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Glider pouncer predator

You don't do the landing just via the wing suit.

Well, you can, but it tends to be as successful as skydiving without a parachute.

In our standard-density atmosphere, true... so far.

Note the part of the article where they talk about having found a set of speed/angle/etc parameters where the numbers say a "suit-only, no injury" landing is mathematically possible... and that they intend to try it soon?



In a denser atmosphere... even as little as 10% denser... they would have already done it, and it would probably be commonplace in the wing-suit community.

A 100-lb flying predator is well within the bounds of possibility in a standard atmosphere... all it takes is a thin, rangy body type where the limb length allows a high "wing area"-to-mass ratio..
 
Some thoughts:
Re the wingsuit - I'm aware they exist, but AFAIK the descent angle is very steep for these things. I hadn't heard of a proposed landing. That could be interesting, thanks for the link. Sounds like some impact absorption is planned, though.
Unfortunately, evolution doesn't progress via computer simulations, failures tend to be permanent and lead to dead-ends.

Re halfway cats - interesting, yes cats do that - watch this space (for a few hundred millennia).
I could see gliding cats of a few 10s of kg IMTU, though not a few hundreds.
YMMV. :)

Re arboreal predators in general - I can't see any gliding predator choosing humans as prey unless it is very large (NIMTU), very desperate, or has some form of other advantage such as poison to give it an edge.
 
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Flying Snakes: Just as an aside, in the Flandry story, "Hunters of the Sky Cave" the wolf-like Ardizirho use flying critters called batsnakes as hunting and tracking animals. They are small snakes that squeal and hiss while flying on bat wings. About the size of a medium sized rat snake they are also venomous, though the venom isn't fatal. But it has a numbing effect, and the things hanging on your arms and legs biting you keep you from running away.

I have similar animals IMTU that are the size of rat snakes and live in big balls in the trees for warmth. The mass is constantly writhing in and out to keep the snakes warm through the night, but during the day they hunt in groups. They have a numbing venom and their thick fangs are strong enough to punch through thick leather. They make a quick bite and fly off to watch, then when the prey stops moving they feed. The venom breaks down the tissues quickly and allow the snakes to tear away small pieces of meat and swallow them. They do not have dislocating jaws, nor do they feed on live animals.

The batsnakes in my campaign live on a world with a dense atmosphere, but slightly smaller than Earth. They can't fly far (too many calories burned in search time), but the animals they eat are plentiful on the rain forest floor, so all they really need to do is swoop down and envenom the prey, then feed until the prey is gone. The preferred prey is a thing that looks like a boar and about the same size. It'll feed a snake colony for a week. Since the snakes live in colonies in the tree above the prey they don't really have to go far to find food.



Killer Flying Squirrels: One way to figure out how something like these could work is by examining the reasons behind the evolution of the critter. Maybe the flying part is for escaping some larger arboreal predator (like flying squirrels and frogs do), but the little buggers might also have developed social behavior that leads them to cooperate for hunting and also for mutual protection. Make them venomous. They are delicate as flying so they need a boost to take down prey. Especially enough prey to feed a group of them.

Ever wonder why the black widow has such powerful venom? Because its a very delicate spider compared to the prey it usually catches. So it has to inject enough fast enough to kill the prey before the prey harms the spider. Black widows can vary the amount of venom used too, very unique among spiders, and highly indicative of the environmental pressure from their biome to both protect themselves as well as subdue prey. Small, delicate predators tend to use venom as an equalizer for those reasons.

So you can apply the same to your killer squirrels: they can be venomous to subdue the larger prey running around on the forest floor grazing...and the predators that feed on the squirrels can be dodged by flying (or more like the controlled crash most "flying" arboreal types perform) or by biting if cornered or territory is threatened. Maybe some predators have also evolved a hardened hide to prevent the killer squirrels from biting them so the flying part came from the pressure to find an escape method. The arboreal predator might not be able to fly, so bailing out of the tree works.

Now a human might be seen as either a big meal for swarm of the little buggers, or as a threat. Either might lead to an attack, and a social group would swarm a much larger threat to protect the young or territory.
 
Hey this is what is so great about COTI. Ideas someone comes up with one others run with it refine it discuss it.

