Getting on the ground....

[Renard Ruche]

Over on this thread ( http://www.TravellerRPG.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000618 ), the subject came up of not allowing a 1G drive ship landing on a Size 8+ world. It seems fairly well supported by the rules, and as Supp4 pointed out, adds a nice dimension to the game. Also, since Traveller tends to take a look at star travel through the lens of the nautical traditions here on Earth, it fits in very well with the universe.

To illustrate this, let's take a look at some real-world situations, using shore-lines and ports as a substitute for Size.

For the first example, let's look at opening up new trade routes. Enter Colombus, Cortez and Magellen. In opening up the New World and the Pacific, they hardly found ports waiting to accept their vessels, neither did they just decide to ram their ships onto a convient beach...they anchored offshore a suitible site, then took a launch or gig onto shore. If unloading cargo, it might take several trips, though if it were a developing port, I'm sure some coastal vessels could be used for handling large loads.

For the second example, let's look at the age of the ocean liner. Generally, a liner only 'docked' twice on the leg of a voyage: When loading passengers and cargo at it's home port (say for example Cherbourg or Southampton) and when unloading passengers and cargo at it's destination (generally New York and sometimes Halifax). These liners made a few intermediate stops: the French Line routinely stopped at Southampton and also picked up mail at the small port of Cobh...but did not 'dock' at either port. Passengers, cargo and mail were ferried out to the liners in specially designed tenders. The reasons for this was varied, but in the case of the French Line's 'Normandie', it was a case of time (the liner can lay off the shore and ignore tides and the time it takes to dock something a 1000' long) and size of facilities (Cobh definately couldn't have handled docking something of that size).

So, what does this mean to your Traveller crew? Learn to love small craft! I also think the situations would be rife for roleplaying. Players would have to interact with high-port employees and patrons while getting/waiting for a shuttle (not to mention having to deal with getting back if they 'do something' on planet)...and have you ever had to find your luggage after a cruise? All of it laid out on the ground, seperated by last names...and your's is never where it's supposed to be (btw, this is the same system that has been in use since before WW1!), not to mention arguing with the stevedores (or their robot equivilants).

For ships involved in back-water trading, it would seem that the players should trade in that air/raft for an up-powered launch or upgrade the engines. This probably won't affect the Type S that much, since it has a 2G. Probably explains why the 'Leviathan' had such a nice complement of small craft taking up all that lovely space.

Anyway, just my input, but I think by enforcing the rule, you can open up tons of opportunities for roleplaying.

 

[Renard Ruche]

Over on this thread ( http://www.TravellerRPG.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000618 ), the subject came up of not allowing a 1G drive ship landing on a Size 8+ world. It seems fairly well supported by the rules, and as Supp4 pointed out, adds a nice dimension to the game. Also, since Traveller tends to take a look at star travel through the lens of the nautical traditions here on Earth, it fits in very well with the universe.

To illustrate this, let's take a look at some real-world situations, using shore-lines and ports as a substitute for Size.

For the first example, let's look at opening up new trade routes. Enter Colombus, Cortez and Magellen. In opening up the New World and the Pacific, they hardly found ports waiting to accept their vessels, neither did they just decide to ram their ships onto a convient beach...they anchored offshore a suitible site, then took a launch or gig onto shore. If unloading cargo, it might take several trips, though if it were a developing port, I'm sure some coastal vessels could be used for handling large loads.

For the second example, let's look at the age of the ocean liner. Generally, a liner only 'docked' twice on the leg of a voyage: When loading passengers and cargo at it's home port (say for example Cherbourg or Southampton) and when unloading passengers and cargo at it's destination (generally New York and sometimes Halifax). These liners made a few intermediate stops: the French Line routinely stopped at Southampton and also picked up mail at the small port of Cobh...but did not 'dock' at either port. Passengers, cargo and mail were ferried out to the liners in specially designed tenders. The reasons for this was varied, but in the case of the French Line's 'Normandie', it was a case of time (the liner can lay off the shore and ignore tides and the time it takes to dock something a 1000' long) and size of facilities (Cobh definately couldn't have handled docking something of that size).

