RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I've got my copy.
<read, read, read>
<read, read, read>
GT: Nobles
- Thread starter RainOfSteel
- Start date
Tony Canopus
SOC-11
Whaddya think so far?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
It seems an odd cross of intents.
On one hand, it reinforces canon stated in previous material.
On the other hand, it's wishy washy about some previous canon.
On the third hand, it tosses into play some stuff that never existed before.
On the fourth hand, it missed the opportunity to correct some things that seemed like obvious flaws in the original canon.
1) The most glaring oddity is the addition of a new noble rank: Viscount.
A Viscount rules over a "cluster of worlds". Also, previous canon is reinforced by stating that Counts also rule over a "cluster of worlds". However, nowhere in the entire history of the game has this "cluster of worlds" thingamagigit been defined.
There is a fan site out there that has divided up several Spinward Marches subsectors into "counties" for Counts to rule over. But this is beside the point. The OTU has never, to date, incorporated "counties" or "clusters of worlds" as units of its government in any materials I can recall (yes, I don't have even 1/2 of OTU products, but still, there should have been some mention of it in the more prominent and common publications).
Worse, while the OTU has always divided up the title of Duke (an inexplicable division) to cover two regions, subsectors and sectors, now we have two titles--Viscount and Count--covering the same region ("clusters of worlds"; a "region" that exists not at all, giving them nothing to do).
To me, it's always been clear that the Imperium was the "federal" level, the Domains were phased out and impotent (CT:Library Supplement 11: Domains), the Sectors were "states", the Subsectors were "counties", and the worlds were "cities".
Emperor: Imperium
Archduke: Powerless (before Strephon's reforms after 1110)
Duke: Sector
Count: Subsector
Margrave*: Mainworlds (German version of Marquis; synonymous)
Barons: Non-Mainworlds
[*I always thought that if Marquis was used at all, then Duke should be Duc, etc.]
One Title = One level of government = No confusion for the governed.
In the description of Archdukes, it completely skips over the stripping of the powers of the Archdukes after the Civil War. I thought the whole affair was being officially de-canonized, and that they'd retained their powers to the 1110 era (which would partially go to explain how Gateway to Destiny's backdrop about the "new" Archduke being able to give orders other parts of the Imperial Government would pay attention to, could actually work); although that would have meant that part of the Rebellion Era timeline where Strephon gave power "back to" the Archdukes would have been a bit off, but since I'm not a fan of the MT Timeline, that wouldn't have mattered much to me. Then, much further into the book, in a sort of backhand way, it's mentioned that by 1110, the Archducal Title has become "hollow" and without much power, without exactly saying how (Arbellatra's successors took it away from them).
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Oh, a review! Heh, and right after I said such nice things in the previous response. Ah well. Let's see.
GT:Nobles
Pros:
Honestly, I thought it was quite well written.
Covers all the aspects of Imperial Nobility, plus contains space devoted to the various other nation's nobility.
The best part, to me, are the character write-ups in the back. Strephon, Iolanthe, Iphegenia (Doctor Iphegenia!), Norris, and many others. I could have gone on reading a longer version of this section for a long, long, long, looooooonnng time. For instance, it covers all the Archdukes (and has floorplans (in GURPS hexes! Eeek!) for Tranian's (the Archduke of Gateway) three floor "mansion" at the top (or near the top) of a skyscraper in Cleon City on Capital/Core.
I also very much liked the descriptions of several major Noble families (like the Tukera family). Ditto the above on how much time I could spend reading a longer version of this section.
Many other goodies. Description of various knight's orders (and the symbols for the Domain Orders)
Cons:
Provides an additional new noble title, Viscount, that joins the Count with having no officially defined region to govern.
Missed the chance to separate Sector Duke and Subsector Duke into two titles with separate names, saving people from having to type or write Sector and Subsector in front of Duke billions of times to avoid confusion when discussing either (and saving the confusion among Imperial Citizens, as well).
Missed the chance to either explain in detail how and why the Archdukes lost their powers, or to get rid of that incident entirely.
Uses GURPS for all mechanics definitions. GURPS products do not contain conversion systems to translate characters, backgrouds (and AFAIK, there is no conversion for GT:Credits/CT:Credits), and techical designs into the other Traveller systems. That said, as a book that largely skips much mechanics usage beyond character write ups (there is a yacht, and that's in GURPS, too), the impact to non-GURPS users isn't as severe as it is for, say, GT:Far Trader, or GT:Starships.
Final:
Hey, I'm practically broke, and I bought it! That should tell you something.
M
Malenfant
Guest
hrmm. I wonder if the things that RainOfSteel mentioned above would have made it through if the book had been given a proper, open playtest on JTAS. As it was, it had a closed playtest that people had to sign up for. Maybe this is a bad sign?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Oh, I'm quite happy with my purchase. My money was well spent. 
