• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Geneva Convention equivalent

McPerth

SOC-14 5K
Admin Award
Administrator
Moderator
Peer of the Realm
In various threads where the fact of taking prisoners or capturing ships were discussed about, I began to wonder if there is some kind of Geneva Convention equivalent in OTU.

I've always refereed Traveller assuming it exists, but, being a Red Cross volunteer for more than 25 years now, I understand my opinion may (must?) be biased.

I've found no reference to it. I guess in wars fought inside the Imperium, Imperial Laws of War take its role, but, what about foreign wars (Solomani War, Frontier Wars, etc)?

Do you know if it exists?

Does it exist in your TU?
 
I think its assumed McPerth because the alternative would make this a horror role playing game.

It amazes me even what our American troops have done in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last couple years. (I understand there is a lot of stress on the battlefield). Even right now whats being done in Libya is a travesty. I was amazed to read about workers for a timbering company in the Amazon tying up an 8 year old native Indian girl to a tree and setting her on fire to warn other tribesmen not to interfere as the company encroached on their land.

Without some rules of war, imagine your worst thoughts and then multiple that by least a hundred of what kinds of atrocities would be committed.

There is a lot of weird sadistic people in the world!
 
Last edited:
In various threads where the fact of taking prisoners or capturing ships were discussed about, I began to wonder if there is some kind of Geneva Convention equivalent in OTU.

I've always refereed Traveller assuming it exists, but, being a Red Cross volunteer for more than 25 years now, I understand my opinion may (must?) be biased.

I've found no reference to it. I guess in wars fought inside the Imperium, Imperial Laws of War take its role, but, what about foreign wars (Solomani War, Frontier Wars, etc)?

Do you know if it exists?

Does it exist in your TU?

Even before the Geneva convention, there were rules of war and post Geneva, wars happened with without it's rules being enforced, like WW2 between Germany and the Soviets. I say there is certain rules, such as fair treatment of prisoners (iirc in Spinward Marches Campaign there is a case of a Marine being brought up on warcrimes charges). Maybe there isn't a Geneva convention as such, but say the Zhodani and Imperials are both civilized states and don't go out of their way to inflict needless cruelty. The caprice of human nature is what it is though and there will always be abuses.
 
The Royal Navy's Articles of War had a couple that dealt with how to treat prisoners of war, not because of any treaties, but simply because that was the proper way to treat prisoners.

My take is that the Imperial Code of Military Justice is more or less copied from the Sylean Federation's code of military justice, and that that in turn was more or less copied from the 2nd Imperium's code of military justice, and that was copied almost verbatim from the Terran Condereration's code of military justice (with perhaps a small leavening of stuff from the 1st Imperium's code), and that in turn was formulated by the United Nations, and thus embodied the Geneva Conventions.

As for canon evidence of conventions of war, I can think of two:

a) There is an NPC in either Tarsus or Beltstrike that was capture early in the 5FW and exchanged in time to participate in one of the last battles of the war. Prisoner exchange even while a war is still going on must therefore be a convention of war (and not one they got from the Geneva Convention, I believe).

b) The Imperial were very indignant that the Sword Worlders attacked Lanth without a prior declaration of war. Also, the Zhodani delivered a declaration of war after the news of a Zhodani task force at Ruie had reached Regina (but quite possibly before any Zhodani ship violated Imperial territory -- Ruie was technically outside the Imperial border at the time). So declarations of war seems to be another convention.​


Hans
 
The whole "UN in space" beggars belief imo, and that anyone 3500 years in the future knows about today.
 
The whole "UN in space" beggars belief imo, and that anyone 3500 years in the future knows about today.

Right, because nobody today knows about the Code of Hammurabi and nothing of modern law was derived from it :)

...of course that's not quite 3500 years in the past, only about 3200 years past, I'm sure everybody will have forgotten about it in the next 300 years.
 
The whole "UN in space" beggars belief imo, and that anyone 3500 years in the future knows about today.
I didn't say anything at all about UN in space. I was talking about the cultural heritage of a state whose military laws are called the Imperial Code of Military Justice.


Hans
 
Right, because nobody today knows about the Code of Hammurabi and nothing of modern law was derived from it :)

...of course that's not quite 3500 years in the past, only about 3200 years past, I'm sure everybody will have forgotten about it in the next 300 years.

