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French Empire replaced by British Empire

Mithras

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I wonder what your thoughts might be on this: instead of FRance weathering the Collapse due to its global 'dependancies' I wonder what the future would look like in 2300AD if it had been the British Commonwealth that had weathered the war and subsequent Collapse. To me it seems a bit more likely, plus I'm a Brit (!) and I always fancied the RAF in space ...

Can anyone imagine a 'Commonwealth' rather than a French Empire?
 
Well, sure

A British Commonwealth forming the hegemony is as good as the Third French Empire that was designed by GDW in order to give the 24th century a different look than the Anglo-Saxon dominated world of the 80's. I suspect that it confused many gamers in the US, and you can note that GDW gradually shifted focus to America and Britain in their published sourcebooks and adventures.

One of the things that made 2300 AD stand out in the 80's was that it made the pretty radical step of imagining a future where non-European nations would be players in world politics. The Soviet Union was declining, but no one could imagine that it would break up (and it took GDW a WWIII to do it :smirk:). The notion of Japan Inc had just reached the public. The European Union was at a standstill and was seemingly struggling to find a purpose. Nations in Latin America (Argentina and Brazil), Africa (Azania and UAR) and Asia (Manchuria and Indonesia) being main actors on the world scene was a bit far fetched then.

So having eliminated the US and the USSR in the Twilight War, I suppose it was logical for GDW to look at one of more independent-minded Western nations (since the policies of Charles De Gaulle) with what seemed as an diverging agenda as the foundation of the different world rising from WWIII.

Now, putting France as the cultural, economic and military main power for about two centuries would mean a great deal of differences that did not get fully explored in the previous incarnation of the game. Actually 2320 AD is IMO doing it a bit better.

So replacing France with Britain wouldn't be a mayor loss in the setting, since it is still an unlikely event.
 
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I wonder what your thoughts might be on this: instead of FRance weathering the Collapse due to its global 'dependancies' I wonder what the future would look like in 2300AD if it had been the British Commonwealth that had weathered the war and subsequent Collapse. To me it seems a bit more likely, plus I'm a Brit (!) and I always fancied the RAF in space ...

Can anyone imagine a 'Commonwealth' rather than a French Empire?

Surprisingly, yes ;-)

(Wonders whether you've seen my website).

However, France's position owes more to just surviving the collapse better (indeed the British were quite well off in comparison to most), but using their position to secure access to Oil in the early 21C, then a headstart in the great Tantalum Grab (TM) of the early 22C.

The British were also involved in the great Tantalum Grab, except instead of satelliting Africa etc., they grabbed the tantalum in Antarctica, against opposition from Denmark (SU) and Argentina.

These grabs placed the French and British as major tantalum holders in the mid-late 22C expansions. Japan managed to grab most of Mozambique's tantalum, Bavaria struck a deal with Azania, whilst the US managed to get Spain's tantalum.
 
In some ways, I think British Commonwealth in Space would be the worst thing to happen to 2300.

As Waldemar pointed out, the French thing was basically GDW's attempt to make 2300 different without making it too different from the world of today - they could have just gone in deep and made China or Brazil the #1 power on Earth but I think players of the 1980s (especially American players) would have had an even more difficult time adapting. They also were doing Space: 1889 which definitely had a more Anglophone slant to it.

My main beef with the British Empire in space is that ... well, it's already been done in history. It's certainly not far-fetched given 2300's background and you could probably do it without actually doing too much violence to 2300's universe in reality. It'd certainly make a lot of the colony names less dumb as GDW could probably make believable English unlike their embarrassing names they have for French or German colonies. However, I'd become a little too "well-worn groove" for me - a little too comfortable and too familiar, which isn't the way the future really should be in my opinion.
 
Surprisingly, yes ;-)

(Wonders whether you've seen my website)

No?? Tell me more!

This is an alternate future, for my own game. And it really isn't the British Empire in space, that would be ... horrible! Its the Commonweath of Nations, which is equal, but in the near future organisede and galvanised by UK to get into space and dominate the global economy by martialling the Commonwealth's transport and resources. It becomes the global government. Yes this is a radical departure from 2300 politics, but not from society and technology.

