Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Thank you for your service in insuring the safety of the Great Lakes.
Galleys, which design system had them?
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The U.S. Army assumes that 3.98 cubic feet of freezer and refrigerated space per man per month. One cubic meter converts into 35.314667 cubic feet, so each cubic meter of freezer and refrigerated space would be more than adequate for 8 men per month. (The actual figure is 8.79 men per month.) The Army Field Ration A, using both perishable and non-perishable foods, weighs 6 pounds per man, including packaging, and occupies 0.183 cubic feet of space. This would comprise both freezer, refrigerated, and shelf storage space. A cubic foot of combined space would hold food for 5 men for one day, with some space left over. You can do the math for whatever sized crew that you want.
If you go with non-perishable food, requiring no freezer or refrigerated space, equivalent to the Army Operational Ration B, when each ration weighs 6 pounds, included packaging, and occupies 0.1269 cubic feet of space. That means that one cubic foot of rations would weigh 42 pounds and supply food for 7 men per day. (The actual figure is 7.88.) Again, figure how much ration space you would need for your desired crew and for how long.
By ration, I mean that amount of food required to feed one man for one day. Now, the Army rations are figured on about a 4,000 calorie a day basis, so the food allowance for a ship's crew would be quite generous. For sedentary individuals and women, the food requirements should be less than the 4,000 calories.
For a rule-of-thumb calculation, one long ton, 2240 pounds, of rations will occupy 94 cubic feet of cargo space. Based on that, one Traveller dTon of space will hold 5 tons of rations. Assuming one man eating 6 pounds of rations per day, the man would eat 2190 pounds of food per year. Five tons of rations will feed 5 men for a year, assuming about 4000 calories per ration. Again, sedentary personnel are apt to eat less than 4000 calories per day, so that food allowance is quite generous.
All the data cited is taken from U.S. Army Field and Technical Manuals, which as a Quartermaster Officer, I would be using them for planning purposes. Note, these are not C rations or MRE, but meals similar to that which you would get in an Army mess hall or naval vessel. The calculations for Meals, Combat Individual or Meals Ready to Eat are completely different.
Nightwind1
SOC-12
SEMPER PARATUS
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
The way I work it is one square of deck space on a ship holds decent to good food for 2 persons for a month. For each 4 squares you add two persons due to efficiency by volume. Thus, for 4 squares of deck space you get good to great meals for a month for 10 people (assumes some additional space here and there like in the galley itself). For "military" grade food you halve the space. This gives you MRE+ meals for a month.
If you lack a steward or someone with a skill in something related to logistics, you should add 50% to the space due to poor arrangement of the storage and sloppy selection of foodstuffs.
If you lack a steward or someone with a skill in something related to logistics, you should add 50% to the space due to poor arrangement of the storage and sloppy selection of foodstuffs.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am glad that I can be of help.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am not quite sure what you mean by "military grade" food. That which is served in Army mess halls is comparable to what you would find at a buffet such as Golden Corral in terms of quality. Government specifications for food purchasing are quite strict. As for MREs or Meal, Combat, Individual, or MCIs, they are intended as meals to be eaten in the field, hopefully for only a matter of a few days. Their cubic measurements are entirely different.
MREs in a case weigh 16 pounds, with 12 meals in each case, with a cubic volume per case of o.93 cubic feet. A Traveller dTon of approximate 500 cubic feet could therefore hold 500 cases of MREs, weighing 8,000 pounds, and capable of feeding a crew of 12 persons for 500 days. Note, water is required for the MREs, and a major complaint is that they are bland, in order to be acceptable by the largest number of personnel. The average calorie content per meal is 1215, so supplying about 3645 calories per person per day for 3 meals. One 3 ounce bottle of Tabasco sauce is recommended for every 3 meals.
The MCI, which I was eating when I was in the field ( and which I think tastes better than the MRE), weighs 26 pounds per case of 12 meals, with a cubic volume of 0.80 cubic feet. A Traveller dTon of approximately 500 cubic feet could therefore hold 600 case of MCIs, weighing about 15,600 pounds, and capable of feeding a crew of 12 persons for 600 days. Water would be needed for the instant coffee included in the meals. Three meals would supply about 3600 calories per day. Note: I was regarded as a bit strange because I liked the fruit cake included in the MCI.
Neither ration is exactly cheap, as the MCI cost $23.71 per case of 12 meals in 1 April 1981. The MRE cost $48.44 per case of 12 menus in 1 July 1982, more than twice as much. A major problem of both rations is monotony, which the military is still not able to avoid. They do have a long shelf life though. They are a bit more varied than the World War 2 C Ration, which only had 3 different choices. There is on record of a unit in New Guinea in 1943 that had corned beef hash to eat for 60 days. That was one very unhappy, and also sick, unit.
