Gunnery skill in Space Combat (probable errata)
- Thread starter DonM
- Start date
Well, part of the problem is simply that realistically, it's hard to have gunnery skill matter much. You could try adding the gunnery skill as an additional DM, but then you'd need to have another to counter it. (The defender's pilot's pilot skill?) Replacing the penetration DM is obviously not good, but maybe they mean the DM to hit from the weapon's factor? That might work, although it makes gunnery skill unimportant for ships with good computers and powerful batteries.
I can agree that with good computers most of the weapon firing in starships would be mainly by computer work, but that would make Gunnery skill nearly useless, and, frankly, as skills are the greatest asset characters have, I hate useless skills. In this sense, you could as well put an untrained guy to work your turret in your free trader, and he will do as good as one with turret gunnery skill 1 (I guess he wouldn't use its skill -4 instead of the computer modifier).
Even so, if you pitch your untrained gunner (so -4, or raising difficult level by one grade), with a single missile turret (factor 2) in a computer 6 equiped ship against a ship equiped with a repulsor 6 equiped ship, it would be worth to use your -4 skill instead of the -8 DM in the table, as rules are written. I guess we all agree this is not the spirit of the rules...
I guess Aramis has resumed all this in another thread about other aspects of MT starship combat:
Even so, if you pitch your untrained gunner (so -4, or raising difficult level by one grade), with a single missile turret (factor 2) in a computer 6 equiped ship against a ship equiped with a repulsor 6 equiped ship, it would be worth to use your -4 skill instead of the -8 DM in the table, as rules are written. I guess we all agree this is not the spirit of the rules...
I guess Aramis has resumed all this in another thread about other aspects of MT starship combat:
No, it doesn't answer my question, only that I see the same problem Aramis said there, bad editing.
Anyway, I guess some way to use the skill should be defined, as the way it's written in the rules gives way to much abuse (as told above) or to usefulness of the skill.
Anyway, I guess some way to use the skill should be defined, as the way it's written in the rules gives way to much abuse (as told above) or to usefulness of the skill.
The whole chapter is a problem... But that particular rule really isn't, tho' it probably should be (Int+Gunnery) or Computer.
After all, most gunners will be int 7, gunner 1, and be outclassed by a Model 2... the battery PO's are likely to be Gunnery 2 and int 10... and outclassed by the Model 4. The gunnery chiefs are usually going to be in the skill 4 range, and outclassed by the Model 6...
And most military ships carry Model 7+ computers.
The Gunnery skill isn't useless, tho'. It's also used for maintenance and repair tasks. Hence why those guys actually have the skill in the first place.
I agree the whole chapter is a problem. As you will remember, I asked also about the general use of skills in space combat, as I also see Ship's Tactics use as abusive, given the size of the crews, Pilot use as problematic, etc... But I guess that's for other threads
As I see the rule Gunnery skill (turret/bay, spinal or screens) may be used in place of computer DM or weapon table DM on the to hit and defensive tasks, I always understood it as Gunnery skill, not modifier, so I never featured int modifier into it. I guess that's a matter of interpretation.
As you say, its use in place of computer DM is not problematic, though, as it's plain and clear, if your computer is superior, let it do the work.
The main problem is when its used Gunnery skill (turret/bay, spinal or screens) may be used in place of (...)or weapon table DM on the to hit and defensive tasks. Here, moslty on the latter part (defensive tasks) is where I see the main problem, as points 2 and 3 of the quote DonM gives us in its initial post show.
While I see logic in what you say here, I don't see that reflected in the rules:
PM page35:
Gunnery is a specific naval skill in the operation and use of one of the several types of starship armament.
I see no reference here to maintenance and repair. As skills are described, this will be handled by mechanics (non energy weapons, so missiles and sancasters) or electronics (lasers and energy weapons). As I read it, nowhere says those uses of Mechanic or Electronics are limited to personal weapons, so I understand it also referes to vehicle/starship weaponry
Last edited:
E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
Use Gunnery in place of Computer DM, and dump the "or weapon table DM".
That way skilled gunners in PC type ships can have an affect on play, but it makes no difference to fleet actions.