So, what does this mean to your Traveller crew? Learn to love small craft! I also think the situations would be rife for roleplaying. Players would have to interact with high-port employees and patrons while getting/waiting for a shuttle (not to mention having to deal with getting back if they 'do something' on planet)...and have you ever had to find your luggage after a cruise? All of it laid out on the ground, seperated by last names...and your's is never where it's supposed to be (btw, this is the same system that has been in use since before WW1!), not to mention arguing with the stevedores (or their robot equivilants).

For ships involved in back-water trading, it would seem that the players should trade in that air/raft for an up-powered launch or upgrade the engines. This probably won't affect the Type S that much, since it has a 2G. Probably explains why the 'Leviathan' had such a nice complement of small craft taking up all that lovely space.

Anyway, just my input, but I think by enforcing the rule, you can open up tons of opportunities for roleplaying.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
Learn to love small craft!

That's a good point. Back in the day, I used to wonder why so many vessels had small craft--especially when the ship can just land.

I mean, why go to the extra expense? Is the craft just a lifeboat? Just for those few times that starport control won't let you go down to the planet's surface for some reason? It seems like you'd rent in those cases.

I played a campaign back in the mid-90's where the players were on this Subsidized Merchant. She had and ATV, an air/raft, and the Type R's launch.

We landed the ship a few times and took the ATV for a spin. We also took the air/raft out (one time in the upper atmo). But, we never, never used the launch. Not once.

Of course, the standard Type R's launch is a 1G vessel, so it has the same problems as the ship does landing on Size 8+ worlds....

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
Learn to love small craft!

That's a good point. Back in the day, I used to wonder why so many vessels had small craft--especially when the ship can just land.

I mean, why go to the extra expense? Is the craft just a lifeboat? Just for those few times that starport control won't let you go down to the planet's surface for some reason? It seems like you'd rent in those cases.

I played a campaign back in the mid-90's where the players were on this Subsidized Merchant. She had and ATV, an air/raft, and the Type R's launch.

We landed the ship a few times and took the ATV for a spin. We also took the air/raft out (one time in the upper atmo). But, we never, never used the launch. Not once.

Of course, the standard Type R's launch is a 1G vessel, so it has the same problems as the ship does landing on Size 8+ worlds....

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Of course, the standard Type R's launch is a 1G vessel, so it has the same problems as the ship does landing on Size 8+ worlds....

Under LBB 5 (High Guard) the smallest maneuver drive possible is 1 dTon. If 2% of the ship is MD, then the performance is 1G and if 5% of the ship is MD, then the performance is 2G. Given the LBB 5 restrictions, mounting the smallest MD into a 30 to 50 dTon hull will yield 1G performance; mounting the smallest MD into a 20 dTon hull will yield 2G performance; mounting the smallest MD into a 10 dTon hull will yield 3G performance.

The 20 dTon Launch on a Type R Subsidized Merchant should be capable of at least 2G acceleration.

 

[Renard Ruche]

True, but in the LBB/TTB versions, it's only listed as having 1G, that is why I suggested an 'uprated' launch. Of course, it's explained by Bk5, so no big deal.

One of my Traveller hobbies is designing passenger liners (I have a fixation, ok?). For one 'fleet' I came up with, I envisioned the 'express' liners never actually docked at intermediate planets or up-ports. Basically, the ship jumps in at the 100 diam mark, then 'cuts across' the circumferance, until it reaches the 100 diam mark on the opposite side. As soon as the ship is detected, the company launches passenger and cargo cutters from the port to meet the ship and load/unload passengers and cargo. Generally, this type of service is only available at major ports and systems with a high trans-ship rate. (To make this process a bit more feasible, I have a house-rule that allows a ship to come out of jump within the same 10% of time, along the same route; IF they have a navigator and full engineering staff on at all times, rotated on 6 hour shifts. This allows for planning and not having the passengers on stand-by for up to 2 days.)

 

[Renard Ruche]

True, but in the LBB/TTB versions, it's only listed as having 1G, that is why I suggested an 'uprated' launch. Of course, it's explained by Bk5, so no big deal.