M
Malenfant
Guest
I wasn't implying that you weren't happy with it
. It just sounded a little uncharacteristic of the usual fact-checking and proofreading that happens in a normal playtest...
I too have aquired a copy the GT:N. I've spent a few days reading through it and present a review. I'll start with a discussion of the contents.
Chapter 1: History. A discussion of the history of nobility in the Imperium, discussing Terran, Vilani and Sylean nobility. A fairly short chapter.
Chapter 2: Nobility. A discussion the classes of nobility, the ranks of nobility with their titles. Finally is a listing of Imperial knighthoods.
Chapter 3: The noble life. This is a longer chapter giving an overview of the education and lives of the nobility. Discussed are inhertance of titles, marriage, maintenace of estates, and pastimes. There are some luxuries discussed (including Tokaj Eszencia). There is also a discussion of the Imperial nobility and imperial law and their interactions. The chapter ends with a discussion of life on Capital and the imperial palace.
Chater 4: Duites and Responsibilites: Basically what the Imperial Nobility does. Specifics include the Imperial Navy, Army, the Imperial Civial Ministries, the Imperial Court and the Moot. There are some ideas here for incorporating Noble characters into a campaign.
Chapter 5: Variations. Disscussion of the Alien races take on nobility, both in the Imperium and in their own empires. There is a short discussion of Planetary nobility as well. The chapter also contains a list of potential noble titles from 15 different Terran languages.
Chapter 6: Biographies. Contains biographies of the Emperor, Empress, the Princess, the two princes, the Archdukes, and a few other named nobility from Traveller history. These are from the point of view of the GT alternate history, so much of the MT and TNE biographies are missing/wrong.
Chapter 7: Characters. A short chapter of GURPS rules, including some advantages and templates, mostly as they apply to Nobles and the GT universe.
Chapter 8: Campaigns. This is a discussion of some specific ideas on how to run campaigns based around the nobility in Traveller.
This book is what the D20 crowd would call a "Fluffy" book (as opposed to a crunchy book). Except for Chapter 7, the entire book is entirely devoid of any GURPS rules what so ever.
Overall, I would give this book an 8 of 10. It makes an honerable end to the GURPS 3rd edition books. It is extremely well written, if (to my eye) a little disoganized. It varies between the general discussion and specifics without revealing any secrets. Some of the areas are maddenly vague until you get to the final chapter where the author addresses why and how to fix it.
If you have any interest in Noble characters in Traveller, or having a nobility IYTU or getting ideas how nobility work in a futuristic society, this book is a must. If you think nobiliy is a boring anachranism, but still looking for some ideas to torture/reward your players or background for the Traveller (or other) universe, I would recommend at least a look through.
Chapter 1: History. A discussion of the history of nobility in the Imperium, discussing Terran, Vilani and Sylean nobility. A fairly short chapter.
Chapter 2: Nobility. A discussion the classes of nobility, the ranks of nobility with their titles. Finally is a listing of Imperial knighthoods.
Chapter 3: The noble life. This is a longer chapter giving an overview of the education and lives of the nobility. Discussed are inhertance of titles, marriage, maintenace of estates, and pastimes. There are some luxuries discussed (including Tokaj Eszencia). There is also a discussion of the Imperial nobility and imperial law and their interactions. The chapter ends with a discussion of life on Capital and the imperial palace.
Chater 4: Duites and Responsibilites: Basically what the Imperial Nobility does. Specifics include the Imperial Navy, Army, the Imperial Civial Ministries, the Imperial Court and the Moot. There are some ideas here for incorporating Noble characters into a campaign.
Chapter 5: Variations. Disscussion of the Alien races take on nobility, both in the Imperium and in their own empires. There is a short discussion of Planetary nobility as well. The chapter also contains a list of potential noble titles from 15 different Terran languages.
Chapter 6: Biographies. Contains biographies of the Emperor, Empress, the Princess, the two princes, the Archdukes, and a few other named nobility from Traveller history. These are from the point of view of the GT alternate history, so much of the MT and TNE biographies are missing/wrong.
Chapter 7: Characters. A short chapter of GURPS rules, including some advantages and templates, mostly as they apply to Nobles and the GT universe.
Chapter 8: Campaigns. This is a discussion of some specific ideas on how to run campaigns based around the nobility in Traveller.
This book is what the D20 crowd would call a "Fluffy" book (as opposed to a crunchy book). Except for Chapter 7, the entire book is entirely devoid of any GURPS rules what so ever.
Overall, I would give this book an 8 of 10. It makes an honerable end to the GURPS 3rd edition books. It is extremely well written, if (to my eye) a little disoganized. It varies between the general discussion and specifics without revealing any secrets. Some of the areas are maddenly vague until you get to the final chapter where the author addresses why and how to fix it.
