Theophilus
SOC-13
What ever happened to the GT Imperial Navy sourcebook?
GT Imperial Navy
- Thread starter Theophilus
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It was released as Grand Fleet by Avenger Enterprises, in association with ComStar Games.
SJG had unidentified problems with the original manuscript and rejected it. As noted above, the same basic manuscript was then released as Grand Fleet.
Theophilus
SOC-13
That's what I thought.
Well then, you thought wrong.
The original version was canned. I don't know why or who wrote it.
The SECOND version was written by myself and Neil Frier after the job was re-commissioned. SJG then generally messed us about a few years and we eventually released the MS as GRAND FLEET.
Grand Fleet is not the MS that was rejected by SJG. It's the one we completed in good faith to replace the canned one, and which they then messed us about over for literally years on end.
I object to the suggestion that I turned in work that got rejected. That isn't what happened.... the rejected MS was by someone else.
The original version was canned. I don't know why or who wrote it.
The SECOND version was written by myself and Neil Frier after the job was re-commissioned. SJG then generally messed us about a few years and we eventually released the MS as GRAND FLEET.
Grand Fleet is not the MS that was rejected by SJG. It's the one we completed in good faith to replace the canned one, and which they then messed us about over for literally years on end.
I object to the suggestion that I turned in work that got rejected. That isn't what happened.... the rejected MS was by someone else.
BTW:
To this day I have no idea why SJG messed us about over what became Grand Fleet. It was commissioned and a draft submitted, then silence. Then a series of queries about where we were with it, to which we replied by reminding them that they already knew - we'd put a draft in and were waiting to hear from THEM.
Conversations always ended with a promise to let us know where things stood, followed by months of silence then another query about the project status. We repeatedly asked for a straight answer about what they wanted to do with the project and were repeatedly told that we'd be informed ASAP. Nothing ever happened until the next request from them about whether we still wanted to write the book ('We did write it. You already have it.' Silence. It got boring eventually.
We decided they were going to dick us around forever so published it as an Avenger product.
BUT.
The manuscript we published was the second version, our version, not the one that got canned. I don't know why that happened, just that it did.
To this day I have no idea why SJG messed us about over what became Grand Fleet. It was commissioned and a draft submitted, then silence. Then a series of queries about where we were with it, to which we replied by reminding them that they already knew - we'd put a draft in and were waiting to hear from THEM.
Conversations always ended with a promise to let us know where things stood, followed by months of silence then another query about the project status. We repeatedly asked for a straight answer about what they wanted to do with the project and were repeatedly told that we'd be informed ASAP. Nothing ever happened until the next request from them about whether we still wanted to write the book ('We did write it. You already have it.' Silence. It got boring eventually.
We decided they were going to dick us around forever so published it as an Avenger product.
BUT.
The manuscript we published was the second version, our version, not the one that got canned. I don't know why that happened, just that it did.
So, are we now clear?
My 'SJG Imperial Fleets Book' manuscript was NOT rejected. That was the original one by someone else. I withdrew mine because SJG were messing me about and published it as Grand Fleet.
I respectfully suggest that statements posted as facts should actually be correct.
My 'SJG Imperial Fleets Book' manuscript was NOT rejected. That was the original one by someone else. I withdrew mine because SJG were messing me about and published it as Grand Fleet.
I respectfully suggest that statements posted as facts should actually be correct.
I've been the victim too many times of people stating incorrect information over and over until it becomes 'true'. For example I have received several diatribes about how only an idiot could come up with the Dandelions and I'm such an idiot and I should be killed for it (actually, the death threats were for something else but you take my point).
'Course, the Dandelions were invented by Marc Miller for The Traveller Aventure.
Point is, I've let potenitally damaging statements go unchallenged in the past and they're now accepted as 'true'. 10 years after the publication of Behind the Claw I still get attacked for things that were not my doing.
Ironic really. My name is on the cover so if anyone screws up I get the blame. BUT, many people don't seem to be able to connect my name with good products, and I still get 'Avenger? Who're they?'.
Yeah, maybe I was a bit forceful. I'm just tired of being accused of things that are not true, and as a professional writer I find the implication that I turned in substandard work to be... upsetting. As someone trying to make money on a product I find the implication that I'm selling a substandard product because someone else rejected it... upsetting also.
So, bottom line is - if you tell the world something about me or my work, please be so kind as to tell the truth. Myths can be damaging, and it's me that takes the hit.
'Course, the Dandelions were invented by Marc Miller for The Traveller Aventure.
Point is, I've let potenitally damaging statements go unchallenged in the past and they're now accepted as 'true'. 10 years after the publication of Behind the Claw I still get attacked for things that were not my doing.
Ironic really. My name is on the cover so if anyone screws up I get the blame. BUT, many people don't seem to be able to connect my name with good products, and I still get 'Avenger? Who're they?'.