In space a power is borne, colonies founded and the Commonwealth accepts new members, it then has to get tough and becomes a little more integrated and aggressive. Politically it will turn from the Commonwealth of Nations into the proposed (by fringe supporters) the Commonwealth Union, an EU style poltical union.

Its space navy will be a Canadaian/RAF style body called SPACECOM, and the marines or drop troops of the Commonwealth will be The Regiment, organised into Squadrons and Flights, with African, Indian, Australian and Canadian soldiers as common as British ones...
 
In some ways, I think British Commonwealth in Space would be the worst thing to happen to 2300.

As Waldemar pointed out, the French thing was basically GDW's attempt to make 2300 different without making it too different from the world of today - they could have just gone in deep and made China or Brazil the #1 power on Earth but I think players of the 1980s (especially American players) would have had an even more difficult time adapting. They also were doing Space: 1889 which definitely had a more Anglophone slant to it.

Agreed. The thing that caught my attention about 2300AD way back in September 1997 was that it was an alternate history where the French were dominant, and for seemingly plausible reasons, what with well-armed relative neutrality in a global nuclear war being a good idea.

My main beef with the British Empire in space is that ... well, it's already been done in history. It's certainly not far-fetched given 2300's background and you could probably do it without actually doing too much violence to 2300's universe in reality.

It's going on in 2300. Wellon's a Commonwealth nation, and Alicia (on Beowulf) is becoming the same. Australian and Nigerian interests on the American Arm and Canadian (and KPF) interests on the Chinese Arm can be seen as diversions, or that can be seen as examples of the power of networking to take anyone ... anywhere.

Maybe this is happening after the dust settles in the Second Kafer War, at least on the French Arm. New Cornwall is stable and might annex Lubumbashi on Joi, the British Continent on Beta Canum hasn't fared too badly, and Alicia is easily overshadowing French Beowulf, on the world and in the Queen Alice's Star planetary system. Just as Portuguese-colonized Mozambique joined the Commonwealth in our history, so too might the fragments of the German and French communities in the Arm link up with the Commonwealth.
 
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It's going on in 2300. Wellon's a Commonwealth nation, and Alicia (on Beowulf) is becoming the same. Australian and Nigerian interests on the American Arm and Canadian (and KPF) interests on the Chinese Arm can be seen as diversions, or that can be seen as examples of the power of networking to take anyone ... anywhere.

Maybe this is happening after the dust settles in the Second Kafer War, at least on the French Arm. New Cornwall is stable and might annex Lubumbashi on Joi, the British Continent on Beta Canum hasn't fared too badly, and Alicia is easily overshadowing French Beowulf, on the world and in the Queen Alice's Star planetary system. Just as Portuguese-colonized Mozambique joined the Commonwealth in our history, so too might the fragments of the German and French communities in the Arm link up with the Commonwealth.

Agreed, this is a possible development, as the world is described in 2320 AD. The difference is that it is an in world development, based on what happened in the Second Kafer War. These developments could lead to some interesting conflicts that provide the referee with interesting hooks for adventures. You'll have a Commonwealth (sort of) and possibly a good game. I like that.

The main argument was about changing the backstory of the game 2320 AD, with the UK and the other 20th century Commonwealth nations gaining dominance after the Twilight War. Instead of the French Peace we would have Pax Britannica v2.0. It would institute some changes in Earth's geopolitics, adding a bit to the referee's work, especially if you do not assume that the UK acted exactly as France.

While I see this as being possible to do with the setting, and with some merit too, I agree with epicenter00's previous post.
 
After all the bashing of the idea, I have to admit I did once have a crazy offshoot idea for 2300 that would be based around a Commonwealth. However, for those who have dreams of British Empire 2.0, I don't think it'd be that popular - it was something I thought of back in like the late 90s when I saw a program about Indians in the UK and the idea had some bones I never fully fleshed it out -

I had this idea that post Twilight War, France being relatively untouched compared to the rest of Europe would continue to run the "European Union" though it'd be more like the French Union. The mission of this Francophone EU would change from "Keep the Russians out, the Germans down, and the Americans here" to "Rebuild Europe, get the Americans out, and Unite." During the war and its short aftermath, I imagined that separatists in Scotland egged on by some Frankenstein reimagining of the "Aulde Alliance" is egged on by France to split off. At the same time, Eire quietly reaches an understanding with the British troops there and takes Northern Ireland. Wales considers splitting off, but in the end decides to stick with England (without Northern Ireland there is no United Kingdom anymore, and without Scotland there is less of a Great Britain anymore - most people refer to the "rump" of Wales + England simply as "Britain" during this period). Eire and Scotland receive a disproportionate share of EU rebuilding funds with the "Scottish Lobby" working to stifle funds to the England. As a result, Eire and Scotland rebuild reasonably quickly and enjoy many decades of prosperity (and enjoying more than few "small laughs" at how their one-time overlords are so poor, though rarely in polite company).

