Fuel Purification Plant

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
If refined fuel were priced sensibly (in recognition of cheap purification costs) it should be ~150/ton. Now it is not profitable to take up cargo space for a purifier.

Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
If refined fuel were priced sensibly (in recognition of cheap purification costs) it should be ~150/ton. Now it is not profitable to take up cargo space for a purifier.

Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

Nope. Book 5 only states, as you note, that small craft can use unrefined without penalty (and I'm not saying this makes sense... ) but nowhere does it contradict Book 2 in that all starship drives are subject to malfunction when running unrefined fuel. That's in the "Starship Malfunctions" heading of B2 which itself seems to imply that even in B2 small craft may run with unrefined fuel.

The implication is (and the low fuel requirements for small craft in B2 further support this) that small craft drives are different from starship drives, even though the design rules (in B5) treat them identically.

Even if allowed to use separate tanks the cost savings is insignificant, even more so once using B5 powerplants.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

Nope. Book 5 only states, as you note, that small craft can use unrefined without penalty (and I'm not saying this makes sense... ) but nowhere does it contradict Book 2 in that all starship drives are subject to malfunction when running unrefined fuel. That's in the "Starship Malfunctions" heading of B2 which itself seems to imply that even in B2 small craft may run with unrefined fuel.

The implication is (and the low fuel requirements for small craft in B2 further support this) that small craft drives are different from starship drives, even though the design rules (in B5) treat them identically.

Even if allowed to use separate tanks the cost savings is insignificant, even more so once using B5 powerplants.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The implication is (and the low fuel requirements for small craft in B2 further support this) that small craft drives are different from starship drives, even though the design rules (in B5) treat them identically.

There's empirical evidence for this: small craft drives are integrated units that operate without the need for computer control, whereas big craft drives are non-functional unless they have computer control (and the big craft drives can usually withstand a little more damage, as well).

FWIW, I figure that the mysterious-but-pleasant "acceleration compensation" is only available from the big craft's computer-operated drives (the grav field that moves the ship may be similar to a jump field in that it won't form around anything less that 100 dtons in size), which is why small craft are all about the "acceleration couches" (which might even have little grav-plate-style generators in them to help cushion the G-loads upon the occupant).

So, I've always seen small craft drives as a fundamentally different bit of practical engineering compared to the big craft versions -- they're more akin to air/rafts and Gcarriers and speeders than starships.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The implication is (and the low fuel requirements for small craft in B2 further support this) that small craft drives are different from starship drives, even though the design rules (in B5) treat them identically.

There's empirical evidence for this: small craft drives are integrated units that operate without the need for computer control, whereas big craft drives are non-functional unless they have computer control (and the big craft drives can usually withstand a little more damage, as well).

FWIW, I figure that the mysterious-but-pleasant "acceleration compensation" is only available from the big craft's computer-operated drives (the grav field that moves the ship may be similar to a jump field in that it won't form around anything less that 100 dtons in size), which is why small craft are all about the "acceleration couches" (which might even have little grav-plate-style generators in them to help cushion the G-loads upon the occupant).

So, I've always seen small craft drives as a fundamentally different bit of practical engineering compared to the big craft versions -- they're more akin to air/rafts and Gcarriers and speeders than starships.

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Are you disputing the Escape Velocity rule?

I went back and checked my archives, and was amused to discover that other that a few specially craft intended for deep-space-only work, I haven't designed a hull (streamlined or otherwise) with less than 2Gs of drive in over 15 years.

Wonder why...

Set your 1G vessel on a 1G world and use that formula to lift off. Tell me how far you get using that vector math expression.

In Atmo 4+, given a modestly-long runway, a streamlined, wheeled (or waterborne) grav-propelled ship can actually fly out -- but again, it may take a little while. As you climb higher and lose lift, you'll also lose drag, and should be able to continue accelerating in a very gentle climb until you reach escape V in hard vacc.

However, in Atmo 3-, you need a very, very, very long runway and tyres that can handle a 10km/s ground speed -- which are an unlikely engineering feat...

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Are you disputing the Escape Velocity rule?

I went back and checked my archives, and was amused to discover that other that a few specially craft intended for deep-space-only work, I haven't designed a hull (streamlined or otherwise) with less than 2Gs of drive in over 15 years.

Wonder why...

Set your 1G vessel on a 1G world and use that formula to lift off. Tell me how far you get using that vector math expression.

In Atmo 4+, given a modestly-long runway, a streamlined, wheeled (or waterborne) grav-propelled ship can actually fly out -- but again, it may take a little while. As you climb higher and lose lift, you'll also lose drag, and should be able to continue accelerating in a very gentle climb until you reach escape V in hard vacc.