If you have any interest in Noble characters in Traveller, or having a nobility IYTU or getting ideas how nobility work in a futuristic society, this book is a must. If you think nobiliy is a boring anachranism, but still looking for some ideas to torture/reward your players or background for the Traveller (or other) universe, I would recommend at least a look through.
I very much got the idea that the omitted discussion of the Archdukes (and some of the other things) was deliberate. I know that things I've written for the T20 which referenced the GT things were edited. Some of the other odd bits were definatly added to keep the canonista happy but written in a way so you can ignore them (like the Vicount).
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Well, proofraeading-wise, I notice on Page 54 there is a title in charge of the Office of the Emperor, named the "Imperial Major-domestic".Originally posted by Malenfant:
I wasn't implying that you weren't happy with it. It just sounded a little uncharacteristic of the usual fact-checking and proofreading that happens in a normal playtest...
I wonder if that should have been Imperial Major-Domo.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
I got that idea also, but I don't think it was necessary. The situation in Gateway as an anomoly, and perhaps it served as an inspiration to Strephon to re-empower the Archdukes.
BTW, GT: Nobles is a great addition to the Traveller family! Kudos to Loren and Jon for a great job!
Hunter
Some of it was also an ommision history. For example, the writeup of the how the nobility runs the imperal armed forces only covers from 1116 forward (i.e. Strephon's reforms), noting only that previously it was much more complicated and that many nobles are upset at the changes. Given the previous conflicting canon, I'm not sure it could be explained.
Hm. Odd. I don't recall noticing that during the playtest. It certainly seems uncalled for, but Jon and Loren usually have good reasons for what they do, so I can't tell without seeing for myself, and my copy has yet to reach me, alas.
Does it say 'rule'? Previous canon says that a count is 'associated with a cluster of world' which is not quite the same thing. OTOH, the duchy is specifically said to be the lowest level of interstellar government. However, a duke could ask his counts to administer the affairs of thier clusters on his behalf.
Not inexplicable at all. The subsector/duchy is the basic governmental unit. However, some Imperial functions has to be coordinated at the sector level. One of the sector's dukes is charged with overseeing the sector administration. He has no legislative powers at the sector level, but he has administrative powers. He is not the liege lord of the other dukes, merely primus inter pares (first among equals).
(Note: The above is not canon, it is my explanation of the sector duke/subsector duke setup).
Why? 'Marquis' is an English word too.
Real life is seldom that neat; virtual real life should emulate Real Life. A bit of oddness here and there adds versimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing game setting.
The archdukes were emasculated long before that, shortly after the end of the Pacification Campaigns.
Hans
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Hm. Odd. I don?t recall noticing that during the playtest. It certainly seems uncalled for, but Jon and Loren usually have good reasons for what they do, so I can?t tell without seeing for myself, and my copy has yet to reach me, alas.
</font>[/QUOTE]A Viscount rules over a "cluster of worlds". Also, previous canon is reinforced by stating that Counts also rule over a "cluster of worlds". However, nowhere in the entire history of the game has this "cluster of worlds" thingamagigit been defined.[/qb][/QUOTE]Does it say 'rule'? Previous canon says that a count is 'associated with a cluster of world' which is not quite the same thing. OTOH, the duchy is specifically said to be the lowest level of interstellar government. However, a duke could ask his counts to administer the affairs of their clusters on his behalf.
[/qb][/QUOTE]
You are correct, Library Supplement 11 says Counts are associate with two or three worlds. It is GT:Nobles which says “a cluster of worlds” for both Counts and Viscounts.
And that is all it says. That is all the rest of canon says anywhere. Just that these strange nobles with the title of Count go around with an association with two or three worlds. It doesn’t even say if they’re in the same subsector. Since an “association” doesn’t mean a whole lot, do we therefore assume that Counts don’t mean a whole lot? Do we just ignore this entire entry?
I have always, perforce, assumed “associate with” meant “ruled over”, because it was talking about nobles who were the ruling force of the Imperium. Otherwise, just what was the entire special section on nobility in Supplement 11 talking about?
Not inexplicable at all. The subsector/duchy is the basic governmental unit. However, some Imperial functions has to be coordinated at the sector level. One of the sector?s dukes is charged with overseeing the sector administration. He has no legislative powers at the sector level, but he has administrative powers. He is not the liege lord of the other dukes, merely primus inter pares (first among equals).
(Note: The above is not canon, it is my explanation of the sector duke/subsector duke setup).
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree on one point, the OTU has always equated the subsector with a duchy. And it is that very fact which I find inexplicable. Subsectors are small corners of the Imperium, really. Duchies, by the very use of the term, are big chunks of a realm. Dukes, by their very title, are powerful nobles. Calling tiny sections of the Imperium “duchies” and their rulers “dukes” really throws me for a loop. Especially when we turn around and call the sectors “duchies” ruled by “dukes” at the exact same time. In order to differentiate, we must tag Subsector and Sector onto Duke every time we refer to it. As well, if we refer to any one the Imperium’s “duchies”, we must now also prefix Subsector and Sector before it, as well.
