GunMaker Question?

[Conspiracy]

I don't see any way of recreating the Guass Pistol TL-13.

Have I missed something? Or is it not possible under T5 rules!

 

[cuTTer]

No, you haven't missed anything, GM offers regular, accelerator, laser and machine pistols.

There are no gauss pistols in the T5 dojo.

However, given there is no difference in the Handguns and Long Guns profile for Accelerators, and only a range and expense differential with Lasers, you're probably safe to assume the effect mods would read the same.

 

[BytePro]

Is the Gauss pistol an accelerator?

 

[Reban]

I've been making Gauss carbines and calling them Gauss Pistols. There's a scientific reason for this; Gauss weapons should be heavier than the conventional slug thrower equivalents, and probably a little longer in the "barrel", due to the weight of the coils that accelerate the projectile.

The most important thing I've learnt about GunMaker is not to be bound by the longname produced. If a Gauss Carbine will fill the niche of a Gauss Pistol IYTU call it that.

If I want to build a mortar, I'll build a gun or a grenade launcher and call it a "mortar".

If I produce a machine pistol that seems bigger than most pistols I'll call it a "compact submachinegun".


Note down the Longname and all the details, then call the weapon according to the name or type you think it fits best.

 

[cuTTer]

I've been making Gauss carbines and calling them Gauss Pistols.

That's one way to go...

There's a scientific reason for this;

Do tell...

Gauss weapons should be heavier than the conventional slug thrower equivalents, and probably a little longer in the "barrel", due to the weight of the coils that accelerate the projectile.

I hear what you're saying but given that the Mass modifier of the Descriptor 'Gauss' on p.252 is x0.9 it seems to suggest that the huge +7 modifier to the base TL implies a refinement of the technology.

Bigger weapons will have shown up along the way to the (St)GP-13. Experimental models (TL-10) are x2.0 Mass, Early models (TL-11) x1.7 Mass and for the budget minded Basic (TL-12) models are x1.3 Mass at x0.7 Cr, but by the time the weapon is 'Standard' (TL-13) it's x0.9 Mass.

To generate a GP-13 I would just take a basic TL-5 pistol and apply the mods from the Long Guns Gauss descriptor (that brings it to TL-12) then apply the Stage 'Standard' on p.253 to bring the TL up to the desired 13. It should look something like this...

TL 13
Range 2
Mass 0.99
qreBs 0
D Bullet-3
Cr 300
Recoil Yes
Loud Yes
Flash Mag
Heat -
Vacc -
UW No
CQ +2
Option -
Weapon Markings Off Single Burst

I think that's everything.

 

[Conspiracy]

Thanks cuTTer. That's what I was leaning towards doing.

 

[cuTTer]

Yes but no...

Thanks cuTTer. That's what I was leaning towards doing.

It's a work in progress, I've corrected the damage above to Bullet-3 because I think I've been adding when I should have been using the highest value of a given pair. But then if Stage 'Standard' adds 1 to D then it would be Bullet-4. I'm obviously going to have to go back and have another look at how it works.

Sorry for the confusion...

 

[Reban]

I hear what you're saying but given that the Mass modifier of the Descriptor 'Gauss' on p.252 is x0.9 it seems to suggest that the huge +7 modifier to the base TL implies a refinement of the technology.

Fair enough. The standard version produces a very reasonable weapon, which is still heavier than the TL9 Ultimate Pistol. What about if you do an ultimate version of the Gauss Pistol? Does it produce unreasonable results?

Actually no. Its TL16 Range=2 Mass 0.69kg R +2 B -2 Bullet-6 420Cr

I'd advocate for Gauss being an option under Pistols. In fact I's say you could go beyond the tables and try any combination of options and use them if they produce reasonable results.

 

[Reban]

I think I've been adding when I should have been using the highest value of a given pair. But then if Stage 'Standard' adds 1 to D then it would be Bullet-4. I'm obviously going to have to go back and have another look at how it works.

Highest value of a given pair? Where do you get that from. I thought it was a simple addition.

Now the way Standard adds +1 to TL and an extra D I am skeptical about, but I'm waiting for the next Errata to come out.

 

[cuTTer]

Highest value of a given pair? Where do you get that from. I thought it was a simple addition.

So did I, but that got me a GP-13 with base 1D + gauss 3D + standard 1D for a total of 5D.

The gauss carbine of p.240 is 3D at TL-12, the 3D of its gaussiness replacing the 1D of its carbinity, not adding to it. Even if you were to bump the design up to TL-13 with standardisation it would still only come out at 4D.

Here's another example, p.258, the PGMP-11 has PEN 3 and BURN 3 listed for effects. The 3D of its H2 value is not added to the 2D of it's H1 value, it supercedes it.

In truth I'm still not sure how I WANT it to work, nevermind how it's INTENDED to work, as I feel at the moment that armour could be overpowered, but that's an issue for another thread I guess.

I'd welcome anyone elses take on this by the way.

 

[cuTTer]

Now the way Standard adds +1 to TL and an extra D I am skeptical about, but I'm waiting for the next Errata to come out.

I know what you mean, but with practical damage being a result to a straight up contest of between nD and Ar I think weapons need to hang on to any D they can get.

Standard Battle Dress (TL-14, p.240) has 45 Armour. That means a weapon has to be doing 8D of damage to stand a chance, a CHANCE of getting through, and it's a pretty damn small chance at that.

Looking at the GunMaker samples the (St) BD-14 shares it's page with, I think our marine is pretty safe. Now I'll admit there aren't any TL-14 weapons on that page but I haven't worked through any designs yet to see if he has anything to fear.

 

[atpollard]

I don't see any way of recreating the Guass Pistol TL-13.
Have I missed something? Or is it not possible under T5 rules!

