Grenade launchers in MT

[opensent]

I'm in concurrence with Vladika.

Consider that all direct fire combat using slug projectiles must compensate for trajectory.

Do sniper rifles have to use Indirect Fire rules at certain ranges due to bullet drop?

http://www.cybersniper.com/bulletdp.gif

Do machine guns have to use Indirect Fire to correctly direct plunging fire?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7957/324/1600/plunging.jpg

The trajectory arc isn't the distinguishing feature. It's the ability to see the target. It is possible to fire a mortar or howitzer as a direct fire weapon in an exigent situation.

http://www.military-quotes.com/medi...y-a-giat-105-lgi-mkii-2c-155mm-towed-gun.html

 

[Piper]

Consider the humble bow. This is also a high-trajectory, direct fire weapon. It can, like the grenade launcher and machinegun, engage targets in defilade. Should the longbow be classed as indirect fire?

 

[opensent]

Consider the humble bow. This is also a high-trajectory, direct fire weapon. It can, like the grenade launcher and machinegun, engage targets in defilade. Should the longbow be classed as indirect fire?

Yes, I can hear the fire mission now:

Ye Olde Forward Observer: Wooden Rain One One, this is War Boar Two Seven, Adjust Fire, Over.

Longbowman: War Boar Two Seven, this is Wooden Rain One One, Adjust Fire, Out.

Ye Olde Forward Observer: Grid WM1890513, Direction 0530, Over.

Longbowman: Grid WM1890513, Direction 0530, Out.

Longbowman: Shot Over.

Ye Olde Forward Observer: Shot Out.

Longbowman: Splash, Over.

Ye Olde Forward Observer: Splash Out.

Ye Olde Forward Observer: End of Mission, 1 casualty, Pikemen disbursed, Over.

Longbowman: End of Mission, 1 casualty, Pikemen disbursed, Out.

 

[aramis]

The problem, Vladyka, is that the Army definition of direct and indirect fire is not the same as the common understanding - where direct fire means aiming down the weapon at the target, where indirect means aiming the weapon over the target and dropping rounds upon them.

A typical mortar is, by that FM's definition, a direct fire weapon.

 

[McPerth]

My only experience in military comes from wargaming, but in games as ASL indirect fire is closer to spotted fire (coherent with the task, where the main skill is FO, BTW), while non-spotted fire is called direct fire, even from mortars.

Many weapons thougth for indirect fire are not too precise in direct fire, though (as mortars, to keep with the example).

In any case, I'm not so sure that rocked assisted grenades would use high angle fire (after all, that's why they are rocked assisted). I envision them more like the accelerator rifles or snub pistols (whoise rounds are rocket assisted too).

And I agree with Opensent that a single round weapon that must be moved to reload (as a man portable GL) would be quite difficut to correct by a spotter, as most references would be lost in loading.

 

[Vladika]

The problem, Vladyka, is that the Army definition of direct and indirect fire is not the same as the common understanding - where direct fire means aiming down the weapon at the target, where indirect means aiming the weapon over the target and dropping rounds upon them.

A typical mortar is, by that FM's definition, a direct fire weapon.

Perhaps you should get a defense contractors job and teach them English?

2-25. The lay of a weapon is the characteristic that determines how a Soldier engages a target. A weapon's lay is either direct or indirect fire. Every weapon organic to the Infantry platoon or squad is direct fire, with the exception of company and battalion mortars. - FM 3-21.8 (FM 7-8)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Direct Fires. Those fires produced by weapons in which the operator can visually see the target. This ability to see may be enhanced by optics. It is limited to ground-to-ground fires. Given current technologies of vehicular and nonvehicular systems, the range of direct fire weapons extends to approximately 4,000 meters.

Indirect Fires. Those ground-based fires produced by weapons in which the target is beyond the line of sight of the operator or masked by terrain; in either case the operator is dependent upon a separate observer (human or electronic) to see the target. ARMY DIRECT FIRE ACCURACY: PRECISION AND ITS EFFECTS ON THE BATTLEFIELD -p6

"Common understanding" :rofl: How often is that correct?

Again, it's the Army's weapon; until something radically changes I'm going to assume they know how to use it.

Is there something in your vast military experience that leads you to believe the entire US Army doesn't have a clue?

For that matter, when's the last time you were wrong? About anything?

My initial post was nothing more than OFFICIAL data, no ore in the water at all. Then I read your "informed" replies, never once quoting a source. Could you reference a real source, and not some vague generic statement or periodical?

 

[Vladika]

In any case, I'm not so sure that rocked assisted grenades would use high angle fire (after all, that's why they are rocked assisted). I envision them more like the accelerator rifles or snub pistols (whoise rounds are rocket assisted too).

And I agree with Opensent that a single round weapon that must be moved to reload (as a man portable GL) would be quite difficut to correct by a spotter, as most references would be lost in loading.

A good M203 operator can put a 40mm grenade through a house window at greater the 75 meters. I never did, but have seen it happen many times. That's based on training and using the weapons own iron sight

 

[McPerth]

A good M203 operator can put a 40mm grenade through a house window at greater the 75 meters. I never did, but have seen it happen many times. That's based on training and using the weapons own iron sight

That has been seen in many films/serials, where smoke grandes are thrown through a window by a grenadier before a SF/SWAT action. And, BTW, AFAIK for this to be posible the fire trajectory must be relatively flat, so not high angle fire...

 

[aramis]

A good M203 operator can put a 40mm grenade through a house window at greater the 75 meters. I never did, but have seen it happen many times. That's based on training and using the weapons own iron sight

I saw it done with training rounds. I've also seen training rounds dropped into garbage cans. Guys who know the weapon really well - probably skill 2+ - and have high dex.