Meanwhile, the British Commonwealth, with the UK knocked out, Canada having more pressing interests closer to home, and so on, finds itself dominated by the once looked down upon Indians. If France could be relatively untouched by the Twilight War, I reasoned that India could have been as well. The Commonwealth nations around the Indian Ocean (South Africa, India, New Zealand though it doesn't really touch the Indian Ocean is counted here and so on) gain ascendancy and become a greatest, wealthiest power bloc in the Commonwealth. The sole exception is Australia, whose parochial dislike of the non-⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ bloc keeps them from fully benefitting from the Commonwealth (eventually Australia gets over this, but decides to ally closer with America instead). In turn, Britain finds itself the target of a huge amounts of capital investment as the Commonwealth sees the former mother country as a good way to access EU markets.

While the EU has a headstart in many areas, the vigor of Commonwealth nations makes itself felt after a while - while the EU is exploring space, the Commonwealth corners the biotech market. While the EU colonizes other planets a seemingly unassailable headstart, the Commonwealth shores up its lead on biotech and plows its biotech advantage into recycling - various tailored bacteria that can refine the junk in landfills back into usable refined materials, rare metals in particular. With this move, they singlehandedly pull the rug out of under the EU model of colonization - it's much cheaper to recycle what's on Earth than haul it a dozen lightyears down the Arms.

As colonization and exploration falter as their wealth European backers suddenly face divestment from their backers as colonies are simply no longer seen as good investments. Romantic exploration is great and all, but money is what these people want. Some colonies fail, while many more face economic doldrums. That's when the Commonwealth begins to invest in space - buying up a number of EU exploration companies for cheap (in this version of 2300, it's actually this which causes War of German Reunification as confidence in France and French policy erodes as the jobless rate spikes to 15% in the EU at large, compared to 3% in Britain - with EU workers less able to get to Britain due to the EU's "special regulation" put in place decades earlier which now Britain is reluctant to repeal). This triggers a long dormant sense of British pride - Britons leave England, at first by the tens of thousands, but eventually by the hundreds of thousands for the stars. They're joined by other Commonwealth groups that feel a bit marginalized - like white South Africans (though Azania in this 2300 isn't anywhere near as harsh as in official 2300), Canadians, and so on.

The entire set-up created a world where Anglophones built on the frontiers and were building up their futures there. Indians and black South Africans were the corporate heads and investors who loathed to leave Earth and the red soils of South Africa or the holy Ganges but were more than willing to pay money to help the colonists out. It would have created a universe where my players could see familiar white faces out on the Frontiers while a visit to Earth would be suitably "exotic." As two of my players were Scots, I paid special attention to Scotland - Scotland was facing a stormy political crisis - with circumstances leading to worse unemployment, many Scots have taken advantage of a shared language (efforts to stamp out English never really took hold) to go work and join in colonization. Some have gone so far as to suggest taking Britain up on their century old offer to join in a recast "Kingdom of Equals" - the United Kingdom of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.
 
No?? Tell me more!

This is an alternate future, for my own game. And it really isn't the British Empire in space, that would be ... horrible! Its the Commonweath of Nations, which is equal, but in the near future organisede and galvanised by UK to get into space and dominate the global economy by martialling the Commonwealth's transport and resources. It becomes the global government. Yes this is a radical departure from 2300 politics, but not from society and technology.

In space a power is borne, colonies founded and the Commonwealth accepts new members, it then has to get tough and becomes a little more integrated and aggressive. Politically it will turn from the Commonwealth of Nations into the proposed (by fringe supporters) the Commonwealth Union, an EU style poltical union.