It was 3789 years ago according to the wiki. ;)

Though I can't say I have ever heard of a politician using the Code of Hammurabi as a precedent for legislation. It's almost a pythonesque moment, I can see John Cleese standing up as an MP and saying: "In the Code of Hammurabi..."
 
I didn't say anything at all about UN in space. I was talking about the cultural heritage of a state whose military laws are called the Imperial Code of Military Justice.


Hans

Just the same, canon states the Terran government was going to enslave the Vilani which forced Estargarriba to do his coup d'etat. A pretty big violation of what is in the Geneva Convention.
 
Just the same, canon states the Terran government was going to enslave the Vilani which forced Estargarriba to do his coup d'etat. A pretty big violation of what is in the Geneva Convention.
That's not precisely what canon says the Terran Government was going to do, and I don't believe that the Geneva Conventions deal with what the Confederation was trying to pull. Be that as it may, who is to say that Hiroshi did not establish the Rule of Man to preserve the ideals of the Terran Confederation because the TC leaders had shown they couldn't do it? The format he chose (autocracy) was arguably forced on him by the nature of interstellar governance.


Hans
 
It was 3789 years ago according to the wiki. ;)

My mistake :) I should have checked the date rather than relying on foggy memory, thanks for the data.

Though I can't say I have ever heard of a politician using the Code of Hammurabi as a precedent for legislation. It's almost a pythonesque moment, I can see John Cleese standing up as an MP and saying: "In the Code of Hammurabi..."

:rofl:

...you know, that rings a bell, I wonder if they didn't throw it in a skit or movie somewhere? Or someone else.

Anyway, not so much precedent but oldest recorded implementation of many laws still in use today.
 
My mistake :) I should have checked the date rather than relying on foggy memory, thanks for the data.

Though you are right, I did look it up because of your post. :)


:rofl:

...you know, that rings a bell, I wonder if they didn't throw it in a skit or movie somewhere? Or someone else.

Anyway, not so much precedent but oldest recorded implementation of many laws still in use today.

It would be humorous, I wouldn't be suprised if they have had it in a skit.

Though IMTU, if it ever came up, I would say the Imperium derives it's jurisprudence from it's own experience, or at least that is what they would say. Such as we are THE Imperium, bar none, we own the sky.
 
That's not precisely what canon says the Terran Government was going to do, and I don't believe that the Geneva Conventions deal with what the Confederation was trying to pull. Be that as it may, who is to say that Hiroshi did not establish the Rule of Man to preserve the ideals of the Terran Confederation because the TC leaders had shown they couldn't do it? The format he chose (autocracy) was arguably forced on him by the nature of interstellar governance.


Hans

Geneva Convention mostly deals with PoW's and their treatment, but in later legislation, it is very clear the treatment of civilians.

Here is the quote from AM6, pg 6:

In -2204, the Terran Secretariat voted to transfer control of
the conquered territories directly to Terra; the Vilani Empire was
to be incorporated into the Terran Confederation and administered
as the spoils of war. Such a move could effectively
multiply the wealth of each Terran by 15,000, making them instant
millionaires- but at an untold cost to the citizens of the
Vilani Empire.


It is arguable how to interpet that, but at best it sounds 3rd Reich-ish, which is sort of the meme through the whole module. My interpetation I posted in the Solomani thread is a bit dark, but plausible, doesn't contravene canon and ties up some loose ends. I would also add to it, at least IMTU, that the nobility stems from this time, as groups of Terran Cyborg Super Soldiers set themselves up as "Knight Protectors" of the Vilani.
 
Even before the Geneva convention, there were rules of war and post Geneva, wars happened with without it's rules being enforced, like WW2 between Germany and the Soviets. I say there is certain rules, such as fair treatment of prisoners (iirc in Spinward Marches Campaign there is a case of a Marine being brought up on warcrimes charges). Maybe there isn't a Geneva convention as such, but say the Zhodani and Imperials are both civilized states and don't go out of their way to inflict needless cruelty. The caprice of human nature is what it is though and there will always be abuses.

Sure there were unwritten laws of war before the Geneva Convention, but, as unwritten they were, they were subject to interpretation and many new tactics were seen as breaking them (e.g. US revolution and french revolutionary tactics to shoot at the officers to break the ranks were seen at their time as war attrocities).

