FTL Drives other than Jump Drive

[far-trader]

Well I didn't feel the need, I'd only complain to a mod if I thought it serious enough, this wasn't, he was just being rude....

And you thought the smart thing, the mature thing, to do was be rude right back?

Yet even though he was blatantly rude nothing was said or done to him?, how is this fair?

Are you blind or purposefully trying to get me riled up? I already noted for you once that BTL was likewise chastised. Look again at the post where I warned you both, try to read all the words this time.

You also don't get to see everything you know? Warnings are issued via PM but again, if you looked you'd see that BTL's post was also flagged. Funny, I don't see him going off on a rant about it though. Make that a continued rant. And other protestations of innocence or whatever. After being warned more than once.

Yes, all of them, thats why they never went anywhere,

No, if they never went anywhere it was because people smartened up. But again, until you dig up some links there's no point debating this. It's just your empty accusations. When you dig up the ones you feel so wronged over then we debate them. Until then it's pointless.

I mean, you are just people correct?

No, I'm a Turing Program. What do you think?

It wasn't, I made no complaint, and I had no issue with the rest of the posts, he posted, just his last post when he attempted to be rude,

So it was an issue for you. And again, the correct action to take would be to report it. Not to respond to it in kind. Get it?

As far as that goes it looked to me like you egged him on into it. Much like you're trying to do to me here. Repeated calls to prove it without you offering your own proofs. And BTL did show his own research. You didn't.

How can you really think you are being fair?

You know what? The more you rant on about it, the more I'm convinced maybe I wasn't fair in this. But you don't want me to be fair, trust me.

And if you where the kind of person to act on bias as a mod would it make sense for me to come to you?

Again with the not reading. I clearly stated that if you didn't think I was unbiased AFTER YOU SHOW SOME CAUSE BY LINKING THE POSTS YOU CLAIM I UNFAIRLY TREATED YOU that you could take it to another mod.

I shouldn't even be debating this with you but I'm trying to educate you on the problem and I'm a softy. I should just be telling you to refresh yourself on the board faqs or giving you a time out/temp ban, specifically:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Arguing with Moderators or Administrators about these rules. This is the absolute fastest way to get a ban here other than spamming.

[/FONT]
But then you've already been warned about that, or did you not read that either.

 

[Sturn]

I sat down at my desk, hit the QuickLinks to see lots of reading to do in "New Posts". I sat back for some enjoyment and opened a few threads....to find them cluttered with bickering and a certain name repeated in more then one of those threads.

Knock it off please.

*Looks around for his Sword of Troll-slaying*. Oops, wrong game. Will a Fusion Gun do the job?

 

[Peter Schutze]

the stupid thing about it all .... you were both right IMHO up until the childish behaviour

Based on current science wormholes dont exist. note: Dont not cant .... NASA and JPL seem to be right in the assertion that no proof has ever been found etc etc etc

and stephen hawking is quite possibly right too or so many theoretical physicists wouldnt be working on string theory etc which seems to be the basis for potential wormholes. there are numerous inconsistencies and exceptions in current "fact" that cant be explained.

nothing can be faster than light yet the fundamental forces eg gravity seems to be instantaneous

 

[far-trader]

Good call Peter, back to the topic... drift... ;-)

I'm trying to recall the discussion but failing at the moment (might have been here on CotI but I'm not sure), and like others I haven't really kept up on physics in the last 20+ years, but I was remarking on the apparent instantaneous nature of gravity and (iirc) was informed that theories about that had changed (again?). I don't suppose somebody here is up on it and capable of explaining it without invoking too much high science and math?

Actually I think there are (were thought to be?) some (theoretical?) particles that are faster than light aren't (weren't) there?

 

[far-trader]

And maybe less drifty, I just watched the episode of New BSG (season 4.5) where we get a peak at the FTL drive of Galactica "spinning up*"

* EDIT: or is it "spooling up" ? or is that another FTL? confused, nothing new there

Always wondered why they called it that, now we know. But there was something very very familiar about the FTL drive the way it was "working". I just can't quite place it*. I want to say one of the HG Wells "Time Machine" movies but I'm not sure. Did anybody else recognize it? And better yet recall from where?