One of my Traveller hobbies is designing passenger liners (I have a fixation, ok?). For one 'fleet' I came up with, I envisioned the 'express' liners never actually docked at intermediate planets or up-ports. Basically, the ship jumps in at the 100 diam mark, then 'cuts across' the circumferance, until it reaches the 100 diam mark on the opposite side. As soon as the ship is detected, the company launches passenger and cargo cutters from the port to meet the ship and load/unload passengers and cargo. Generally, this type of service is only available at major ports and systems with a high trans-ship rate. (To make this process a bit more feasible, I have a house-rule that allows a ship to come out of jump within the same 10% of time, along the same route; IF they have a navigator and full engineering staff on at all times, rotated on 6 hour shifts. This allows for planning and not having the passengers on stand-by for up to 2 days.)

 

[Supplement Four]

You know, maybe GG skimming isn't all that hazardous. It's mentioned plenty of times in CT rule books, and the only reference I can find where skimming is dangerous is for the Lightning Class Cruisers...and specific mention is made that the design of that vessel is what makes the skimming dangerous.

I'm thinking that if GG skimming was supposed to be so dangerous, then GDW would have put a throw in somewhere to describe it. There has been plenty of opportunity.

Therefore, the reason many ships don't skim is because of (A) the distance to the GG from the main world; and (B) most civilian/modular drives are not designed to use unrefined fuel (meaning, they don't have fuel purifiers).

I don't know if we're any farther along on this top than when we started, but I'm thinking that I could make GG skimming a lot easier than how I currently have it in my house rule.

Then again, my House Rule comes off without a hitch if a ship's M-Drive, it's Navigator's and/or Pilot's skill, or the Nav roll is high. Any combination of these can result in skimming without a single problem.

Hmm....pondering.

 

[Supplement Four]

You know, maybe GG skimming isn't all that hazardous. It's mentioned plenty of times in CT rule books, and the only reference I can find where skimming is dangerous is for the Lightning Class Cruisers...and specific mention is made that the design of that vessel is what makes the skimming dangerous.

I'm thinking that if GG skimming was supposed to be so dangerous, then GDW would have put a throw in somewhere to describe it. There has been plenty of opportunity.

Therefore, the reason many ships don't skim is because of (A) the distance to the GG from the main world; and (B) most civilian/modular drives are not designed to use unrefined fuel (meaning, they don't have fuel purifiers).

I don't know if we're any farther along on this top than when we started, but I'm thinking that I could make GG skimming a lot easier than how I currently have it in my house rule.

Then again, my House Rule comes off without a hitch if a ship's M-Drive, it's Navigator's and/or Pilot's skill, or the Nav roll is high. Any combination of these can result in skimming without a single problem.

Hmm....pondering.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
True, but in the LBB/TTB versions, it's only listed as having 1G, that is why I suggested an 'uprated' launch. Of course, it's explained by Bk5, so no big deal.

This is reflected in Striker vehicle designs as well.

If you build a grav vehicle, you must subtract 1G from the G rating you get when building it in order to get the vehicle's G rating that will be published with the vehicle's stats.




SMALL CRAFT

But, let's talk about small craft for a moment.

First off, small craft can't be built using Book 2 (not officially, anyway). The designs in Book 2 are standard, mass-produced models. The only thing you can do with small craft in Book 2, officially, is look at their unused space and assign fittings to them.

Book 5 comes along, and all of a sudden, small craft can be built (rather than having to purchase an entire ship with some customizing options in Book 2). And, because these vessels are custom built, they have different characteristics (just like the Type R merchant I posted in the Fuel Purifier thread).

On pg. 35 of Book 5, some of the standard designs from Book 2 small craft are custom-re-designed:

The 1G 20 ton lauch becomes a 3G 17 ton launch.

The 6G 30 ton ship's boat becomes a 4G 27 ton ship's boat.

The 5G 40 ton pinnace becomes a 6G 40 ton pinnace.

These ships are different animals. They may look the same on the outside, but one is an off-the-shelf-mass-produced vehicle for sale (per Book 2). The other is a custom made design (per Book 5).




