Geneva Convention equivalent

[BwapTED]

In various threads where the fact of taking prisoners or capturing ships were discussed about, I began to wonder if there is some kind of Geneva Convention equivalent in OTU.

I've always refereed Traveller assuming it exists, but, being a Red Cross volunteer for more than 25 years now, I understand my opinion may (must?) be biased.

I've found no reference to it. I guess in wars fought inside the Imperium, Imperial Laws of War take its role, but, what about foreign wars (Solomani War, Frontier Wars, etc)?

Do you know if it exists?

Does it exist in your TU?

It's ancient history IMTU.
Hardly anyone has ever heard of it.

Many of the same basic ideas (most of which are quite a lot older than the Conventions-- check out Islamic rules of warfare, the medieval Peace of God, and also the various 'capitulations' and articles of war used by Early Modern and 19th Century powers) are included in the laws and regulations of the Imperial services.




IMC, one of the players plays a disgraced war-criminal. Taking a chance on spotty intelligence, he called in an artillery strike on a camp that turned out to be full of women, children, and a few old men. No armed rebels. Almost everyone was killed or maimed. He would probably have been cleared and returned to duty (fog of war leads to collateral damage, Imperium grinds on) except that one of the people killed turned out to be a niece of an Imperial Knight, who was visiting the refugee camp to perform a humanitarian inspection. Her death ruined his career.

The PC is pretty messed up. Depressed after being booted from the IA, he attempted suicide but flubbed it, shooting himself through the cheek. He’s tried to pass of his facial scars as the result of dueling, and his discharge as punishment for deflowering the beautiful daughter of a noble.

 

[Timerover51]

. . . .
And sure too many breakings of the Convention have occurred after its signing (in WWII it was not only broken in the Russian front, nearly the only point not broken in WWII was the banning of chemical weapons). The fact of being civilized nations don't mean they don't commit war attrocities, if history is to show us anything.

Prior to World War 2, Italian used air-sprayed mustard agent in Ethiopian with quite deadly effects. Japan used both chemical and biological agents in China, using it as a testing ground. They had a chemical unit assigned to the Midway Invasion Force in the middle of 1943. They had a highly devoped means of producing various biological agents, as well as a perfectly eff.ective anthrax fragmentation bomb to be used if the U.S. invaded Japan. The U.S. high command knew about the anthrax bomb prior to the use of the atomic bomb on Japan.

The Polish Resistance was producing biological agents in occupied Poland to use on the Germans forces heading for the Eastern Front. The U.S.had an ammunition ships carrying a cargo of mustard agent bombs blow up in Bari harbor in Italy, causing a large number of mustard agent casualties, while the British contaminated an island off of the Scottish coast with anthrax while testing anthrax weapons.

Egypt used Soviet-supplied chemical weapons in Yemen Civil War in the 1960s, while the then Soviet Union used chemical weapons fairly extensively in Afghanistan in the 1980s, while Iraq and Iran used chemical weapons on each other during their war in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s.

Sure, but there was a tradition, in naval combat, to take prisoners (after all the laws of the sea, form quite before, gave sailors a honor bond to rescue shipwrecked), but also not to scuttle the ship. I see it (not sure it was) as a quid pro quo agreement: you don't scuttle your ship, I treat 'well' your surrounded personnel. Lawrence's don't give up the ship was seen by many as a unnecessary loss of lives, and as such as a breaking of the war uses (I don't dare to call them laws) in his time.

You need to read about the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March of 1943 to see how the U.S. and Australians slaughtered roughly 3,000 Japanese soldiers in the water following the sinking of their transports.

You also need to read about the British treatment of captured American seamen during the Revolution on the "hell ships" off of Long Island.

 

[Condottiere]

Unless you're an aristocrat or officer, being a prisoner of war was never going to be a pleasant experience.

As I understand it, the American Civil War prisoner camps weren't picnics either.

 

[Proneutron]

Unless you're an aristocrat or officer, being a prisoner of war was never going to be a pleasant experience.

NOT true. German and Italian POWs in the USA & Canada actually had a pleasant time. They were better off than many people living in the USA & Canada at the time. I've read a dozen accounts from those POWs. Many actually got passes into town and dated local girls. Wooing them with food items civilians couldn't get because of rationing. Many earned college degrees while in the States as "prisoners".

 

[Condottiere]

The British put the senior German officers they captured into a mansion and bugged them.

As regards the Great Patriotic War, the Western prisoners of war were treated differently from the Russians.

It depends a great deal of the inconvenience they cause, and how total of a war you're fighting. At any number of occasions from now until the distant past, captured soldiers were massacred, whether out of vengeance, to send a message, to eliminate a future threat, or because they couldn't be controlled.

There were other times, when prisoner swaps were an option, and you could give your word that the captured units would not be used against the capturing opponent if they were released.

 

[McPerth]

Prior to World War 2, Italian used air-sprayed mustard agent in Ethiopian with quite deadly effects. Japan used both chemical and biological agents in China, using it as a testing ground. They had a chemical unit assigned to the Midway Invasion Force in the middle of 1943. They had a highly devoped means of producing various biological agents, as well as a perfectly eff.ective anthrax fragmentation bomb to be used if the U.S. invaded Japan. The U.S. high command knew about the anthrax bomb prior to the use of the atomic bomb on Japan.