As for having one “duke” of a subsector/duchy being “first among equals”, ahem . . . but given that the Archdukes are utterly without power before Strephon’s reforms, then to step down and call the Sector level also week, with the Sector Duke “not the liege lord of the other dukes,” why, then, I think we have an Imperium with an Emperor in charge of over three hundred “dukes” and “duchies”. Three hundred! The title “duke” is reduced to be just another noble title in the middle of a forest, nothing special. I guess it would be an open argument as to whether the Imperium could survive without any type of regional leadership, where only the local subsectors leaders were sovereign. What happens when wealthy subsector A begins to beat up on poor subsector B and Capital/Core is a long way off? I guess the Admiralty will have to settle it.
I really can’t imagine the Imperium actually functioning that way (although I’d agree there are parts of canon that suggest it does).
Why? ?Marquis? is an English word too.
</font>[/QUOTE]A bit of research on my part shows you are correct. However, it seems to have entered use in England later on, around 1385(one book tells me: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.).
My preference for Margrave over Marquis is personal, really. That, and the English version is usually spelled Marquess and pronounced “Mark-weiss”. It’s pure prejudice on my part that I like neither the spelling nor the pronunciation.
Real life is seldom that neat; virtual real life should emulate Real Life. A bit of oddness here and there adds versimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing game setting.
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, yes, and no. I don’t think the exactly order of noble titles applied to governing levels affects the verisimilitude of the OTU in a big way. On the other hand, contradictory information in a “story/milieu” (as opposed to the real world, which is a whole ‘nother ball of wax) is a real verisimilitude breaker, and you can find that all over the OTU.
The archdukes were emasculated long before that, shortly after the end of the Pacification Campaigns.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]Ah! Then you’ve located cites earlier than I have. Good. Library Supplement 11 (page 6) indicates it occurred after the Civil War. Which source are you referring to?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I don't have my copy of GT: Nobles here to check, but I think if you look at the table included in the section on the Imperial Mandate, counts and viscounts are explicitly noted as exercising the Imperial Mandate over their associated clusters of worlds -- not "ruling," perhaps, but the next best thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. I call it "Imperial Authority", instead of "Imperial Mandate", but it's effectively the same thing. The worlds still rule themselves, but Imperial business (civil and military) is conducted/handled by the noble in charge of that level of government.
What I've always assumed (and I know this goes quite a bit beyond what canon actually says), is that the duchy is the first level of interstellar government. It has a duke and from a couple of dozen to several score lesser Imperial nobles. The duke always functions as a sort of Imperial viceroy, but apart from that there is quite a bit of latitude when it comes to the actual setup. Some dukes run their duchies as autocracies with his vassals as deputies. Othe duchies lean more towards constitutional setups with duchy senates and restrictions on the duke's powers. Bottom line is that the nobles of the duchy is a 'labor pool'. Just how the duke utilizes that pool differs from duchy to duchy.
From what Chris says it sounds like this view conflicts with what Nobles says, so I guess I'll have to revise it, but I'll need a copy of the book first
.That's more your cultural conditioning speaking than what the game material says. I don't see any reason why the titles used by an interstellar realm three thousand years from now should have more than a passing resemblance to what they mean on 21st Century Terra (any more than a 21st Century duke need to be an army leader or a lieutenant has to be the deputy of a captain).
But we don't. A sector duke is a subsector duke with a few extra duties. That's all.
Whenever it is germane, yes.
I disagree with you there. A duchy is never a sector. It is usually a single subsector (which is why the two terms has (slightly erroneously) become synonymous), sometimes a subsector with a few bits added, rarely several subsectors, but never more than that.
That's not a bug, it's a feature. With the kind of communication problem the Imperium has, former emperors didn't want any of their 'viceroys' to become too powerful. I believe that a sector is just about the minimum size of a teritory that might have a chance to successfully resist the power of the Imperium (The Julian League did it, Ilelish tried it (even though the failed they must have thought they had a shot). By having the Imperium divided into 300 chunks instead of 20, the emperors ensured themselves against rebellion.
Exactly.
Whereas I think the relative impotence of the dukes is the only thing that hasd allowed the Imperium to have hereditary viceroys without said viceroys eventually usurping the Emperor's authority over their respective territories.
Don't expect me to argue that the OTU doesn't have its share of belief suspender snappers. I just don't think that the absence of strict logic in the way the noble titles work is one of them.
My books are at home and for some reason I can't find the Library Data here on CotI, but I think it was either in the description of the domains or somewhere in MT. Or perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe Chris can help?
Hans