* EDIT: Hang on a tick, is that it, "spooling up"?, is it a loom mechanic I'm recognizing it the Galactica FTL drive?

 

[Blue Ghost]

As the progenitor of this thread, I feel some responsibility, but am glad all have made up.

Awww. Group hug.

Seriously, creating stuff with a scientific basis needs some artistic license. Imagine we're living in 872 BC Athens, and some guy comes up with the "flaming liquid" drive that he says will replace horses, oxen and other draught animals someday. It's all speculative. All he knows is that a derivative of oil will burn briefly, and is an energy source.

Ditto for string theory. As some of the commentators in Brian Greene's "Fabric of the Cosmos" special (not "universe" as I stated earlier) have commented, because string theory is unprovable there's a debate as to whether it's a science or a philosophy. However, to the best of my knowledge, no one's come up with a "string-drive" as far as I know.

Ditto with jump drive, though jump drive trumps the philosophy nomenclature by virtue of being true in Traveller. Yet this should not entirely edge out discussion on other FTL rule mechanics.

This is a science fiction game, and one aimed at allowing the rules to conform to all sorts of norms. It's the beauty of the system.

*EDITED* for clarity.

 

[rancke]

I'm trying to recall the discussion but failing at the moment (might have been here on CotI but I'm not sure), and like others I haven't really kept up on physics in the last 20+ years, but I was remarking on the apparent instantaneous nature of gravity and (iirc) was informed that theories about that had changed (again?). I don't suppose somebody here is up on it and capable of explaining it without invoking too much high science and math?

My dad told me, many years ago, that changes in gravity propagate at the speed of light.

About the wormhole thing: According to Einstein's theories, any mechanism that involves placing information somewhere else at a speed exceeding that of light will cause causality violations. It doesn't matter what the mechanism. The end result (something travelled faster than light) is what does it.

If Hawking has found a way round that, he's found a way to time travel.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

FT: As I understand it, gravity propagates at light speed.

Blue Ghost: Or "evaporate water to power a ship to the heavens". (electrolysis/hydrox)

Hans: Causality is probably why if wormholes can exist, they probably won't be able to transmit unscrambled signals or matter.

Aramis: You're on the wrong thread, mate - this is the wormhole one, there's another about redshift somewhere. Easily done, especially as 'senior moments' accellerate with time.
Edit - it's here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20210

 

[ThunderChilde]

And maybe less drifty, I just watched the episode of New BSG (season 4.5) where we get a peak at the FTL drive of Galactica "spinning up*"

* EDIT: or is it "spooling up" ? or is that another FTL? confused, nothing new there

<snippage>

* EDIT: Hang on a tick, is that it, "spooling up"?, is it a loom mechanic I'm recognizing it the Galactica FTL drive?

Never saw it, but the engines in Firefly were all spinners, like a spindle on a shaft. That might be what you are recollecting

 

[far-trader]

Never saw it, but the engines in Firefly were all spinners, like a spindle on a shaft. That might be what you are recollecting

Yeah that might be it. Have to watch them again sometime

 

[FreeTrav]

Honor Harrington uses a Keyhole drive, at least in the first 5 books. Extend the sails, to transit the warp point. (Keep in mind, Webber was also the line developer for Starfire, and the first five books look very much like relabelled starfire combats; ironically, more so than his starfire novels!)

Actually, in HH, there are two different interstellar drives - the more common is a "conventional" hyperspace drive, in which the ship shifts into a different space/dimension, and then uses the normal-space drive system (the "wedge", in HH) to travel slower-than-light IN HYPERSPACE, but effectively FTL in REALSPACE.

The other, with the Warshawski sails, is a wormhole drive, where transit from one end of the naturally-existing wormhole to the other is essentially instantaneous.

There's actually some additional complications, though:

- The generator for the sails and for the wedge is the same mechanism; it's just a different 'mode'

- In hyperspace, you can encounter 'grav waves' in which using the wedge is dangerous (fatal), but you can shift the wedge to sail mode and enter the wave, to 'make tracks' while in hyper. The wormhole is, for all intents and purposes, a sort of 'super grav wave' that 'protrudes' into normal space.