Best regards,
Ewan
That way skilled gunners in PC type ships can have an affect on play, but it makes no difference to fleet actions.
Best regards,
Ewan
Peter Newman
SOC-12
Of course smaller ships will usually have smaller computers, and ships computer capability can be degraded by combat (in most versions of the rules), so Gunnery skill will be more useful on smaller and combat damaged ships.
It seems to me that Gunnery skill models a reality in which Merchant ships need good gunners more than Naval ships do, because the Naval ships have such good computers.
It reminds me of how Thorby Baslim went from a firecontrolman on the merchant ship Sisu, to a gunnery crewman on the the Hegemonic Naval ship in Heinlein's 'Citizen of the Galaxy.'
http://books.google.com/books? id=wksN1qnkooAC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=%22get+a+hit+with+that+junk%22&source=bl&ots=zx17CNEctU&sig=oGNjKn24P5QOZuRfdXGaXJEnyD8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DY9tT6enGMfjiALfoMSxBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20a%20hit%20with%20that%20junk%22&f=false
It seems to me that Gunnery skill models a reality in which Merchant ships need good gunners more than Naval ships do, because the Naval ships have such good computers.
It reminds me of how Thorby Baslim went from a firecontrolman on the merchant ship Sisu, to a gunnery crewman on the the Hegemonic Naval ship in Heinlein's 'Citizen of the Galaxy.'
http://books.google.com/books? id=wksN1qnkooAC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=%22get+a+hit+with+that+junk%22&source=bl&ots=zx17CNEctU&sig=oGNjKn24P5QOZuRfdXGaXJEnyD8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DY9tT6enGMfjiALfoMSxBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22get%20a%20hit%20with%20that%20junk%22&f=false
When I tried to use MT starship combat system, I borrowed from HG the idea of using (skill-1)/2 modifier. I used it for ship's tactics skill, as in HG, for pilot, also as HG, but allowing agility to be at most doubled, and for gunnery skill, both in to hit and to penetrate (but in the latter case the skill of the defending gunner was confronted).
One of the criticisms I've made about CT:HG was it didn't feature crew quality (only ship's tactics and Pilot may have some influence). MT (in HT, IIRC) featured it in the average skills the crew had, but gave (IMHO) the worst use of skills (about starship combat, not in other fields) I've seen in any Traveller version.
christopher.boote
SOC-12
What if that was rewritten to say
Gunnery skill (turret/bay or spinal) may be used in place of (...) weapon table DM on the to hit task
Gunnery skill (screens) may be used in place of (...) screen table DM on the defensive tasks
Gunnery skill (turret) may be used in place of (...) laser table DM on the defensive tasks
Would that make it more logical?
I see some of the same problems here:
Quite usable
(bold part is addition from mine)
This makes this skill quite powerful. Imagine you have a level 1 meson screen crewed by a Skill 2 gunner. You're attacked by a battleship with a T rated spinal meson. You substitute the +7 in the table by a -2 for your skill. Suddenly, your tiny meson screen became Yamato's armor...
Same as above. Your single laser (factor 1 battery) with a skill level 1 gunner attacked by 9 rated battery missiles. Modifier +11 becomes -1...
If anything, the skill should be added (substracted if defensively used) to the modifiers, not substitute it.
christopher.boote
SOC-12
That makes perfect sense to me - and that's probably why it wasn't in MT
So...
Gunnery skill (turret/bay or spinal) of the attacking gunner may be used as a favourable DM on the 'to hit' task
Gunnery skill (screens) of the defending gunner may be used as an unfavourable DM on the 'to hit' task
Gunnery skill (turret) of the defending gunner may be used as a favourable DM on the anti-missile defensive tasks
That makes perfect sense to me - and that's probably why it wasn't in MT
So...
Gunnery skill (screens) of the defending gunner may be used as an unfavourable DM on the 'to hit' task
Better to the 'to penetrate'...
Last edited:
No, I wouldn't think so (if you meant it would produce a positive DM for that).
christopher.boote
SOC-12
No, the defending gunner's Screens skill applies as a negative DM to the 'to penetrate' roll
Sorry, I interpreted your "better" as signifying you meant a positive DM, and disagreed with that.