However, in Atmo 3-, you need a very, very, very long runway and tyres that can handle a 10km/s ground speed -- which are an unlikely engineering feat...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

Nope. Book 5 only states, as you note, that small craft can use unrefined without penalty (and I'm not saying this makes sense... ) but nowhere does it contradict Book 2 in that all starship drives are subject to malfunction when running unrefined fuel.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I think we're talking about the same thing.

Check out Book 5, pg. 27. It supports what I said above: "Unrefined fuel, when used in starship drives and powerplants, can result in equipment malfunctions and misjumps. This can be avoided with the use of a fuel purification plant which allows refining of the raw gas before it is used in the drives."

So, Book 2 and Book 5 say the same thing: That unrefined fuel may result in malfunction or misjump. Refined fuel is safe.

You may be objecting to the fact that I included the PP in the above statement, saying it was OK to run the PP on unrefined fuel.

I said this for a couple of reasons:

1 - The penalty for unrefined fuel only kicks in when the Jump Drive is used. There is no penalty if the ship never leaves N-Space, running on M-Drives the whole time. Thus, unrefined fuel must be OK for the M-Drive.

2 - All small craft can use unrefined fuel at no penalty (according to both Book 5 and Book 2). Small Craft have M-Drives and PowerPlants. Unrefined fuel is problem free. So, it's the Jump Drive that requires specific refined fuel.

Which is why I made my statement above.

That's in the "Starship Malfunctions" heading of B2 which itself seems to imply that even in B2 small craft may run with unrefined fuel.

Book 2 does more than implicate it. It says it straight out. In the Ship Design and Construction chapter, under SMALL CRAFT: "All can operate with unrefined fuel..."

Book 5 mirrors this. Pg. 34, under SMALL CRAFT: "The drives do not require fuel purification plants to allow use of the unrefined fuel."

Conclusion: Unrefined fuel is fine for Small Craft, Spaceships, and Starships when only the M-Drive is used.

Refined fuel is needed if the jump drive is to be used without penalty, though.

(It's what I said above.)

Even if allowed to use separate tanks the cost savings is insignificant, even more so once using B5 powerplants.

A single tank probably already includes baffles and various compartments. It's probably not just one big tank. It probably has "sections", and since 10 tons of fuel is leaked whenever a fuel tank hit occurs in Book 2, my guess is that standard design allow for "sections" of the tank, that can be sealed off from the rest of the tank, are probably standardized in 10 dton compartments.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Note that refined fuel is only required for a vessel's jump drive. The M-Drive and powerplant run fine on unrefined fuel without penalty.

Which is why small craft run on unrefined fuel with no penalty.

PC starship captains could (assuming the ship's fuel tank can be parsed off with baffles--or that there are separate tanks for the M-Drive/PP and J-Drive respectively) buy only refined fuel for their J-Drives. At 500Cr a ton, the ship can save some money on the fuel it buys for the M-Drive and PP.

Nope. Book 5 only states, as you note, that small craft can use unrefined without penalty (and I'm not saying this makes sense... ) but nowhere does it contradict Book 2 in that all starship drives are subject to malfunction when running unrefined fuel.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I think we're talking about the same thing.

Check out Book 5, pg. 27. It supports what I said above: "Unrefined fuel, when used in starship drives and powerplants, can result in equipment malfunctions and misjumps. This can be avoided with the use of a fuel purification plant which allows refining of the raw gas before it is used in the drives."

So, Book 2 and Book 5 say the same thing: That unrefined fuel may result in malfunction or misjump. Refined fuel is safe.

You may be objecting to the fact that I included the PP in the above statement, saying it was OK to run the PP on unrefined fuel.

I said this for a couple of reasons:

1 - The penalty for unrefined fuel only kicks in when the Jump Drive is used. There is no penalty if the ship never leaves N-Space, running on M-Drives the whole time. Thus, unrefined fuel must be OK for the M-Drive.

2 - All small craft can use unrefined fuel at no penalty (according to both Book 5 and Book 2). Small Craft have M-Drives and PowerPlants. Unrefined fuel is problem free. So, it's the Jump Drive that requires specific refined fuel.

Which is why I made my statement above.

That's in the "Starship Malfunctions" heading of B2 which itself seems to imply that even in B2 small craft may run with unrefined fuel.

Book 2 does more than implicate it. It says it straight out. In the Ship Design and Construction chapter, under SMALL CRAFT: "All can operate with unrefined fuel..."

Book 5 mirrors this. Pg. 34, under SMALL CRAFT: "The drives do not require fuel purification plants to allow use of the unrefined fuel."

Conclusion: Unrefined fuel is fine for Small Craft, Spaceships, and Starships when only the M-Drive is used.

Refined fuel is needed if the jump drive is to be used without penalty, though.

(It's what I said above.)