 

[McPerth]

I saw it done with training rounds. I've also seen training rounds dropped into garbage cans. Guys who know the weapon really well - probably skill 2+ - and have high dex.

Were those rounds fropped into a garbage can (and so very high angle trajectory, I guess like mortars) rocked assisted?

As said, I have not much practical experience (to say the least) about weapons, so I may well be wrong, but I guess the detail that they are rocket assisted makes them less accurate in high angle (I guess that means 2^nd quadrant) fire, being closer to a bazooka round than to the current grenades fired by the rigle attached grande launchers.

 

[jec10]

I saw it done with training rounds. I've also seen training rounds dropped into garbage cans. Guys who know the weapon really well - probably skill 2+ - and have high dex.

Yes, but the problem with the way MT handles them as written is that weapon skill has no bearing on the indirect fire task!

My RPG gunner firing on a tank needs a good forward observer skill to improve his hit chances!

 

[McPerth]

Yes, but the problem with the way MT handles them as written is that weapon skill has no bearing on the indirect fire task!

My RPG gunner firing on a tank needs a good forward observer skill to improve his hit chances!

And being a unskilled OK task, you can give it at a raw recruit, as he will have no penalty for untrained use (and will still hit once in 12 shoots)...

 

[aramis]

And being a unskilled OK task, you can give it at a raw recruit, as he will have no penalty for untrained use (and will still hit once in 12 shoots)...

I actually have no problem with that part. Seriously.

Putting it into a window, or a garbage can, or other fancy shooting, that's a "pinpoint shot."

Also, note the notes on the bottom of PM 78 on the GL's table...

Heavy Weapons skill is used on the “to hit” task for these weapons.​

 

[opensent]

Here's GDW's take on the issue from a follow-on Traveller product which has extensive direct fire and indirect fire rules.

Direct Fire Deviation: Certain weapons deviate if they
miss when fired in direct fire - rifle grenades and grenade
launchers, for example (also bursting flechette rounds,
which use their own deviation system detailed above). The
die is rolled for distance and direction in the same way as
for indirect fire, as noted below; however, the distance die
roll is multiplied by only one meter.

 

[McPerth]

I actually have no problem with that part. Seriously.

I disargee with you here. I guess if I'd try to use a rocked assisted grande (or a bazooka) I'd had more probability to harm myself tan my target.

Putting it into a window, or a garbage can, or other fancy shooting, that's a "pinpoint shot."

And can pinpoint shooting be used in indirect fire? I guess not...

Also, note the notes on the bottom of PM 78 on the GL's table...

Heavy Weapons skill is used on the “to hit” task for these weapons.​

You're right here. I'm afraid I skipped this part...

 

[Piper]

What do people think about an errata suggestion that the chart on page 78 be amended to indicate that (at least) ATGL have a Task Difficulty of Rifle instead of Indirect?

Unfortunately, it won't be a simple fix. Some of these weapons would use Rifle while Handgun might be a better fit for others (see Archaic Weapons table for precedent). Most of them have a minimum arming range which would require further clarification/differentiation.

All of these weapons are less accurate at longer ranges so about the only thing we can say for certain is that Indirect is wrong for all of them.

 

[Piper]

Yes, I can hear the fire mission now:

Ye Olde Forward Observer: Wooden Rain One One, this is War Boar Two Seven, Adjust Fire, Over ...

You're so bad

 

[jec10]

Unfortunately, it won't be a simple fix. Some of these weapons would use Rifle while Handgun might be a better fit for others (see Archaic Weapons table for precedent). Most of them have a minimum arming range which would require further clarification/differentiation.

All of these weapons are less accurate at longer ranges so about the only thing we can say for certain is that Indirect is wrong for all of them.

Please note that before the thread drift I was only suggesting that Rifle be used as the difficulty for the ATGLs.

I've actually got no problem using Indirect fire for the normal GLs - especially as you use Hvy Wpns skill for them as Aramis pointed out.

 

[Piper]

Please note that before the thread drift I was only suggesting that Rifle be used as the difficulty for the ATGLs.

I've actually got no problem using Indirect fire for the normal GLs - especially as you use Hvy Wpns skill for them as Aramis pointed out.

Well, it was your question so if you're satisfied then there you go, but consider:

1) In simplest terms direct fire is aimed at a target. Indirect fire is a calculated set of deflections from a fixed reference point. The "aiming" comes from the Fire Direction Center.

2) Is the RAM grenade considered an indirect fired weapon in any other version of Traveller?

3) The farther away the target is, the harder it is to hit it. Does the MT Indirect classification accurately reflect this for grenade launchers?

 

[Carlobrand]

Back when I used to play SCA, I used to do trick shots with a 50-pound SCA "combat" crossbow firing weighted, padded bolts - big ol' 2" padded heads, made the things fly rather slow but safe if you were doing "combat" on a field of armored knights in full helms. I bounced a padded bolt off the front passenger window of a feller's car at a hundred yards on a bet - he was more than a little surprised given the unwieldy look of that padded bolt. And, I could lob the things up and over a wall in a field to drop on the top of the helmet of an armored knight standing on the other side - as long as it wasn't windy. I did it by Mark-1 eyeball; the crossbow didn't have sights.

It was all in the skill of judging how far off something was and what the correct angle to launch the bolt was, because the bolt flew in an arc and the arc was too pronounced outside of short range to just be able to put a sight pin on a target. When I was firing pistol in college, however, it was an indoor range, and all I did was line up the front and rear sights on the target. Very different feel, more about being calm and smooth than about mental calculation.

On the other hand, I've never been in the Army and I doubt very seriously that my ability to place a crossbow bolt would translate to guiding in artillery, so I don't know how lobbing an arcing shot relates to indirect fire skill.