GLOP (AKA GAG)

[Todg]

The Gauss Lightweight Ordnance Projector, also known as the Gauss Assault Gun, is introduces shortly after the gauss rifle (TL12). This weapon is meant to replace the LAG, LMG, GL and Shotgun for Gauss equipped personnel. The GLOP fires any of a variety of 20x75mm projectiles. In order to make ammunition handling easier, The magazines contain the projectile only. The separate power pack is stored in the butt assembly and has sufficient power for 105 round before replacement. Ammunition is loaded in either 10 round magazines or 25 round drums inserted into the weapon just forward of the trigger.

The weapon features an advanced computing gunsight which can compensate for the ballistic arc and performance of any ammunition loaded. As a particular type of ammunition is chambered in the weapon, contact in the chamber relay information to the sight about the required velocity, rate of spin and performance to the sight. in the case of smart ammunition (see below), data can be relayed from the sight back to the ammunition in order to activate special features, pass target information, range, etc.

A selector is provide allowing either semi-automatic, or full automatic fire at a relative slow 450 rounds per minute.

The GLOP masses 4.0 Kilos unloaded and costs Cr2500. Overall length is 850mm. Ammunition is available in either 10 round magazine or 25 round drums. Each 100 rounds is supplied with a replacement powerpack.

AMMUNITION:

The main feature of the GLOP that distinguishes it from the gauss rifle is it's ability to use a wide variety of ammunition. Essentially, anything that can be put into a 20x75mm capsule can be fired from the GLOP. The following are only a small sampling of the ordnance that can be used by the weapon.

APERS
This is the standard antipersonnel projectile for use against lightly armored troops. The cartridge consists of a capsule containing 20 SCMITR type flechette. The capsule opens immediately on exit from the muzzle, launching a cone of flechettes over a one degree arc at 1500 meters per second.

HE
This is a conventional fragmentation round consisting of a 20mm, notched wire body containing a he explosive filler and capable of producing casualties over a 15 meter radius.

Incendiary
This is a simple point detonation round containing a charge of Triethyl Aluminum incendiary compound.

AP
This round consists of a 20mm sabot holding a 10mm long rod penetrator launched at 2000 m/s. The penetrator is capable of defeating most know personnel and light vehicle armor and contains a small HE charge which detonates after impact, allowing the projectile to enter the target before exploding.


SMART AMMUNITION

The GLOP is capable of utilizing so call 'Smart Ammunition' in addition to the conventional ammunition listed above. The distinguishing feature of 'Smart Ammunition' is that it contains an electronic fuse that can be programmed with instructions passed from the computing gunsight just prior to firing.

sHE
Smart High Explosive. By utilizing data passed to the round from the gunsight, sHE can be configured to explode at a precise range while in flight. This allows the operator to airbust ammunition over a target to enhance fragmentation effect. Making the ammunition much more effective.

sIncendiary.
In all ways identical to sHE, with the exception that incendiary material replaces the explosive of sHE.

The above represents only a small sampling of ammunition available for the GLOP, and a number of vendors have developed their own proprietary projectiles for this weapon system.

The primary disadvantage of smart ammunition is it cost. Smart ammo typically costs 5x that of conventional rounds, but is correspondingly much more effective.

Other ammunition includes such items as smoke, flare, tranq and more. A californium based nuclear round is rumored to exist, but has not been confirmed.

(more data to follow if anyone is interested)

 

[kaladorn]

Three or four small points:

I have a friend works as an "Interior Ballistics Specialist" - designs anti-tank weapons (and AP ones) for a living for a major overseas arms producer. He maintains the 20mm grenade is an insufficient weapon (generally) due to its limited area of effect and likelihood of a strike - that is to say, with fragmentation and HE, the only way to score damage is to have significant explosive punch or throw enough fragments. He maintains this is why many nations are still considering the 40mm grenade as a standard, despite the US focus on 20mm/25mm (he maintains that in order to make such a grenade viable as HE, the US has to invent a new uber-explosive and I'm not sure how you beat the fragment count issue). So maybe a larger bore would be more useful. Now, being a gauss projectile, the 75mm length might be used as an argument since most or all of it can be 'useful length'. (My buddy says the real answer is a larger scale SMAW type weapon with a significant grenade warhead with lots of HE and fragmentation, but that's another story...)

Now, smart ammunition.... fired from a weapon that accelerates its projectiles in a very short period of time by generating a huge magnetic field.... does this spell a problem for most electronics? Methinks. I remain a bit dubious about gauss weapons with any kind of electronics or even fused rounds (can you say 'induced current'? 'kabang!').

Also, what is the acronym SCIMTR? It is unfamiliar to me, but you've used it in a couple of places.