I take no credit for this, but simply point out some excellent Makers programmed in Perl on Eaglestone Pocket Empires:

T5 Gun Maker

For Example:

Code  : StGP-13
Name  : Std Gauss Pistol-13
Range : 2
Mass  : 0.99
Burden: 0
Damage: (5D) Bullet-5 
Cost  : 300


Code        Name                      Damage and Hits      Mass  R Bu     Cost 
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- -------- 
StGP-13     Gauss Pistol              (5) Bullet-5         0.99  2 0       300

Use the e-mail feature ... it was a hoot.

 

[Reban]

So did I, but that got me a GP-13 with base 1D + gauss 3D + standard 1D for a total of 5D.

The gauss carbine of p.240 is 3D at TL-12, the 3D of its gaussiness replacing the 1D of its carbinity, not adding to it. Even if you were to bump the design up to TL-13 with standardisation it would still only come out at 4D.

I've never trusted that list on p240, its shambolic. The Deliberate design instructions say:

Totals
For each column, compute the totals. Tech Levels sum.
Ranges sum. Some entries under Mass multiply. Burdens sum. Combine identical Effects and sum their hit dice. Some costs multiply.

My emphasis there on summing identical Effects. So if you get Bullet-1 and Bullet-2 they sum to give Bullet-3.

Here's another example, p.258, the PGMP-11 has PEN 3 and BURN 3 listed for effects. The 3D of its H2 value is not added to the 2D of it's H1 value, it supercedes it.

Yep people have been drawing attention to this example as being broken for a long time now. The most likely explanation is that Pen has been added up wrong.

GunMaker uses = when it wants to supersede earlier values and "set" a particular value. This is most often seen in Range values.

 

[atpollard]

Standard Battle Dress (TL-14, p.240) has 45 Armour. That means a weapon has to be doing 8D of damage to stand a chance, a CHANCE of getting through, and it's a pretty damn small chance at that.

I can't speak for its legality under the rules (I don't have T5), but playing with the Eaglestone Weapon Maker:

Code  : StVhGCMP-13
Name  : Std Vh Gauss Carbine Man Portable-13
Range : 9
Mass  : 10.8
Burden: 5
Damage: (10D) Bullet-10 
Cost  : 4,000


Code        Name                      Damage and Hits      Mass  R Bu     Cost 
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- -------- 
StVhGCMP-13 Gauss Carbine Man Portable (10) Bullet-10       10.8  9 5     4,000

TL 13 and 8D ... so Penetration is possible (from your post).

 

[cuTTer]

I've never trusted that list on p240, its shambolic.

Oh right...

My emphasis there on summing identical Effects. So if you get Bullet-1 and Bullet-2 they sum to give Bullet-3.

Sweet, that suits me much better.

Yep people have been drawing attention to this example as being broken for a long time now.

How long a time, before the book went off to the printers?

The most likely explanation is that Pen has been added up wrong.

Is there a suggestion the initial * 2 should be added to the PEN 3?

GunMaker uses = when it wants to supersede earlier values and "set" a particular value. This is most often seen in Range values.

Gotcha. My speadsheet-fu may not be up to all this

 

[Reban]

I'm using and loving the Eaglestone GunMaker as well. Its uses the free combination of Descriptors and Weapons Effects which is cool and gives a wider range of interesting result. The GunMaker tables in the core book limit some of the options leading to things like no Gauss Pistols unless you apply the Gauss descriptor to the Pistol type.


@cuTTer yes I agree about saving every D you can which makes summing identical weapons effects more likely than superseding. I'm just wondering what you are building before you make the choice to apply the Standard Stage effect. Usually something is assumed to be the "standard" variety of that thing unless you state otherwise. A lot of the errata on stage effects so far has been referring people to the master stage effects table on p500. Anyway its just my hobby pony

 

[Reban]

How long a time, before the book went off to the printers?

I think it appeared in the penultimate draft. In fairness I should say people have been querying that example rather than saying it was broken. We need more examples to draw conclusions.

Is there a suggestion the initial * 2 should be added to the PEN 3?

This is how I'd do it. Under the Categories Table it explains H1 and D1. For gun it gives the note that "hit Type is determined by other details of the weapon". In the FillForm, which is the ultimate guide on how the process works, H1 and H2 are in the same column. H2 for the Plasma descriptor is PEN so D1 for a Plasma Gun will become PEN aswell. So we have PEN-2 and PEN-3 in the same column. They are identical effects so it sums as PEN-5

PEN-5 may defeat any armor with an AV29 or less. AV30 will just resist it.


Does that sound right?

 

[cuTTer]

Does that sound right?

It sounds better certainly.

 

[cuTTer]

I have another question...

As you pointed out p.243 states,

"For each column, compute the totals. Tech Levels sum. Ranges sum. Some entries under Mass multiply. Burdens sum. Combine identical Effects and sum their hit dice. Some costs multiply."

Are we sure the 'D' column of p.253 only adds to the 'D1/D2' column of the Weapon FillForm (p.250) and not the 'D3' column as well?

I now see the PGMP-11 should be PEN 5 BURN 3, because the D2 only adds to the D1 but if we were to make it a HPGMP would it not make sense for it to be PEN 6 BURN 4?

 

[Reban]

Thats a good point. I see that the added D under Burden and Stage is undifferentiated as either D1 or D2.

If you look at the H3 Weapons Effects they are secondary and based on the H1 and H2 effects.

I'm not sure these effects would increase in the same way as the "main" effects. The examples I've seen have all added the D to the D1 D2 column and not the D3 column.

But its a good point you make. Why not increase all the effects by the number of dice given.


Anyone have ideas?