My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.




So, how would one duplicate the small craft designs in Book 2 if one wanted to?

Use the Striker Vehicle Design Rules.

Using Striker vehicle design, one is not limited to the 1 ton Grav Drives of Book 5. Striker vehicle rules allow for much, much smaller Grav Drives (You wouldn't put a 1 ton Grav Drive in an air/raft would you? Well, you might, but you sure wouldn't put one in a missile). Striker vehicle design rules allow for grav generators as small as .02 cubic meters, weighing 2 tons, producing 1 ton of thrust.

So, under Book 5, the minimum G rating for a 20 ton launch is 2 Gs. If you design that same 20 ton launch using Striker Vehicle Design Sequences, you can actually design it with a little thurst as 0.1 Gs.

On pg. 11 of Striker Book 3, it says this: "A grav vehicle has Gs of acceleration equal to its thrust in tons divided by its weight, also in tons. One G is needed to keep the vehicle in the air (and if its thrust is less than one G, the vehicle cannot move); thrust in excess of one G is used for maneuver. Thus to find maneuver Gs, subtract one from the total G value.

So the 20 ton launch featured in Book 2, in order to have that 1G rating listed in its stats, must actually produce 2Gs of thrust.




CONCLUSION

(1) Book 2 small craft can be exactly duplicated using Striker Vehicle Design rules and therefore make those rules a better choice for making that type of small craft (vs. Bk 5, which is more geared towards larger spacecraft).

(2) That Book 2 small craft should have their M-Drives considered 1G higher, up to a maximum of 6Gs, when considering operations in space.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
True, but in the LBB/TTB versions, it's only listed as having 1G, that is why I suggested an 'uprated' launch. Of course, it's explained by Bk5, so no big deal.

This is reflected in Striker vehicle designs as well.

If you build a grav vehicle, you must subtract 1G from the G rating you get when building it in order to get the vehicle's G rating that will be published with the vehicle's stats.




SMALL CRAFT

But, let's talk about small craft for a moment.

First off, small craft can't be built using Book 2 (not officially, anyway). The designs in Book 2 are standard, mass-produced models. The only thing you can do with small craft in Book 2, officially, is look at their unused space and assign fittings to them.

Book 5 comes along, and all of a sudden, small craft can be built (rather than having to purchase an entire ship with some customizing options in Book 2). And, because these vessels are custom built, they have different characteristics (just like the Type R merchant I posted in the Fuel Purifier thread).

On pg. 35 of Book 5, some of the standard designs from Book 2 small craft are custom-re-designed:

The 1G 20 ton lauch becomes a 3G 17 ton launch.

The 6G 30 ton ship's boat becomes a 4G 27 ton ship's boat.

The 5G 40 ton pinnace becomes a 6G 40 ton pinnace.

These ships are different animals. They may look the same on the outside, but one is an off-the-shelf-mass-produced vehicle for sale (per Book 2). The other is a custom made design (per Book 5).




My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.




So, how would one duplicate the small craft designs in Book 2 if one wanted to?

Use the Striker Vehicle Design Rules.

Using Striker vehicle design, one is not limited to the 1 ton Grav Drives of Book 5. Striker vehicle rules allow for much, much smaller Grav Drives (You wouldn't put a 1 ton Grav Drive in an air/raft would you? Well, you might, but you sure wouldn't put one in a missile). Striker vehicle design rules allow for grav generators as small as .02 cubic meters, weighing 2 tons, producing 1 ton of thrust.

So, under Book 5, the minimum G rating for a 20 ton launch is 2 Gs. If you design that same 20 ton launch using Striker Vehicle Design Sequences, you can actually design it with a little thurst as 0.1 Gs.

On pg. 11 of Striker Book 3, it says this: "A grav vehicle has Gs of acceleration equal to its thrust in tons divided by its weight, also in tons. One G is needed to keep the vehicle in the air (and if its thrust is less than one G, the vehicle cannot move); thrust in excess of one G is used for maneuver. Thus to find maneuver Gs, subtract one from the total G value.