Those are 12 meals per case, not 12 person days of meals. Assuming you aren't proposing feeding the crew just one meal a day (
), but the more normal three meals a day that would be 1 dTon feeding a crew of 4 persons for 500 days (MRE) or 600 days (MCI).
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I apologize for my math errors. You are correct, although for a sedentary crew, 2 meals per day might be adequate.Those are 12 meals per case, not 12 person days of meals. Assuming you aren't proposing feeding the crew just one meal a day (
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
"Military grade" means in my usage, stuff that keeps for a long time. It doesn't mean necessarily MRE's but rather dry food, canned food, and other like items that will last on a shelf for months or even years at a time. If you are running a scout, freighter, or military ship this sort of food is acceptable for use at all times. If one the other hand, you are regularly carrying passengers serving them stuff out of a can or box may not fly very well with them. Or, you could have a steward in the crew that can serve better and knows how and what to get fresh at each stop for a good price.
As for amount, I'd say for a relatively sedentary crew, 2000 calories are plenty a day. In any case, while I like to add detail like this, I try to avoid complexity on the issue at the same time.
My experience with NZ Army food in the late-80s and early-90s was that it was pretty good, but definitely mass-produced. The exception was the meat - the tight budgets of the time were really clear there, with the cuts being cheaper ones and not off best-grade animals. I think the choice of things like chops rather than cooking stews and pies made that more obvious, too.
What I saw 10-15 years ago in my father's pig-food bin (he had a deal with someone who removed the kitchen waste from the local army base of fresh food waste in exchange for pork) suggested that the quality was about the same, but with better meat dishes, and more variety than we had back then.
Fresh field food was about the same, but with less choice. Ration packs back then were variable - mostly tinned food, some of it commercial tins (and thus quite good), some that was basically tinned dog food. These days they're apparently much like US MREs, though with different meals and extras.
That's a lot of sauce.
As I understand it, the C-rations were never intended for long-term use, but ended up being used as the only issue ration far too much.
I mean, you do you, but there's no reason for that.
The days of barrels of hard tack are long past. Provisioning 3 years of tinned kippers. While there is absolutely a need for long term, shelf stable food stuffs, and there's reason to buy, catalog them, and store them. There's very little reason to actually EAT them. They're all for exigent circumstances. Disaster relief, things like that.
MREs are the way they are because they're carried by soldiers in the field in combat. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I bet most of the soldiers in the Middle East working out of the urban firebases, weren't carrying MREs. They got fed before they went out, they got fed when they came back (hot, freshly prepared meals). If they're packing anything its water, more bullets, bandaids, and Power Bars.
Some of the longer patrols in Afghanistan, perhaps. But even routinely, I don't believe that was the case.
As they say, the best food in the military is on the Submarines -- and they're stuck under water for months at a time. No MREs down there in that black hole.
Technically, you can vacuum pack and irradiate steak and it will store for years. No bacteria means no decay or refrigeration needed. People are just so “anti-nuke” that the product was rejected for political reasons. However, I saw a 5 year old steak stored on a shelf in the 1970’s … so it was a technological reality in the late 1970’s. [My father made the plastic for the company that made the steaks.]
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
We really don't know what the case would be. It is very possible that a money pinching Imperium (or other government entity) along with expectations among crew, could result in that if only that the food was a bit better in terms of not having weevils and such. We expect your ship to reprovision once a year to save money...
I know from the times I was with a unit that went to the field MRE's were preferable to "tray pack" food served by the unit's cooks.
Submarine food varies by where you are in the patrol. The longer you're out, the worse and more repetitive it gets.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Ha
Attached is a history of U.S. Army Operational Rations through the end of World War 2. I cannot post some of my other rations material due to the limits on size of uploads.
You can also download here a manual on cooking in the European Theater of Operations in World War 2, describing the various changes to the standard field ration, the composition of the operational rations, along with recipes to use the standard field ration. https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p4013coll8/id/4329/rec/10
Having had two brothers that have served on U.S. Navy subs, one on a ballistic missile sub and one on a nuclear attack sub, neither of them complained about the food. My oldest brother, the one on a ballistic missile boat, did get in trouble when he, over a period of a couple of days, ate an entire gallon of Maraschino Cherries. Have you served on a U.S. nuclear submarine?
Attached is a history of U.S. Army Operational Rations through the end of World War 2. I cannot post some of my other rations material due to the limits on size of uploads.
You can also download here a manual on cooking in the European Theater of Operations in World War 2, describing the various changes to the standard field ration, the composition of the operational rations, along with recipes to use the standard field ration. https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p4013coll8/id/4329/rec/10
Badenov
SOC-13
I think the summation of this thread is that shipboard food can be pretty decent if you're willing to spend a bit of cash. A more specific how good vs how expensive is an IMTU question, as the issue is not specifically mentioned.