I do like the idea of a pack hunting version jumping from tree to tree and swooping down on larger prey in numbers.

On killer flying squirrels it is possible for a creature to evolve from a herbivore to a carnivore and vice verse. An example of something like that happening is the Giant Panda which is a carnivore primarily that evolved to a herbivore.

I can envision one attacking a person then the rest of the pack come in oh dear.
 
Flying Snakes: Just as an aside, in the Flandry story, "Hunters of the Sky Cave" the wolf-like Ardizirho use flying critters called batsnakes as hunting and tracking animals. They are small snakes that squeal and hiss while flying on bat wings. About the size of a medium sized rat snake they are also venomous, though the venom isn't fatal. But it has a numbing effect, and the things hanging on your arms and legs biting you keep you from running away.
Hunters of the Sky Cave [“We Claim These Stars!”; Dominic Flandry], New York: Ace 1959; expanded from “A Handful of Stars” Amazing June ’59.

And Andre Norton did it earlier... in 1954:
"The Stars Are Ours": Cleveland: World Publishing Company 1954

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=7673895
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n/andre-norton/stars-are-ours.htm

stars_are_ours_1.jpg
 
Sabredog:

Please work these up in a little more detail, rough out some stat blocks - any version of Traveller will do - and send them off to me at submissions@freelancetraveller.com - these could definitely fit into the new section I mentioned with Bill's bezel-de.

I just sent you a copy in Word format via email...but I'll post it here for the others to see, too.

Gehenna Devil Squirrel

An arboreal mammal that lives in temperate forests of _Gehenna (IMTU), the GDS is a flying pouncer carnivore that lives in large social groups of up to 15-20 adults and a smaller number of juveniles. There is no alpha group or individual per se, rather the mob (as they are called by xenobiologists) lives in close cooperation with each other with some forms of social hierarchy exhibiting itself only during mating season (late Fall) and when feeding (as a pecking order forms from largest to smallest).

The average male is 40-45cm long (excluding the long, flattened tail of another 25-30cm), and the average female is slightly smaller in mass, but the same length. A GDS weighs approx 2-3kg. They are covered with a fine coat of gray-green fur that is highly prized for its luxurious feel in the high end garment industry. The sexual dimorphism among the GDS is extended to the fur coats’ color patterns: the males have a pattern of black bands, while the female has a mottled black pattern. Both of these patterns aid the GDS in hiding from other arboreal predators by mimicking the shadow play among the branches and leaves of the tress they live in. Because the female pattern is more subtle and its fur is denser and softer, the female is more valuable, often bringing as much as 500Cr. /pelt.

The face is long with a pointed snout and the ears are extremely large. When extended the ears allow the animal to hear sounds and track its prey from many kilometers away in the dense atmosphere of the GDS’s world. The GDS emits ultra high-pitched squeaks and clicks to communicate with others of its kind when declaring territorial rights, searching or mates and young, or for cooperating with others in a hunt. An expanding sac in the throat also allows the GDS to emit very low frequency croaking that can carry even farther in the dense atmosphere than the clicking and is used to warn off other mobs and attract mates by display. When hunting and travelling the GDS lowers its ears tight against its neck and head to protect them from snags in the trees.

The GDS is a quadruped flyer that has an elastic skin flap that is stretched between the wrists of the front legs, along the body, and terminates at the wrists of the hind legs. When the GDS makes a full extension of its legs the flap is opened to form a sort of parachute to allow it to “fly” out of, or across to another, tree. When running along the tree limbs or the ground the flap’s elasticity keeps it tight against the body using a series cartilaginous bands extending from the ribs to the edge of the flap. The flattened tail acts as a rudder for steering the GDS in flight.

The GDS is a carnivorous daytime pouncer that uses a venomous spur in its fore claws to subdue prey much larger than the individual GDS. The spur is retractable and located inside the inner wrist; it extends out 1cm when the GDS uses it for striking or threatening. The venom is a potent mixture of a curare-like protein with a necrotic compound. When envenomed the prey is paralyzed and dies of suffocation, while the necrotic compound breaks down the tissues for easier digestion and disarticulation of the prey item by the GDS.