Lastly, what about non-lethal rounds (beanbag, baton, gas, trang flechette) and things like cannister, lethal gas, EMP (anti-battle dress or electronics), or (though it may be to small to make a workable distribution) FAE?

One last other thing: (Yes, I know I said the last one was last, but I lied!) - in the even the smart ammo or even the conventional mag does not seem to want to pass on ammo characteristics, you should be able to manually select from a collection of standardized profiles or even make a custom profile (not during the fight, of course) using controls on the weapon or some sort of portable PDA programmer. This means you can use home-made relaods without depending on the mag to update the weapon... and also it means if you happen to get some out-spec ammo or ammo from another manufacturer that you can still tell the weapon how to fire.

And of course, stats for various incarnations of the game? And permission to use (with due attribution) your kit in my game (and thus, by exptension to post to my group's on-line site, again with due attribution) these stats? I know you've posted them in a public forum, but I still like to ask...

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

He maintains the 20mm grenade is an insufficient weapon (generally) due to its limited area of effect and likelihood of a strike - that is to say, with fragmentation and HE, the only way to score damage is to have significant explosive punch or throw enough fragments. He maintains this is why many nations are still considering the 40mm grenade as a standard, despite the US focus on 20mm/25mm.So maybe a larger bore would be more useful.

The Argentine army fields a 12 gauge (18.5mm) explosive shotgun round that seems to function well within the constraints it was designed for, and it is worth noting that several armies field mini-grenades not much bigger than the proposed 20mm projectile, all of which are deemed adequate for their role. Most have a lethal radius of 5 meters. I'd hardly call a projectile with a 30 foot diameter danger space inadequate.

Further, there are a number of gun systems that use 20mm HE shells (primarily for AA work) that see adequate for the task. Are 20mm shells as effective as larger 40mm? No of course not. But compared to a 20m slug, they offer a real advantage

Now, smart ammunition.... fired from a weapon that accelerates its projectiles in a very short period of time by generating a huge magnetic field.... does this spell a problem for most electronics? Methinks. I remain a bit dubious about gauss weapons with any kind of electronics or even fused rounds (can you say 'induced current'? 'kabang!').

Obviously, this depends on the technology available. It's TL12 who knows how the fusing system works? For all we know it's organic, or some other mechanism that isn't effected by magnetic fields, assuming there isn't some sort of magnetic shielding.

Also, what is the acronym SCIMTR? It is unfamiliar to me, but you've used it in a couple of places.

SCMITR is a form of flechette developed by AAI and particularly suited to low or moderate velocities while still retaining a very high lethality.

Upon studying the effectiveness of flechette ammunition, it was determined that lethality and wound tracks of shotgun flechettes was directly proportional to the width of the stabilizing fins. SCMITR is a direct result of these studies.
The SCMITR flechette is a simple steel stamping with a bias imparted on the tail section to provide spin for stability. The broad cross section results in a wide wound track, and the round is able to penetrate a standard aramid fiber ballistic vest or steel helmet ar ranges in excess of 500 meters, while exhibiting equal or greater lethality than conventional 8mm pellet ammunition and all at the same comparative cost per round.

Lastly, what about non-lethal rounds (beanbag, baton, gas, trang flechette) and things like cannister, lethal gas, EMP (anti-battle dress or electronics), or (though it may be to small to make a workable distribution) FAE?

I leave that to othesr. The system is certainly suitable for extension.

And of course, stats for various incarnations of the game? And permission to use (with due attribution) your kit in my game (and thus, by exptension to post to my group's on-line site, again with due attribution) these stats? I know you've posted them in a public forum, but I still like to ask...

Stats will depend on what variant you are using. Anything I post is available for use by anyone. Let me know what system you are using and I'll get you ttats.

As Time allows, I will be posting more on my Traveller guns website at http://weapons.travellercentral.com.

 

[kaladorn]

Well, I leave it to history to show whether the 20mm OICW round ends up being useful in the field against body armoured targets. My suspicion it they'll use it, and it'll sort of work. Of course, you use what you have. But if you had a 40mm grenade, you might be happier.

As for the flechettes, it seems to me that their penetration is often quoted wrt ballistic vests w/o inserts. This is because very sharp flechettes do well against fabric vests. If you have steel, iron, ceramic, or composite inserts, their performance drops off rather appaulingly, from what I understand. However, it is just a shotgun, so you really shouldn't be going after armoured targets with it anyway

Thanks again for the good work, and for the record I'm an MT player

(Who owns every version of the Trav rules.... but prefers the MT system).

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
[QB] Well, I leave it to history to show whether the 20mm OICW round ends up being useful in the field against body armoured targets. My suspicion it they'll use it, and it'll sort of work. Of course, you use what you have. But if you had a 40mm grenade, you might be happier.