The Polish Resistance was producing biological agents in occupied Poland to use on the Germans forces heading for the Eastern Front. The U.S.had an ammunition ships carrying a cargo of mustard agent bombs blow up in Bari harbor in Italy, causing a large number of mustard agent casualties, while the British contaminated an island off of the Scottish coast with anthrax while testing anthrax weapons.

Egypt used Soviet-supplied chemical weapons in Yemen Civil War in the 1960s, while the then Soviet Union used chemical weapons fairly extensively in Afghanistan in the 1980s, while Iraq and Iran used chemical weapons on each other during their war in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s.

None of this makes my poin invalid, as the examples you talk about here are either previous to WWII (Italy in Abissinia) or biological, not chemical, weapons.

You also forgot the intial plans for Okinawa included the use of chemical weapons, but President Roosvelt turned them down.

Fact is many war students in 1930's expected generalized use of Chemical Weapons if any major war occurred, and they were quite wrong. It's said that the fact both Hitles (a chemical weapons casualty himself in WWI) and Roosvelt were against them may have had its weight there.

You need to read about the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March of 1943 to see how the U.S. and Australians slaughtered roughly 3,000 Japanese soldiers in the water following the sinking of their transports.

You also need to read about the British treatment of captured American seamen during the Revolution on the "hell ships" off of Long Island.

Sure, there have been breaches, as in any law, but most naval actions along history (at least European/US history) have kept with the told rules, at least until ship capture was no longer a usual option.

 

[Proneutron]

You also forgot the intial plans for Okinawa included the use of chemical weapons, but President Roosvelt turned them down.

FDR & Churchill renounced and cancelled ANY use of chemical weapons YEARS before the plan you are talking about was drawn up. The Army simply threw all options (legal or not) into the initial write up. It was not thought to be a real option by the Army staff.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As regards the Great Patriotic War, the Western prisoners of war were treated differently from the Russians.

Of course; The Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva Convention, and had no intention of treating PoWs well.

The Western Allies, just like Germany, had signed the Geneva Convention and treated German PoWs decently, so the Germans reciprocated.

 

[Proneutron]

Of course; The Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva Convention, and had no intention of treating PoWs well.

The Western Allies, just like Germany, had signed the Geneva Convention and treated German PoWs decently, so the Germans reciprocated.

Yes, Göring was especially active in trying to protect captured German flyers in US/UK prison camps by having those countries flyers guarded by Luftwaffe personnel rather than Army or SS

 

[Enoki]

NOT true. German and Italian POWs in the USA & Canada actually had a pleasant time. They were better off than many people living in the USA & Canada at the time. I've read a dozen accounts from those POWs. Many actually got passes into town and dated local girls. Wooing them with food items civilians couldn't get because of rationing. Many earned college degrees while in the States as "prisoners".

Many were actually surprised that the US military gave them a small pay allowance that could be supplemented by volunteering to work at local businesses or on farms to the point some were earning more than they had serving in the Germany military.

https://www.germanpulse.com/2012/02...rld-war-ii-pows-in-frederick-maryland-part-1/

 

[Condottiere]

You can open any number of cans of worms with this.

Western European tradition probably harks back to the fact of extensive internecine warfare, where captured prisoners of means can be ransomed back, to eventual reciprocity of all captured personnel. Of course, peasant levies didn't count, and when need overcame greed, Agincourt.

At the same time, Aztecs needed prisoners of war to sacrifice to their pantheon.

Mongols tended to massacre theirs, regardless of promises made; unless they saw an immediate use of them.

 

[Fovean]

CT Third Imperium has repatriation bonds for mercenaries. Legal combatants legally getting the hell out to freedom when the conflict (contract) ends. SNAFUs happen of course. One presumes the locals are immune to/denied such rights.

Apparently this the right and suggested way of doing things in 1105-ish. So not really Geneva Convention, more like gun’n’knife convention.

How does a repatriation bond get put into effect? That’s the most ubiquitous combatants’ rights declaration I know of in the OTU.

I guess the devil is in the details; if you lose and your force surrenders, how many fingers does a typical merc trooper give up before the lawyers (nobles?) show up? How do the lawyers/nobles know when the battle/campaign is “over” if the outcome is not definitive? Do the force commanders have tea and compare notes? Are the 3I’s rules of war merely corporate contracts?

Merchant Princes may be more powerful than we realized...

 

[Proneutron]

Many were actually surprised that the US military gave them a small pay allowance that could be supplemented by volunteering to work at local businesses or on farms to the point some were earning more than they had serving in the Germany military.

https://www.germanpulse.com/2012/02...rld-war-ii-pows-in-frederick-maryland-part-1/

Fascinating read

 

[Timerover51]

CT Third Imperium has repatriation bonds for mercenaries. Legal combatants legally getting the hell out to freedom when the conflict (contract) ends. SNAFUs happen of course. One presumes the locals are immune to/denied such rights.