Even if allowed to use separate tanks the cost savings is insignificant, even more so once using B5 powerplants.

A single tank probably already includes baffles and various compartments. It's probably not just one big tank. It probably has "sections", and since 10 tons of fuel is leaked whenever a fuel tank hit occurs in Book 2, my guess is that standard design allow for "sections" of the tank, that can be sealed off from the rest of the tank, are probably standardized in 10 dton compartments.

 

[far-trader]

No no no

We agree, yes, until you start saying that starships (and imo large craft) can run on unrefined with no worries except for misjumps. You typed it yourself above, "malfunctions" still happen, to the powerplant and maneuver drive (as well as the jump drive quite outside misjumps), if operated with unrefined fuel. I quote:

STARSHIP MALFUNCTIONS

As with any mechanical device, a starship can malfunction. The two major malfunctions are drive failure and misjump. The primary influencing factors are unrefined fuel and lack of maintenance.

Drive Failure: Each week, throw 13+ for drive failure; apply the following DMs: +1 if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so), +1 per engineer missing from the crew list, +1 per week past annual maintenance overhaul date.

If a malfunction occurs, then throw 7+ for each drive in use (jump, maneuver, power plant) to determine which actually fail, (if any). Failed drives cease operations completely; maneuver drives will no longer thrust, jump drives will fail and indicate that they cannot support jump; power plants stop delivering power.

This is why I say the drives for small craft must be different from the ones for starships (and large craft), even if designed using the same rules.


I thought B2 might have spelled it out for small craft but couldn't recall for sure. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[far-trader]

No no no

We agree, yes, until you start saying that starships (and imo large craft) can run on unrefined with no worries except for misjumps. You typed it yourself above, "malfunctions" still happen, to the powerplant and maneuver drive (as well as the jump drive quite outside misjumps), if operated with unrefined fuel. I quote:

STARSHIP MALFUNCTIONS

As with any mechanical device, a starship can malfunction. The two major malfunctions are drive failure and misjump. The primary influencing factors are unrefined fuel and lack of maintenance.

Drive Failure: Each week, throw 13+ for drive failure; apply the following DMs: +1 if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so), +1 per engineer missing from the crew list, +1 per week past annual maintenance overhaul date.

If a malfunction occurs, then throw 7+ for each drive in use (jump, maneuver, power plant) to determine which actually fail, (if any). Failed drives cease operations completely; maneuver drives will no longer thrust, jump drives will fail and indicate that they cannot support jump; power plants stop delivering power.

This is why I say the drives for small craft must be different from the ones for starships (and large craft), even if designed using the same rules.


I thought B2 might have spelled it out for small craft but couldn't recall for sure. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
(the grav field that moves the ship may be similar to a jump field in that it won't form around anything less that 100 dtons in size)

To my knowledge, there is no reference in CT to how the M-Drive works. But, I've always like DGP's take on them: Thruster Plates.

T-Plates used in maneuver drives are an outgrowth of gravitic technology. They are reactionless in that nothing "burns" in order for them to produce thrust. They're fed simply with power from the ship's powerplant.

When the T-Plate is juiced, it will emit particles. The particles are all charged to a like state--they may be all postive particles, or they may all be negative particles.

In effect, what happens is that the T-Plate emits these particles, and the particle push off each other becuase they are like charged. This is not unlike two positive poles of a magnet being brought together, having the effect akin of a swimmer, in the pool, pushing off the edge.

T-Plates glow blue due to the ionization effect of when the charge of some of the particles are changed (and the amount of this process is used as a microscopic "rudder" in order to direct thrust). And, the T-Plates generate a lot of heat during this process--so much so that typically the T-Plates are mounted on the aft end of a ship. But, there's no reason why the T-Plates couldn't be mounted internally as long as the heat could be dealt with (akin to to having a rocket engine "inside" your spacecraft, still producing thrust, but also generating enormous heat).

T-Plates do have some "direction" guiding ability in the aforementioned "rudder" effect, but this aspect of T-Plates is not efficient. Their primary thrust is 90 degress from the center of the plate. As the thrust is angled fro that point, thrust drops off rapidly.

So, in oder to maneuver the ship, a gyroscope is used, mounted in the exact mass-center of the ship (the ship's pivot point for turning). The sphereical gyroscope rotates at incredible speeds. Encasing the scope is a shell of grav modules, focused on the scope, pressing down on the scope equally form all directions.

The scope provides a "place to push off from". With manipulation of the grav shell around the scope, a ship will pivot in any direction, just like it was a camera tripod floating on a perfect angle head. Once orientation is achieve, power is sent to the T-Plates to push the ship in a specific direction.

The usual gas or rocket powered orientation jets located over a ships hull provide a backup system should the ship's gyro fail.