The typical prey of the GDS is a large (30-50kg) rodent-like herbivore living on the forest floor. The GDS mob will swoop down one at a time and scratch the back of the prey with their spurs, and then glide to a landing on a nearby tree trunk. The mob then waits above the prey until the prey collapses and dies. The mob then glides or runs down to feed. The mob will drag portions it can tear loose up the tree trunks to females with young. A typical prey of 30kg can feed a mob for 2-3 days, but often they are chased off by a scavenger species that has armored plating on its back to protect it from the poisoned spurs of the angry mob.

Humans have sometimes been attacked by mobs when they have tried to approach what they take for a “cute” little animal (especially when a juvenile found on the ground is thought to have fallen out of a tree or been abandoned) and the mob swoops down to protect its territory or what it perceives as threatened young. Hunters who harvest the GDS for fur wear mesh armor and closed helmets to protect themselves from the poison spurs.

The main predator of the GDS is another arboreal mammal that lacks the ability to fly in any way but uses a harpoon-like dart to capture and paralyze the GDS with venom similar to the GDS’s, but lacking the necrotic inducing component. The bony “dart” is attached to an elastic ribbon is cartilage anchored inside the mouth under the predator’s tongue. The predator has three pairs of legs and will hang upside down by 2 pairs above a GDS mob. The dart is propelled by a puff of air “coughed” out by the predator with a bladder located in the neck. The dart will paralyze the GDS instantly and the predator with then run to avoid any attack by the mob. Since this ambush predator attacks from above the mob, the GDS are hampered by not being able to fly towards the predator, but will frequently “bail” from the tree and fly elsewhere for safety if they sense an approaching predator.

A GDS will live approx. 10 Terran years and females will bear 2 pups a season. The females breed in Fall and give birth in the Spring. Since the pups cannot fend for themselves until they are about 3 months old the females will nest with them in a hollow branch or trunk, protected by the rest of the mob and having their food brought to them while they nurse the young on milk. The pups are weaned off the milk onto regurgitated meat at 2 months old, and capable of feeding on their own at 3 months. Once the pups leave the nest they are capable of flight and are fully venomous. In fact, the juvenile from 3 months until they are 1 year old are more venomous than the adults. The venom is far more potent and it is believed that this is because they are less capable of defending themselves through threat displays or by flying than the larger, more experienced adults.


Classic Traveller Statistics

Gehenna Devil Squirrel

Carnivore Flyer / Pouncer A(surprised) F(surprised) S (2)

SIZE HITS ARMOR WOUNDS / WEAPONS
2-3kg 2/4 none stinger 1D6 (Plus poison*)

• Poison causes paralysis and damage to tissues as follows:

For the first sting that INFLICTS DAMAGE (meaning it got through the armor) the player must make a roll of END or less on 2D6, add one die to roll for every round after the first and for every sting after the first.

If the player fails then the character falls unconscious and requires emergency medical care to avoid cardiac arrest and keep them breathing. The character takes 1D6 damage every turn – per sting until medical care has provided an antidote has been administered. Damage is then healed normally per LBB 1.

** As a side note: if the animal is destroyed per the rules in LBB 3 for animal combat then the pelt will be of no value.
 
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I just had an idea about how something like a flying cat or snake could get around in an atmosphere that wasn't dense...maybe, but it would probably help if it was at least a lower gravity world with at least a standard atmosphere.

What if the skeletal structure was composed mainly of cartilage reinforced with hollow bone (plating around the cartilage) at those load bearing points and primary joints where stresses would be the greatest? The animal would be more delicate than one with a full bone skeleton, but if it didn't have to tussle with the prey, or the prey and other animals living in the same biome had similar traits the playing field would be even anyway.

If it used a hit and run (er, fly) method to envenom its prey, or just dog-piled something with a group of these predators and ripped it apart before it could defend itself, then it would be able to avoid the most common injury predators get.

If the critter had a flexible cartilage skeleton with extensible ribs to reinforce the flying membrane then maybe it could even extend just enough sail surface to soar quite a ways. With hollow bones (which are not as delicate as you might think, eagles and other raptors have them, too) the creature would be really light. With more cartilage replacing the bones that wouldn't need to bear a lot of stress...or at least with hollow bones throughout and some sort of crosshatching inside some of the heavier bones for extra strength it might work.

