
This is one of the reasons I like playing with CT. We add in the BITS Task system and the game just plays so fast, and we need so little times for rules.