Yeah, maybe I was a bit forceful. I'm just tired of being accused of things that are not true, and as a professional writer I find the implication that I turned in substandard work to be... upsetting. As someone trying to make money on a product I find the implication that I'm selling a substandard product because someone else rejected it... upsetting also.
So, bottom line is - if you tell the world something about me or my work, please be so kind as to tell the truth. Myths can be damaging, and it's me that takes the hit.
Theophilus
SOC-13
Ouch, maybe that's why I don't post much.
Just asked what happened to the project.
Never saw MJD's name in the post.
All it says is:
Released as grand fleet
SJG had problem with original manuscript
Now I'm missing a big chunk off my posterior.....
MARTIN, how did I think wrong. the project was dropped (I don't give a @#$% how or Why) and came back as Grand Fleet.....
Just asked what happened to the project.
Never saw MJD's name in the post.
All it says is:
Released as grand fleet
SJG had problem with original manuscript
Now I'm missing a big chunk off my posterior.....
MARTIN, how did I think wrong. the project was dropped (I don't give a @#$% how or Why) and came back as Grand Fleet.....
Theophilus
SOC-13
All I thought was:
GT Imperial fleet gone
Grand fleet comes out
wonder if it's the same product by a different company
Guess that means SJG isn't publishing Imperial Fleet
Of course IF you were a Zho you'd be able to read my thought's and know what I thought, Of course most of the time I don't know what I think.
I get confused by the echo's. On windy day's there's a whistle. Kind of annoying but anyway I just thought it had been picked up by a different company.
Kinda liked Grand Fleet, any chance it comes out in a booklet? Hate printing PDF's
Also did you model the photos for the Tianamen and Punisher dreadnaughts off the little cardboard counters from FFW and Imperium?
GT Imperial fleet gone
Grand fleet comes out
wonder if it's the same product by a different company
Guess that means SJG isn't publishing Imperial Fleet
Of course IF you were a Zho you'd be able to read my thought's and know what I thought, Of course most of the time I don't know what I think.
I get confused by the echo's. On windy day's there's a whistle. Kind of annoying but anyway I just thought it had been picked up by a different company.
Kinda liked Grand Fleet, any chance it comes out in a booklet? Hate printing PDF's
Also did you model the photos for the Tianamen and Punisher dreadnaughts off the little cardboard counters from FFW and Imperium?
I would guess that SJG will not be publishing the Imperial Navy book. They did show renewed interest a few times over the years. The conversation usually went:
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "It's more or less written. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then."
Silence. (Months)
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "It's more or less written. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then."
Silence. (Months). Repeat a couple more times.
Me: "What is the status of the book? Do you want it or not?"
SJG: "Yes, I think. Maybe. The previous line editor knew about this, I don't. I'll find out." (Jon and Loren said this about 3 times between them as first one then the other contacted me in the capacity of the Traveller Line editor.
(weeks pass)
Me: "So, what about the Navy book?"
SJG: "Oh, that. Yes, well, someone who's not me knows about that. I'll get back to you in a few days."
(More months.)
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "As I've told you several times, we wrote it and subitted it already. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then. Okay. I'll get back to you in a few days."
(Months pass)
Me: "OKay, so what do you want to do about the Navy book?"
SJG: "Oh, that. Well, I'm not sure of the status. Are you still interested in writing it?"
Me: "Yes, and you have the manscript on file from years ago. Do you actually have any interest in publishing this book or not?"
SJG: "There are some things I need to look into. We'll get back to you in a few days."
Months pass without further communication.
At this point it's been YEARS. SJG have never kept any of their promises to get back to me, look into things or whatever. So I decide to make some use of the work...
I extensively rewrite the manuscript, add some things, remove a lot of it and publish a book based on the work I did a few years ago but substantially different from it. Somehow the misconception arises that I have published a manuscript written by someone else, that I've never seen, and that was rejected by SJG.
That's pretty much how it happened. Some details may be misremembered, but certainly there were several iterations of the 'are you still willing to write this? - It's done, you have it - Oh, I'll get back to you' conversation followed by silence.
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "It's more or less written. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then."
Silence. (Months)
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "It's more or less written. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then."
Silence. (Months). Repeat a couple more times.
Me: "What is the status of the book? Do you want it or not?"
SJG: "Yes, I think. Maybe. The previous line editor knew about this, I don't. I'll find out." (Jon and Loren said this about 3 times between them as first one then the other contacted me in the capacity of the Traveller Line editor.
(weeks pass)
Me: "So, what about the Navy book?"
SJG: "Oh, that. Yes, well, someone who's not me knows about that. I'll get back to you in a few days."
(More months.)
SJG: "What's the status of this book? Are you still willing to write it?"
Me: "As I've told you several times, we wrote it and subitted it already. You have a draft on file. Still awaiting the editorial comments we were told were about to be forthcoming so we can proceed to the final draft."