If the "sails" could be controlled someway - probably by flexing the cartilage bands to change the tautness to gain speed or change direction the way a sailboat, or even an old plane like the Fokker monoplanes did (no ailerons, the wing flexed to roll the plane) then it could really soar.

I know I keep harping on the venom thing, but it is a pretty misunderstood defense and predation adaptation, and usually people just think of it being something little bugs and such would need. But it makes a dandy way for anything relatively delicate or for anything just wanting to quickly subdue its prey to reduce the risk of injury or too many calories burned.

Just a thought anyway.
 
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Keep in mind: the major reasons poisons are not more common:
1) they are often a hazard to the animal with them
2) they are chemically complex and often made of proteins; high energy cost to create
3) they start out as merely irritating; if an irritant is not good enough to aid the creature's survival, odds are the trait won't be adaptive in the key transitional phases.
4) Most poisons can only be stored in limited quantities.
5) Some poisons require additional dietary inputs.

#3 would seem to rule out predation; most toxic envenomation predators have defensive use for their toxins. Cobras show that an irritant would be adaptive for ground snakes. As it becomes more toxic, it gains additional benefits, too.

Toxic flyers are likely to die if they crash wrong... as the toxic proteins attack parts of their system. )
 
Some of those reasons are valid only if you assume convergent evolution within our own biomes.

1) By their very definition they are a hazard, nonetheless they exist across a broad range of animals and plants even here on Earth. Large and small. The latest discovery being in the Komodo Dragon where it has now been found that the real reason its prey dies so quickly from a bite is from a venom, not from infection as once thought. The infection doesn't help - in fact I think it might make the venom more effective by attacking the immune system of the prey item, but it does show that poison as a means of catching prey works for a lot of animals.

2) So? If the animal or plant has evolved to use toxins for any reason then it must have access to whatever extra caloric cost it takes to manufacture them. And there are instances were a venomous animal, say sea slugs, don't manufacture their own venom, but gain it from their food source. And some toxins are a lot simpler than others - depends on how it works and if it has ant other function (for example rattlesnake poison's necrotic effect for aiding the swallowing and digestion of the prey item).

Also, large quantities of venom are not always required (this works for #3 & 4, too), nor are the toxins themselves required to be deadly. Some species of shrews have toxins which paralyze small snakes. Curare from Poison Arrow Frogs isn't deadly per se - but its paralytic action can be in the large enough quantities depending on the victim. On the other hand a minuscule amount of saxitoxin can kill a human within minutes. Same with some spider bites.

3) No, not all poisons start out as merely irritants. Some are defensive (like the above mentioned Poison Arrow Frog, sea slug, or the platypus), and some are for catching and subduing prey (snakes, spiders, in fact most venom users). Sometimes the reason for the dangerous reaction to a poison may be due to an allergic reaction, but that is happenstance. If a bee stung me I'm not going to die from it because I'm not allergic - but someone else might. But by the same token it is highly unlikely anyone bitten by a Blue-Ringed Octopus or stung by a Box Jellyfish will survive at all.

The strategies and types of venom are wide enough to cover all possible models of development. You can't cherry pick. I would argue your cobra model may have developed its spitting strategy as a defensive mechanism after already developing a toxic bite for subduing prey. Elapids, like most venomous snakes (but not all, in fact the King Cobra is pretty strong for an elapid)), are relatively delicate ambush predators. They bite and stand off until their prey dies (or is at least paralyzed) to avoid injury from a fighting prey item, or to be able to even swallow it without it writhing around. And some colubrids have small fangs in the rear that require a solid bite to break the skin and get the venom in the prey (or the unlucky guy's hand) since the venom isn't injected - it's in the saliva (like coral snakes). This can be dangerous for the snake, too, but only because it means it has get a solid chewing bite in there - not just stab and back out. So the venom needs to work fast and it must subdue the prey, not just irritate it or the snake could get seriously injured or not be able to eat often enough.