And sure too many breakings of the Convention have occurred after its signing (in WWII it was not only broken in the Russian front, nearly the only point not broken in WWII was the banning of chemical weapons). The fact of being civilized nations don't mean they don't commit war attrocities, if history is to show us anything.

The Royal Navy's Articles of War had a couple that dealt with how to treat prisoners of war, not because of any treaties, but simply because that was the proper way to treat prisoners.

Sure, but there was a tradition, in naval combat, to take prisoners (after all the laws of the sea, form quite before, gave sailors a honor bond to rescue shipwrecked), but also not to scuttle the ship. I see it (not sure it was) as a quid pro quo agreement: you don't scuttle your ship, I treat 'well' your surrounded personnel. Lawrence's don't give up the ship was seen by many as a unnecessary loss of lives, and as such as a breaking of the war uses (I don't dare to call them laws) in his time.

Since its signing (and severeal tech developements that difficulted boardings, among other things, I'm not saying here there's a single cause), few (if any) warships have been captured in combat. I wonder if the fact the shipwrecked had legal protection, even if they scuttled the ship, has also its part in that.

My take is that the Imperial Code of Military Justice is more or less copied from the Sylean Federation's code of military justice, and that that in turn was more or less copied from the 2nd Imperium's code of military justice, and that was copied almost verbatim from the Terran Condereration's code of military justice (with perhaps a small leavening of stuff from the 1st Imperium's code), and that in turn was formulated by the United Nations, and thus embodied the Geneva Conventions.

But this code would only apply to Imperials (and probaly Solomani). what I mean is a broader agreement with (at least) other human states (I understand it could be more difficult to bind in this agreement Varg or K'Kree, due to their diferent psicologies. Aslan I see easier, as honor is very important for them, and they have strict war laws).

Just the same, canon states the Terran government was going to enslave the Vilani which forced Estargarriba to do his coup d'etat. A pretty big violation of what is in the Geneva Convention.

I gess you mean the enslaving of the civilian population would be a break of the Convention. Estigarribia's coup wouldn't, as Geneva Convention doesn't deal with coupt d'etat.

So seen, Estigarribia was defending the Convention, but that was made by Terran military, where the idea of the Convention has been ingrained for centuries, when Estigarribia made his coup.

Though IMTU, if it ever came up, I would say the Imperium derives it's jurisprudence from it's own experience, or at least that is what they would say. Such as we are THE Imperium, bar none, we own the sky.

And this lead to Imperial Laws of War, but are they applied in broader wars?
 
But this code would only apply to Imperials (and probaly Solomani). what I mean is a broader agreement with (at least) other human states (I understand it could be more difficult to bind in this agreement Varg or K'Kree, due to their diferent psycologies. Aslan I see easier, as honor is very important for them, and they have strict war laws).
Everyone Solomani share the cultural tradition of the Geneva Conventions (This is not to say that some wouldn't have abandoned them or forgotten about them later). Almost every Vilani share the cultural tradition of the Second Imperium's code of military justice (they did have it imposed upon them for 400 years and more). Many minor races likewise had it imposed upon them during the Second and Third Imperium. That leaves the Zhodani, and they've been in contact with the Imperium for a millenium and fought several big wars and who know how many proxy wars in that time. By the Classic Era they've had more than enough time to work out their own set of conventions of war. Perhaps they had something very similar of their own even before they met the Imperials; who knows?

Beyond that, who says there are any broader agreements? The Aslans have their own conventions (a whole slew of different ones, actually) and I don't think they'd modify any of them one iota to accomodate humans, but they must have some that works well enough to suit Imperials, though I'm quite sure there will be some mutual disagreements here and there[*]. As for other neighbors, they'd learn from experience that if they treated prisoners harshly, they and their leaders would be spaced if they lost whereas if they treated them decently, they wouldn't be even if they lost. That alone might impose a sort of Geneva agreement unilaterally.

[*] One of the many half-finished adventures on my back burners is one that hinges on Aslans trying to revenge themselves on someone for something a direct ancestor in the male line did 500 years earlier. He ordered the execution of a number of Aslan warriors and leaders for using poison gas against guerillas.