I suspect that you are right. They are already considering moving to a 25mm round for the XM29 SABR. The jump to 40mm means a significant decrease in ammo load. Interestingly enough, studies conducted as part of the 1960 era SPIW program indicated that going fom a 40mm to a 30mm projectile had almost no impact on effectiveness.

As for the flechettes, it seems to me that their penetration is often quoted wrt ballistic vests w/o inserts. This is because very sharp flechettes do well against fabric vests. If you have steel, iron, ceramic, or composite inserts, their performance drops off rather appaulingly, from what I understand.

Flechettes do rather well against armor, much better thasn conventional bullets. Consider that a flechette is really just a miniature APFSDS tank round. During testing, shotgun flechettes with their moderate velocities, were able to penetrate both sides of a steel helmet at 500m. Flechettes have an extremely good cross sectional density, making them superior for work against armor.

I am currently working on detailed stats fot MT and should have them done shortly. Thanks for your comments.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Corejob:
Flechettes do rather well against armor, much better thasn conventional bullets. Consider that a flechette is really just a miniature APFSDS tank round. During testing, shotgun flechettes with their moderate velocities, were able to penetrate both sides of a steel helmet at 500m. Flechettes have an extremely good cross sectional density, making them superior for work against armor.

Be careful though.

For any given projectile cluster, of mass X (regardless of projectile count), and energy E (the amount of energy the propellant or accelerator can provide), your shell will have that E energy to propel it. If I have one penetrator of mass X, or ten of mass X/10, doesn't matter - I've still got E energy driving the lot. But what does matter is that for the single projectile, I can get all X mass behind my head, and with ten X/10 mass projectiles, I can only get 1/10th of X mass behind the head.

I guess what I'm saying is you're arguing more about projectile shape, L/W ratio, and the ability to deliver large amounts of power behind a small cross section for penetration. Mutliple flechettes vs. a single penetrator, seems to me for the same propellant energy, your trade off is the possibility of expanding your danger space at the cost of penetration of individual flechettes. A single penetrator will have better penetration, potentially and less chance of 'shivering' when it hits a solid insert.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

For any given projectile cluster, of mass X (regardless of projectile count), and energy E (the amount of energy the propellant or accelerator can provide), your shell will have that E energy to propel it. If I have one penetrator of mass X, or ten of mass X/10, doesn't matter - I've still got E energy driving the lot. But what does matter is that for the single projectile, I can get all X mass behind my head, and with ten X/10 mass projectiles, I can only get 1/10th of X mass behind the head.

I guess what I'm saying is you're arguing more about projectile shape, L/W ratio, and the ability to deliver large amounts of power behind a small cross section for penetration. Mutliple flechettes vs. a single penetrator, seems to me for the same propellant energy, your trade off is the possibility of expanding your danger space at the cost of penetration of individual flechettes. A single penetrator will have better penetration, potentially and less chance of 'shivering' when it hits a solid insert.

Understood. I merely point out that flechettes, driven at even moderate velocities, have already been demostrated to penetrate both soft and hard armor at common combat ranges. Even though the flechette may have a small mass, because of its high cross sectional density and small point, all the mass is applied to a small frontal area - that is, the force per square unit of surface is very high when compared to conventional projectiles.

Naturally, comparing one of a swarm of submissiles with a single projectile of 10x the mass may indicate a lesser ability to penetrate. To some extent this will depend on the nature of the single projectile.

However, there is no doubt that given similar velocities, the flechette will out penetrate conventional projectiles of significantly larger mass. The XM645 flechette round used by the SPIW was able to out penetrate all existing 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm armor piercing ammunition.

Indeed, one of the features of both the AAI and Steyr ACRs was their ability to defeat all known existing body armor. When tested against NIJ Level IV body armor, the Stery ACR was able to penetrate both front and rear panels of the exemplar vest at a range of 300 meters.

Certainly, any shotgun firing multiple flechettes won't have the same kind of velocity, if for no other reason than the limit of recoil the operator can tolerate. I envision flechette ammunition (more precisely SCMITR) to be the ammunition of choice against lightly armored targets (e.g. Cloth vests or CES). Against heavier armor, a high velocity single sun caliber pentrator, HEAT or Scharden type projectile may prove superior.

The main rational for adopting a multiple projectile weapon like the GLOP is for improved hit probability and not armor penetration.

 

[kaladorn]

And, as you justly point out, if the smaller flechette can manage the penetration, then there is no need for the larger one, so therefore having increased hit chance (or chance of multiple hits) is fine.

However, there is always a however: Do we think that a flechette will wound equivalently to a conventional round? I'm wondering if the smaller flechette won't have a more minimal wound channel than a larger slug. They've studied the penetration of these flechettes, but have they studies the damage done?

And an additional question: Does not the effective range of the flechette end up being less than that of the equivalent conventional projectile?