Since like most snakes elapids are not always the apex predator of their biome they need a defensive strategy. Rattlers have rattles, camouflage, and venom (dual purpose in both defensive and offensive capabilities), while some elapids spit. Whose to say the spitting didn't come later as a defensive strategy? The cobra starts over-salivating to get the venom in good supply (reflexive even in spiders and fanged snakes when confronted with prey or predators as preparatory to envenomation whether it be for attack or defense) and spits to maintain a safe stand off distance from the thing trying to eat it.

Its simple and the mechanisms are already in place to support that type of defense. If you try to take it the way you describe then the cobra had to use some other method of subduing its prey...the only other way snakes of that size do that is by constriction - and if that worked then the cobra would have kept that. Nature mutates, sure, but successful mutations are rewarded by staying put. And nature is conservative so it tends towards the simple explanations.

4) Yes, blood is also stored in limited quantity, but all God's children have it (at least on this planet). Same with neurospinal fluid, digestive juices, and (in my case at least ) the hair on your head.

When the animal needs more it will produce it, if not, then it won't. The level of toxicity may be linked to the size of the animal, prey, and quantity needed for the desired side effects of the toxin (rapid necrosis for example ie., snakes and spiders).

5) If the poison requires certain dietary inputs (like for a sea slug, say), then if the poison exists in the animal obviously the dietary adaptation occurred.


And, no #3 would not seem rule out predation, but it augments it some cases by protecting the predator...otherwise the strategy wouldn't be so widespread among predators. Spiders? Snakes? A lot of prey use it for defense, but most of the time that also means the prey is injured or dies in the attack, too. And not from the venom, but the bite of the predator that will now die from the poison (see Poison Arrow Frog), or use the prey's poison for it's own defense (sea slug).

Yeah, toxic flyers might envenom themselves if they crash; accidents happen. But, they also might have an immunity to their own venom. A sea slug eats polyps with nematocycsts that don't fire off and kill it...instead the nematocycsts are channeled to the nudibranch's skin to act as a defensive layer for the slug. Why don't the nematocysts fire off and kill the animal, particularly when the nudibranch didn't manufacture them itself? Primarily the reason lies in the nature of the nematocyst not reacting to lysomal enzymes excreted by the nudibranch during engulfment. So, if an animal that didn't even grow this toxic defensive mechanism in the first place (instead its prey did) can evolve to not only protect itself from its prey's defense, but use it to its own advantage, then why couldn't a toxic critter evolving on another world develop a means to avoid killing itself accidentally with its own venom?

Which brings me this final point: it's an alien ecology. Convergent evolution may play some role in similarities of behavior and appearance, but there is room enough in the universe for anything to happen. The world I have for these animals is one in which darn near every animal is toxic for some reason or another - for that and some other reasons are why it's named Gehenna. Awful place. You gotta have a lot of allergy shots before landing there. Don't touch anything or you might get a rash. It's dark and wet where it's easier for humans to live, and mean and nasty where it's less easy.

The only reason anyone lives there is its location and the colonists that ended up there on a slowboat didn't have much choice. Now it's a prime hub for biotechnology and all sorts of things otherwise illegal to research, produce, or even think of inside the Terran Empire...but once developed the corporations have markets for these things both inside and outside the Empire.
 
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cobrids?

Did you mean colubrid?

Not all venom works equally well on all creatures.

For example, weasels and monitors both have strong protection from a variety of venoms, to the point that goanna can ignore being bitten by snakes and honey badger happily[1] get repeatedly envenomed by cobras.

That extends to the argument about being introduced into a biosphere. We've seen both cases on earth, where a new creature has been introduced and has either been more susceptible to the local toxins, or much less susceptible.

[1] For small values of happy.
 
Crap, thats what I get for writing off the cuff: I meant elapids and colubrids, but in my frenzy of writing I couldn't remember the spelling. Cobrid...colubrid?

Well, it was kinda close. Good catch.

Good point on the immunity due to exposure to venom, too. It's a good strategy - the kind that makes you go, "hmmm" when considering how the animal developed that in the first place? Mongooses have some protection if they survive being bitten, but they only develop any strong immunity the same way we do: by exposure to small doses of venom over time. About 99%+ of the time they get killed by the bite, yet the species as a whole never developed an immunity on their own. Really its just their speed that protects them from being bitten in the first place.
 
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