However I calculate....
'Each occupied stateroom on a starship involves an overhead cost of Cr2000 per trip (two weeks) made.' (Book 2 '80, p 7) Double-occupied staterooms incur double the cost. Obviously this is air as well as food and drink as well as all sorts of consumables, but it's a pretty good chunk of change.
This is about twice the cost of living for Soc 8 (ref MgT1, don't know where to find it in CT) or between Soc 10 and 12 (much closer to 12). If you presume that you're onloading overpriced stores for shipboard use, you might consider your passengers eating at about Soc 8, which isn't awful by any means. If you're loading pretty much normal stores, which seems reasonable given the discussion, then you're eating very well, and presumably close to where your passengers are used to eating. Soc 10 requires Cr2500/mo or Cr1250/2wks, so that would leave Cr750 per 2 weeks for non-food consumables. So it's not hard to say shipboard living feeds you like Soc 10.
Bonus: I'm now imagining a Black Globe Generator the size of a walk-in freezer that preserves food far better than refrigeration ever could. This pairs well with the 3D Food Printers mentioned previously for an idea of a TL15 kitchen.
However I calculate....
'Each occupied stateroom on a starship involves an overhead cost of Cr2000 per trip (two weeks) made.' (Book 2 '80, p 7) Double-occupied staterooms incur double the cost. Obviously this is air as well as food and drink as well as all sorts of consumables, but it's a pretty good chunk of change.
This is about twice the cost of living for Soc 8 (ref MgT1, don't know where to find it in CT) or between Soc 10 and 12 (much closer to 12). If you presume that you're onloading overpriced stores for shipboard use, you might consider your passengers eating at about Soc 8, which isn't awful by any means. If you're loading pretty much normal stores, which seems reasonable given the discussion, then you're eating very well, and presumably close to where your passengers are used to eating. Soc 10 requires Cr2500/mo or Cr1250/2wks, so that would leave Cr750 per 2 weeks for non-food consumables. So it's not hard to say shipboard living feeds you like Soc 10.
Bonus: I'm now imagining a Black Globe Generator the size of a walk-in freezer that preserves food far better than refrigeration ever could. This pairs well with the 3D Food Printers mentioned previously for an idea of a TL15 kitchen.
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I think you're missing the point, well, at least my point.
The point is that food is important. That people will PAY for "good food". It's the last place to "save money". Food is a priority. Captains like to eat. (I don't know about you, but anecdotally, I like food. If you'd like a second opinion, I can present my cat and her point of view.) Processed, shelf stabilized foods are expensive. It's cheaper to use fresh and cook it. Bad cooks don't stay that way for long, because they don't like the results, and they have to eat it too. Children can scramble eggs.
If you have a Free Trader with 80 tons of cargo space and you're eating cheese crackers all week, its' worth re-purposing one of those dTons for a freezer, fridge, and a stove.
There are certainly issues with fresh food for long durations. Most fruits don't do well a week out. But frozen foods are quite palatable, and freezing is EASY on a starship. "Frank, go outside and grab that pack of frozen corn taped to the hull".
Specifically to Traveller, trips are measured, and portioned, into week long events. Submarines are an outlier, being stuck on the bottom for months on end. Our surface Navy is replenished often. The US Military has a long tail, food is an important aspect of it. It's not the 1850s with ships provisioned for 3 year journeys (and even they, given the opportunity, hunted and fished to get fresh meat).
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I was a surface nuke. Carriers. But I also know quite a few submariners as a result of being in the nuke community. My only submarine experience was going on a boomer at Bremerton to take pictures of the dry food storage lockers as I was redesigning (in part) them--I can't get into details on their design as it's a "need know" (but not classified) thing--and needed to know more about several parts of those that seemingly no longer existed anywhere. Weirdly, the lockers are not a classified item but the film I used, and the resulting pictures somehow were. Very odd. When I wanted to look at them back at my command, I'd get the Command Master Chief to get them out of his safe and I'd sit in a locked office doing what I had to do. But I could take the resulting notes, drawings, etc., with me no problem... Weird huh?
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
And, Cr2000 difference in high passage tickets. That’s 10000 dollars in conversion today for a week in the space can.
Not getting celebrity entertainment show or an onboard pool or a holodeck. That leaves food.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Then if you use the system I posted, it has a modifier for the cost of food locally, as well as a rough guide to selection, you can use. Going to a food poor planet means the food costs way more and there is a limited selection available. That translates into You're eating greasy, tasteless, and expensive, protein cubes for the next three weeks...