Apparently this the right and suggested way of doing things in 1105-ish. So not really Geneva Convention, more like gun’n’knife convention.

How does a repatriation bond get put into effect? That’s the most ubiquitous combatants’ rights declaration I know of in the OTU.

I guess the devil is in the details; if you lose and your force surrenders, how many fingers does a typical merc trooper give up before the lawyers (nobles?) show up? How do the lawyers/nobles know when the battle/campaign is “over” if the outcome is not definitive? Do the force commanders have tea and compare notes? Are the 3I’s rules of war merely corporate contracts?

Merchant Princes may be more powerful than we realized...

I would say that it depends on how badly the winners want to get their hands on the mercenaries for whatever actions the winners deem as unacceptable. If the winners tear up the reparation bond and massacre the now captured mercenaries, is the Imperium really going to care?

 

[McPerth]

I would say that it depends on how badly the winners want to get their hands on the mercenaries for whatever actions the winners deem as unacceptable. If the winners tear up the reparation bond and massacre the now captured mercenaries, is the Imperium really going to care?

Of course there are cases where repatriation bonds are not honored. IIRC there was a striker adventure in JTAS where this was the case and the mercs had to reach the ship that could take them off by force.

But OTOH those bonds use to be guaranteed by outside Corps (I guess Megacorps in most cases), so even in the Megacorps have not interests in the mercs themselves (many tickets are sponsored by them), they may have as guarants, and crossing their way is usually not an advisable way to go.

 

[Timerover51]

Of course there are cases where repatriation bonds are not honored. IIRC there was a striker adventure in JTAS where this was the case and the mercs had to reach the ship that could take them off by force.

But OTOH those bonds use to be guaranteed by outside Corps (I guess Megacorps in most cases), so even in the Megacorps have not interests in the mercs themselves (many tickets are sponsored by them), they may have as guarants, and crossing their way is usually not an advisable way to go.

Why would a MegaCorp be upset? As the repatriation bonds were not used, they are not out any money. If the local forces defeated their mercenaries, are they likely to compound their losses by sponsoring more units? A planet could likely get a lot of off-world volunteers and assistance from those individuals and groups that actively dislike MegaCorps.

 

[Enoki]

With nobles, at least so far as those polities that have them, I'd think that there'd be some gentleman's agreement between then that you don't off nobles. Instead, when a noble is captured he is turned in to the capturing side's nobility for a handsome reward that is then repatriated from the other side as a from of ransom payment for his safe return.
I could see Knights maybe being an exception to this.

For non-nobility in the military it would amount to an incentive to capture nobles alive for the reward money while the nobility would encourage it to save their skins in a war from deprivation in a POW camp or being "accidently" killed when captured.

 

[whartung]

I would say that it depends on how badly the winners want to get their hands on the mercenaries for whatever actions the winners deem as unacceptable. If the winners tear up the reparation bond and massacre the now captured mercenaries, is the Imperium really going to care?

Well that's the nut. What are the consequences to the victor if the repatriation bond is not honored.

I think in most legacy mercenary sci-fi, mercenary work is an intrinsic part of interstellar politics and dishonoring the bond essentially got the party blackballed from any of the merc companies every working with them again. And that threat of not being able to tap in to that market was enough of a deterrent.

At the same time, it was in the mercs best interest to maintain a high level of "fair play".

It wasn't quite "Taste of Armageddon" level of a clinical approach to war, that is, striving to make it "just business" like the Mafia, vs emotional. But, it was down that slippery slope.

The merc companies all wanted to go home in the end, and no one wants to get hurt. If everyone treats is a game of paintball with real weapons, with things accomplished an guaranteed with a handshake vs a murderous fight for survival at all costs, then all of the participants are more apt to "play by the rules".

The classic example, even today, is Squad A kicks in the door to find a room full of enemy soldiers who quickly toss down their arm and throw up their hands in surrender, Squad is "obligated" to not just shoot them all in place. (Yes, there are caveats, etc.) But, of course, "accidents happen".

 

[Timerover51]

With nobles, at least so far as those polities that have them, I'd think that there'd be some gentleman's agreement between then that you don't off nobles. Instead, when a noble is captured he is turned in to the capturing side's nobility for a handsome reward that is then repatriated from the other side as a from of ransom payment for his safe return.
I could see Knights maybe being an exception to this.

For non-nobility in the military it would amount to an incentive to capture nobles alive for the reward money while the nobility would encourage it to save their skins in a war from deprivation in a POW camp or being "accidently" killed when captured.

So basically, the way war was waged during the Hundred Years War between England and France, with Burgundy playing both sides. Those nobles who had ransom were taken prisoner, those without took their chances, and if the Welsh spearmen and bowmen got there first, knocked on the head with a hammer. The Swiss were not liked for their habit of not taking prisoners.

 

[Timerover51]

The classic example, even today, is Squad A kicks in the door to find a room full of enemy soldiers who quickly toss down their arm and throw up their hands in surrender, Squad is "obligated" to not just shoot them all in place. (Yes, there are caveats, etc.) But, of course, "accidents happen".

Standard procedure there is, kick the door open, follow with several grenades, then spray anyone who is still moving.