"You say that when dealing with people without honor -- by which I gather you mean anyone whose notions of honor differ from those of your own -- it is your custom to treat them as expeditiously as possible. Well, the Imperium has its customs too. When someone uses poison gas against people who are under the Imperium's protection, it is our custom to take them, together with those who ordered the deed, and put them in an airlock, whereupon we open the airlock and leave them to drift in the cold dark of outer space for all eternity. You have practiced your custom. Now we will practice our."

-- Vice Admiral the Lord Roderick Gianbatista
CO, Outrim Void Task Force, 045-645​



Hans
 
Ah yes - that famous Vilani code of war that allows for the nuking of a planet back to the stone age if it doesn't surrender immediately.
 
Everyone Solomani share the cultural tradition of the Geneva Conventions (This is not to say that some wouldn't have abandoned them or forgotten about them later). Almost every Vilani share the cultural tradition of the Second Imperium's code of military justice (they did have it imposed upon them for 400 years and more). Many minor races likewise had it imposed upon them during the Second and Third Imperium. That leaves the Zhodani, and they've been in contact with the Imperium for a millenium and fought several big wars and who know how many proxy wars in that time. By the Classic Era they've had more than enough time to work out their own set of conventions of war. Perhaps they had something very similar of their own even before they met the Imperials; who knows?

Beyond that, who says there are any broader agreements? The Aslans have their own conventions (a whole slew of different ones, actually) and I don't think they'd modify any of them one iota to accomodate humans, but they must have some that works well enough to suit Imperials, though I'm quite sure there will be some mutual disagreements here and there[*]. As for other neighbors, they'd learn from experience that if they treated prisoners harshly, they and their leaders would be spaced if they lost whereas if they treated them decently, they wouldn't be even if they lost. That alone might impose a sort of Geneva agreement unilaterally.

Aslan have strict laws of war, according to CT:AM1 and MT:S&A. They agree the battlefied and forces before fighting, don't use warbots unless the enemy also have them, etc.

The Aslan War was fought with honor, as the Imperium agreed to fight with Aslan rules. That's one of the reasons the Peace of Fealthir has lasted so long. I guess it would be easy to agree war rules, on the line of the Convention or their way (that it's quite acceptable too).


Ah yes - that famous Vilani code of war that allows for the nuking of a planet back to the stone age if it doesn't surrender immediately.
Void by reason of supercession.

Form MT:V&V (page 37):

Oponents often find Vilani strategies surprising. (...)once they decide war is the only answer, they are ruthless adversaries. They rarely take prisoners, unse nuclear and biochemical weapons freely, and have no compunctions about sterilizing entire planets,.Vilani forces use any and all cost-effective tactics, incluiding hostage-taking, terrorism and other will-breaking methods

Not too fitting into the Geneva Convetion..
 
Last edited:
Aslan have strict laws of war, according to CT:AM1 and MT:S&A. They agree the battlefied and forces before fighting, don't use warbots unless the enemy also have them, etc.
But all that presupposes that the opponents stick to the same rules. When they don't, the Aslans don't either.

From MT:V&V (page 37):

Oponents iftern find Vilani strategies surprising. (...)once they decide war is the only answer, they are ruthless adversaries. They rarely take prisoners, unse nuclear and biochemical weapons freely, and have no compunctions about sterilizing entire planets,.Vilani forces use any and all cost-effective tactics, incluiding hostage-taking, terrorism and other will-breaking methods.

Not too fitting into the Geneva Convetion..
That's in connection with the Ziru Sirkaa, not the Vilani Sphere under the Third Imperium. The Ziru Sirkaa is reviving the glory days of the Ziru Sirka.

Or at least they would like to. Cost effectiveness is one thing when your enemies are unable to reach your homeworlds. It's something entirely different when you're at risk of getting a taste of your own medicine.

"Treat your ememies in a way that will make them furiously angry with you" is really only cost-effective if you're certain you'll never lose. And not always then (depending on what losses an infuriated enemy can inflict before he succumbs).


Hans
 
It is arguable how to interpet that, but at best it sounds 3rd Reich-ish, which is sort of the meme through the whole module.
This intepretation suffers from a phenomenon for which there needs to be a term: The tendency to compare everything to Hitler.

As written, it much rather sounds like a colonialist setup.
 
Back
Top