For the shotgun, I'd think the limiter on flechette lethality would be the fact the shotgun has a low-pressure firing chamber and would explode if you jack to much power into it, unless you're building a purpose built combat weapon. The buckshot firing 12 ga. has some limits on how juicy any AP-ish round it fires can be, since it isn't engineered for the same chamber pressures as a rifle...

 

[Tucker]

El Bumpo!

I have this ugly habit of not going back a few pages to find the goodies I missed. This GLOP/GAG shooter is something missin' I hadn't detailed nearly as well on my own. Kudos to ya Corejob.

 

[Pagan priest]

This looks like something I'm going to try to get off of my ref...

And I want one for home use as well!

 

[Straybow]

Er, SCMITR, HE, etc have definite overpenetration and collateral damage problems for home defense.

If you really need more lethality, perhaps GLOP can accept a muzzle loaded round like the old rifle grenades. That way length isn't limited by the magazine dimensions.

 

[Pagan priest]

Who said anything about home defense?

 

[vegascat]

The reason flechettes are deadly is: they have a decent penetration allowing them to disrupt organs, they give multiple hits in an instant, the canister flechette rounds are packaged with a red dye that is also can have anticoagulant properties (currently illegal by modern treaties)

 

[vegascat]

I suspect that the 25MM round will become more prevalent as body armor gets more effective. IF the troops are wearing powered armor capable of protecting the troop from 5.56 or 7.62 rounds, then the normal combat round will get heavy enough to penetrate that protection.

Think of the history of tanks.
In 1938, most main battle tanks mounted either a 20MM or 37MM cannon. That would penetrate the side or rear armor of any other tank then in use. Tanks mounting a 75MM short barrel howitzer existed to defeat strongpoints, not fight other tanks. Throughout that war, the projectiles became heavier and faster to defeat more advanced and thicker armor. Armor thickness went from 2in thick verticle frontal armor resisting 37MM shells in 1938 to over 12in sloped frontal armor resisting 128MM shells in 1944.

Current US personnel combat armor weighes about 22 Lbs and will protect against handgun bullets at point blank and rifle bullets at medium combat ranges. As this aromor spreads to other nations, weapons capable of penetration at all combat ranges will have to come into play, or the type of combats we see will change to match.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by vegascat:
The reason flechettes are deadly is: they have a decent penetration allowing them to disrupt organs, they give multiple hits in an instant, the canister flechette rounds are packaged with a red dye that is also can have anticoagulant properties (currently illegal by modern treaties)

Where did you hear that the shot marker is an anticoagulant? Beehive round are unlike traditional rounds in that the fire a shell loaded with flechettes which ruptures at a set distance showering the tarhet area with submunitions. The 'marker' is mixed in so that the spotter can see the shell burst because there is no 'splash' like a traditional HE shell.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by vegascat:
I suspect that the 25MM round will become more prevalent as body armor gets more effective. IF the troops are wearing powered armor capable of protecting the troop from 5.56 or 7.62 rounds, then the normal combat round will get heavy enough to penetrate that protection.

The 25mm round used by the XM-307 OCSW is an HE type and has less penetration than an armor piercing rifle round.

Current US personnel combat armor weighes about 22 Lbs and will protect against handgun bullets at point blank and rifle bullets at medium combat ranges. As this aromor spreads to other nations, weapons capable of penetration at all combat ranges will have to come into play, or the type of combats we see will change to match.

The current interceptor vest can spot multiple hits from 30-06 armor piercing ammunition at point blank range (a requirement of any NIJ threat level IV vest).

Such armor is extremely expensive and requyire significant technology to produce (the plates are Boron Carbide). It is highly unlikely that sucvh armor will spread much beyond the armies of wealthy western nations, given the cost. Most third world armies can barely afford to give their soldiers basic necessities and most second world armies doen't care enough about thier own soldiers to bother to armor them.

Consider that kevlar fragmentation armor has been available for several decades is relatively cheap and is extremely rare outside of a few western armies.

Armor is only of interest to armies (and nations) who place value on their soldier's lives.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by Corejob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vegascat:
The reason flechettes are deadly is: they have a decent penetration allowing them to disrupt organs, they give multiple hits in an instant, the canister flechette rounds are packaged with a red dye that is also can have anticoagulant properties (currently illegal by modern treaties)

Where did you hear that the shot marker is an anticoagulant? Beehive round are unlike traditional rounds in that the fire a shell loaded with flechettes which ruptures at a set distance showering the tarhet area with submunitions. The 'marker' is mixed in so that the spotter can see the shell burst because there is no 'splash' like a traditional HE shell. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Corejob.
Vegascat didn't say they ARE anticoagulant he said (yes with bad grammer) that they could be fitted with anticoagulant.
If you where going to go to that trouble why wouldn't you just fit nerve toxin instead, or gas.
Bye.