Pretty cool description of the "mechanics" of the M-Drive, huh? I've always loved DGP's work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
(the grav field that moves the ship may be similar to a jump field in that it won't form around anything less that 100 dtons in size)

To my knowledge, there is no reference in CT to how the M-Drive works. But, I've always like DGP's take on them: Thruster Plates.

T-Plates used in maneuver drives are an outgrowth of gravitic technology. They are reactionless in that nothing "burns" in order for them to produce thrust. They're fed simply with power from the ship's powerplant.

When the T-Plate is juiced, it will emit particles. The particles are all charged to a like state--they may be all postive particles, or they may all be negative particles.

In effect, what happens is that the T-Plate emits these particles, and the particle push off each other becuase they are like charged. This is not unlike two positive poles of a magnet being brought together, having the effect akin of a swimmer, in the pool, pushing off the edge.

T-Plates glow blue due to the ionization effect of when the charge of some of the particles are changed (and the amount of this process is used as a microscopic "rudder" in order to direct thrust). And, the T-Plates generate a lot of heat during this process--so much so that typically the T-Plates are mounted on the aft end of a ship. But, there's no reason why the T-Plates couldn't be mounted internally as long as the heat could be dealt with (akin to to having a rocket engine "inside" your spacecraft, still producing thrust, but also generating enormous heat).

T-Plates do have some "direction" guiding ability in the aforementioned "rudder" effect, but this aspect of T-Plates is not efficient. Their primary thrust is 90 degress from the center of the plate. As the thrust is angled fro that point, thrust drops off rapidly.

So, in oder to maneuver the ship, a gyroscope is used, mounted in the exact mass-center of the ship (the ship's pivot point for turning). The sphereical gyroscope rotates at incredible speeds. Encasing the scope is a shell of grav modules, focused on the scope, pressing down on the scope equally form all directions.

The scope provides a "place to push off from". With manipulation of the grav shell around the scope, a ship will pivot in any direction, just like it was a camera tripod floating on a perfect angle head. Once orientation is achieve, power is sent to the T-Plates to push the ship in a specific direction.

The usual gas or rocket powered orientation jets located over a ships hull provide a backup system should the ship's gyro fail.

Pretty cool description of the "mechanics" of the M-Drive, huh? I've always loved DGP's work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
If a malfunction occurs, then throw 7+ for each drive in use (jump, maneuver, power plant) to determine which actually fail, (if any).

I stand corrected.

You are correct. I thought there was no penalty for using the M-Drive on a starship with unrefined fuel. Obvisoulsy, there is.

So, a starship cannot used unrefined fuel without gummin' up the works, period.

Small Craft can use unrefined fuel at no penalty.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
If a malfunction occurs, then throw 7+ for each drive in use (jump, maneuver, power plant) to determine which actually fail, (if any).

I stand corrected.

You are correct. I thought there was no penalty for using the M-Drive on a starship with unrefined fuel. Obvisoulsy, there is.

So, a starship cannot used unrefined fuel without gummin' up the works, period.

Small Craft can use unrefined fuel at no penalty.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
...Pretty cool description of the "mechanics" of the M-Drive, huh? I've always loved DGP's work.

Yep, but know what always bugged me about that particular description the most?

While I didn't mind the bulk of it, they had to go and add that gyroscope thingy

Oh yeah, right in the middle of the mass of the ship. In a design system that ignores mass. In a ship that can't possibly balance the cargo and fuel mass in the same place at any time. And with deckplans that don't show a gyroscope anywhere on the ship, never mind center of some imagined mass or not.

Give me a break!

Cool? Maybe. Thought out? Not very well imo.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
...Pretty cool description of the "mechanics" of the M-Drive, huh? I've always loved DGP's work.

Yep, but know what always bugged me about that particular description the most?

While I didn't mind the bulk of it, they had to go and add that gyroscope thingy

Oh yeah, right in the middle of the mass of the ship. In a design system that ignores mass. In a ship that can't possibly balance the cargo and fuel mass in the same place at any time. And with deckplans that don't show a gyroscope anywhere on the ship, never mind center of some imagined mass or not.

Give me a break!

Cool? Maybe. Thought out? Not very well imo.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
I went back and checked my archives, and was amused to discover that other that a few specially craft intended for deep-space-only work, I haven't designed a hull (streamlined or otherwise) with less than 2Gs of drive in over 15 years.

Wonder why...

Because you used Book 5 design and all hulls were less than 100 tons?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by boomslang:
I went back and checked my archives, and was amused to discover that other that a few specially craft intended for deep-space-only work, I haven't designed a hull (streamlined or otherwise) with less than 2Gs of drive in over 15 years.

Wonder why...

Because you used Book 5 design and all hulls were less than 100 tons?