So, it's difficult to say whether there are two drives (hyper and wormhole, or wedge and sails), three drives (regular hyper, grav wave hyper, and wormhole), or only one drive (the 'nodes' that generate both the wedge and the sails).

 

[Peter Schutze]

So, it's difficult to say whether there are two drives (hyper and wormhole, or wedge and sails), three drives (regular hyper, grav wave hyper, and wormhole), or only one drive (the 'nodes' that generate both the wedge and the sails).

Dont know why you see confusion ... the whole system is explained numerous times in the various books

there is only the one drive. It works as both a drive and effectively shields (reinforced by the "beta" nodes which don't actually provide velocity but can sometimes be used to repair alpha / drive nodes)

in normal space the drive forms a wedge allowing high fractions of C speeds

in hyperspace (which has a grav limit more like 2300AD than classic traveller) you change from wedge to sail by changing the orientation of the wedge from horizontal to vertical (in relation to the hull) so as to catch the graviton waves between stellar+ masses.

hyperspace has several grav bands (waves) with higher 'real' effective speeds .... these are dangerous as they also put more stress on the nodes and i guess you could call it "turbulence". These waves seem to overlap so much that effectively you leave a solar system and catch a wave to anywhere although there is mention of routes that have specific deeper 'bands' and effects eg a turbulent route is referred to in one book

the wormholes are rare, long range, effectively instantaneous links that you still use sails mode to transit. The need to suddenly reconfigure from wedge to sail to enter the wormhole is mentioned nearly every time a ship enters the wormhole because the Manticore one is deep inside the grav limit where sails would normally not work.

 

[Samules]

Going back to an idea on page 1 how about a psion who can move starships? I figure a level 12 psion with 10 ranks in teleportation could be given a supercharged dose of special drug (20,000 cr) and placed in a room designed to absorb ,focus and direct psionic power (100,000cr). The psion could teleport a ship 1000 tons or less a up to 12 parsecs (you could sacrifice a parsec for 100 tons or vice versa). and to tone down this down a bit for balance: if you roll 4+ on a dice throw afterwards the psion would lose 2 points of power permenantly thus making this feat of psionic might impossible.
(PS:the level 12 required for this must be natural, no drugs)

 

[far-trader]

Going back to an idea on page 1 how about a psion who can move starships?

TNE's Fire, Fusion, and Steel (1st ed) had this as an alternate tech. Called the PT (Psionic Transfer) drive. It artificially augmented the Teleportation ability of the neural jacked Psion when plugged into a properly equipped ship. It still requires foreknowledge of destination by the Psion per the standard rules (though at TL16 destination knowledge can be stored in the computer and accessed via neural jack). There are more details (range, difficulty, equipment needed) but that's the general idea. No special ability of the Psion required, and they even routinely use Booster.

 

[Samules]

My version of the psion drive would be available at earlier tech levels since the psion's power would make up for the tech deficiency.

 

[far-trader]

Sorry for the confusion Samuels, the FF&S PT drive starts at TL9 and gets smaller (cheaper etc iirc) as TL increases. If I recall, a talented Psion and a PT drive are not limited to parsecs of travel the way traditional jump drives are. The TL9 PT drive under the right Psion control could travel a few or even several parsecs iirc, more than 6 even, again iirc. I never really dug into it much, didn't fit my notions and the work to make it "work" was more than seemed useful at the time.

It's only the computer ability to mimic human memory and download that to the Psion via neural jack that is limited to TL16 (or it's the neural jack that was TL16?). And that only to get past the Psion needing personal preknowledge of destination.

 

[Samules]

Do you know what that book was called and how i can get it? It sounds pretty cool.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Do you know what that book was called and how i can get it? It sounds pretty cool.

Page 46 of Fire Fusion and Steel (TNE) here:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=129&it=1

or you could wait for the TNE CD Rom from FFE.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Brian Smaller]

>what is the mass of a single h2 atom moving at near c?

Was that an African or European H atom?