SJG: "Right then. Okay. I'll get back to you in a few days."
(Months pass)
Me: "OKay, so what do you want to do about the Navy book?"
SJG: "Oh, that. Well, I'm not sure of the status. Are you still interested in writing it?"
Me: "Yes, and you have the manscript on file from years ago. Do you actually have any interest in publishing this book or not?"
SJG: "There are some things I need to look into. We'll get back to you in a few days."
Months pass without further communication.
At this point it's been YEARS. SJG have never kept any of their promises to get back to me, look into things or whatever. So I decide to make some use of the work...
I extensively rewrite the manuscript, add some things, remove a lot of it and publish a book based on the work I did a few years ago but substantially different from it. Somehow the misconception arises that I have published a manuscript written by someone else, that I've never seen, and that was rejected by SJG.
That's pretty much how it happened. Some details may be misremembered, but certainly there were several iterations of the 'are you still willing to write this? - It's done, you have it - Oh, I'll get back to you' conversation followed by silence.
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One thing I need to mention:
SJG commissioned this book 'way back.
We did an outline.
The 'editorial comments' were to be on the OUTLINE, including some revisions.
The editorial comments had not appeared as the deadline approached so we took a best-guess and rewroked it ourselves then wrote 60,000 words of the manuscript (most of it). The idea (dumb idea maybe) was that when the editor finally told us what he wanted, we'd have the bulk of the work done and ready. We'd make whatever changes were needed and put it in and still meet the deadline.
Which passed while we were waiting for the editor's comments that would allow us to actually begin writing. Point is, we bust a gut to meet the deadline; SJG then lost interest in the project, other than when they suddenly expressed renewed interest (several times) before forgetting about it again.
The manuscript published as Grand Fleet is different to the one we submitted to SJG, though it contains the same basic information. My real-world publisher would consider it a 'competing work'.
Point is, SJG have no claim to anything after the outline. That's the point where the project stalled at their end. Everything afterwards (written to a revised outline) is 100% mine.
SJG commissioned this book 'way back.
We did an outline.
The 'editorial comments' were to be on the OUTLINE, including some revisions.
The editorial comments had not appeared as the deadline approached so we took a best-guess and rewroked it ourselves then wrote 60,000 words of the manuscript (most of it). The idea (dumb idea maybe) was that when the editor finally told us what he wanted, we'd have the bulk of the work done and ready. We'd make whatever changes were needed and put it in and still meet the deadline.
Which passed while we were waiting for the editor's comments that would allow us to actually begin writing. Point is, we bust a gut to meet the deadline; SJG then lost interest in the project, other than when they suddenly expressed renewed interest (several times) before forgetting about it again.
The manuscript published as Grand Fleet is different to the one we submitted to SJG, though it contains the same basic information. My real-world publisher would consider it a 'competing work'.
Point is, SJG have no claim to anything after the outline. That's the point where the project stalled at their end. Everything afterwards (written to a revised outline) is 100% mine.
Sounds like SJG has simply lost the manuscript. And, even if they do have the manuscript they will probably publish it as a PDF which is what they seem to be doing with their RPG lines these days. When that would be? Probably after the entire GT line is out and then ask you to modify to suit Interstellar Wars & Fourth Edition. Or maybe the GURPS Starships recently released is meant as a filler.
The mind of SJG is hard too read, they talk about too centred on Munchkin but then they have starved the GURPS line. Now, I am not to fond of the GURPS rules but they had some real quality Traveller gems amidst the rough and alot more in a holding pattern like your manuscript. How do you think that we (in fandom) feel about Jon's Alderban sector never seeing the light of day. Yes, I know, you invested alot of time and research into making Imperial Navy/Fleets without a penny in compensation but you have made a name for yourself and that is why I will always buy an Avenger product that you write, as it stands for quality with a capital Q.
In other news, will do you any more writing for Traveller especially in the 1248 Milieu?
The mind of SJG is hard too read, they talk about too centred on Munchkin but then they have starved the GURPS line. Now, I am not to fond of the GURPS rules but they had some real quality Traveller gems amidst the rough and alot more in a holding pattern like your manuscript. How do you think that we (in fandom) feel about Jon's Alderban sector never seeing the light of day. Yes, I know, you invested alot of time and research into making Imperial Navy/Fleets without a penny in compensation but you have made a name for yourself and that is why I will always buy an Avenger product that you write, as it stands for quality with a capital Q.
In other news, will do you any more writing for Traveller especially in the 1248 Milieu?
Since I was the one to post the incorrect information, let me put in a "mea culpa". I was not aware that there was more than one writer SJG talked to.
SJGs pronouncements at the time, such as they were, seemed to imply a certain amount of confusion and/or uncertainty as to what their actual plans were.
SJGs pronouncements at the time, such as they were, seemed to imply a certain amount of confusion and/or uncertainty as to what their actual plans were.