So the 20 ton launch featured in Book 2, in order to have that 1G rating listed in its stats, must actually produce 2Gs of thrust.




CONCLUSION

(1) Book 2 small craft can be exactly duplicated using Striker Vehicle Design rules and therefore make those rules a better choice for making that type of small craft (vs. Bk 5, which is more geared towards larger spacecraft).

(2) That Book 2 small craft should have their M-Drives considered 1G higher, up to a maximum of 6Gs, when considering operations in space.

 

[Prospero]

I have no idea what the actual rule is, but I always assumed that the G-rating was G's above background. Otherwise, it seems like the standard rating would be higher to accommodate different sized worlds. I mean if you can't take off from a 1.1 g world...seems dumb. Just our house rule...one less thing to worry about.

NT

 

[Prospero]

I have no idea what the actual rule is, but I always assumed that the G-rating was G's above background. Otherwise, it seems like the standard rating would be higher to accommodate different sized worlds. I mean if you can't take off from a 1.1 g world...seems dumb. Just our house rule...one less thing to worry about.

NT

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So...a good general rule of thumb for CT vehicles and spaceships (non-starships) is to add 1G to their G rating when the ship operates in space?

I don't think so.

Compare the vehicles again. You have 1G of Contra-Grav lift to be neutrally bouyant on a 1G world* and whatever you add after that is the maneuver thrust.

Same rule applies to spacecraft. The difference being the Contragrav is built in at the start (you might consider it part of the hull and/or bridge in B2 and B5 for cost and volume). Then you add the maneuver drives.

The important bit is that Contragrav sucks outside a strong gravity influence. Such that you can (barely) make orbit with it and a little thrust. By the time you hit orbit your Contragrav is working at 0G and adds nothing to space performance. And all it does in the presence of gravity is neutralize it.

That's my take in a nutshell, more or less.

* that's always bugged me, my personal "fix" was the first 1G of Contragrav was a simple null of local gravity whatever it was

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So...a good general rule of thumb for CT vehicles and spaceships (non-starships) is to add 1G to their G rating when the ship operates in space?

I don't think so.

Compare the vehicles again. You have 1G of Contra-Grav lift to be neutrally bouyant on a 1G world* and whatever you add after that is the maneuver thrust.

Same rule applies to spacecraft. The difference being the Contragrav is built in at the start (you might consider it part of the hull and/or bridge in B2 and B5 for cost and volume). Then you add the maneuver drives.

The important bit is that Contragrav sucks outside a strong gravity influence. Such that you can (barely) make orbit with it and a little thrust. By the time you hit orbit your Contragrav is working at 0G and adds nothing to space performance. And all it does in the presence of gravity is neutralize it.

That's my take in a nutshell, more or less.

* that's always bugged me, my personal "fix" was the first 1G of Contragrav was a simple null of local gravity whatever it was

 

[Supplement Four]

Oops. I edited my post above while two others were posting to it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Oops. I edited my post above while two others were posting to it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Prospero:
I mean if you can't take off from a 1.1 g world...seems dumb.

This part has been covered. See the Fuel Purifcation thread.

Small Craft: +1G rating when in space.

Large Craft (100+ tons): Subtract planetary gravity from the STANDARD WORLDS table in the LBBs before figuring the ship's G rating in the atmo of the planet.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Prospero:
I mean if you can't take off from a 1.1 g world...seems dumb.

This part has been covered. See the Fuel Purifcation thread.

Small Craft: +1G rating when in space.

Large Craft (100+ tons): Subtract planetary gravity from the STANDARD WORLDS table in the LBBs before figuring the ship's G rating in the atmo of the planet.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
<snippage>

My point: Book 5 design sequences cannot duplicate Book 2 small craft.

It can. I have.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So, how would one duplicate the small craft designs in Book 2 if one wanted to?

Use the Striker Vehicle Design Rules.

Nope, that WILL produce totally different animals. I repeat, you can indeed duplicate the B2 designs (not just small craft but the starships as well) using B5 and some small presumptions.

I disagree quite strongly with your take on a number of issues