Its space navy will be a Canadaian/RAF style body called SPACECOM, and the marines or drop troops of the Commonwealth will be The Regiment, organised into Squadrons and Flights, with African, Indian, Australian and Canadian soldiers as common as British ones...

Rather than my own meager offerings, have a look at www.etranger.org.uk
 
After all the bashing of the idea, I have to admit I did once have a crazy offshoot idea for 2300 that would be based around a Commonwealth. However, for those who have dreams of British Empire 2.0, I don't think it'd be that popular - it was something I thought of back in like the late 90s when I saw a program about Indians in the UK and the idea had some bones I never fully fleshed it out -

<SNIP>

I thinks that is a very good write up. My only canon issue is that I'm pretty sure that India and Pakistan's own nuclear exchange was fairly devastating in its own right. Even the after effect would be worse with massive population displacement and diseases rampant in a pair of nations where the medical infrastructure was shaky at best.

Still some very good ideas which I'm going to swipe for my own pet pet project.
 
I thinks that is a very good write up. My only canon issue is that I'm pretty sure that India and Pakistan's own nuclear exchange was fairly devastating in its own right. Even the after effect would be worse with massive population displacement and diseases rampant in a pair of nations where the medical infrastructure was shaky at best.

Yeah, in that version of 2300, Pakistan and India never have a nuclear war. It's not so much that they stop disliking each other or whatever, it's simply that they decide ignore their hatred. I always found India and Pakistan's nuclear war to be a little optimistically Western in view - like the condescending attitude that if the West wasn't there to restrain them, they'd nuke each other. It's the reasoning that GDW took and there's plenty of evidence that's what would happen, but it's not the only conclusion that can be drawn.

Instead, I imagined that both countries saw what the West was doing itself and sort of took a long, hard look at where things were going for themselves and had a "hey, wait a minute" moment. Their dislike for each other didn't go away immediately, instead, they decided instead to just ignore their hatred and go do something else instead. Based upon my own little "psychohistorical" ideas - things like racism, religious intolerance, and things like this are basically the games of poor, marginalized people -- in particular young men -- who have no sense of purpose in lives flock to such hatemongers where they find a sense of empowerment and belonging. Jobs and prosperity provide a wonderland of purpose (a job) and prosperity provides plenty of opportunities to explore other diversions than throwing stones/bullets/nukes at someone because they're different from you. While life was tough in both countries following the Twilight War, there was a sense that now that the leader pack had effectively nuked themselves out of the race (at least for a while) there's a golden opportunity to fill the vacuum and that's exactly what they did. Eventually even their hatred was sort of forgotten until at some point a young generation was like, "Hating Pakistan is soooo 2100. That's what old people do."

Incidentally, regarding the Scottish situation, I forgot to add that the pro-Union Scots are the subject of a certain amount of death threats and being called traitors and so on by their England-hating brethren. However, it's a very divisive issue because there's liberal Scots who hate England, and wealthy, conservative Scots who have relations and entire branches of the family living happily in England who are like, "Come on over, the water's great!"
 
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I played around with an idea of keeping the Francophone Empire, but moving the center from France to Quebec. In retrospect, I think I should have based it out of Western Africa, with Dakar as the capital.

I think it would be great fun to base an Anglophone Pax Brittannica II out of India. Pakistan and India enjoy a Cold War for awhile, but Pakistan, caught between an unfriendly nuclear-armed Persia and an unfriendly nuclear-armed India, turns it's attentions toward the north, annexing Afghanistan and much of the central Asian part of the former Soviet Union. Over time Pakistan finds itself more in competition with Persia and Egypt for control of Arabia and the rest of the Middle East and less interested in India. India during this period expands to the north and east. India drops any claim on Kashmir, and Free Tibet stickers are joined by Free Burma and Free Thailand stickers on the bumpers of electric cars, all directed at the evil regime in New Delhi.

Now India, at the center of a new Commonwealth including Australasia, New Zealand, Kenya and Azania, finds itself in competition with a resurgent China(Manchuria?), mostly in space.

Now we can replace any embarrassing "French" names from the "French Arm" with possibly less embarrassing Anglo-Hindu names in the Indian Arm or the Anglic Arm.

Hmmm... I might even combine that with my Quebec idea, or better yet, Francophone Africa.
 
Australia

So what is the status of Australia in 2300? I've been having a new look at the rules and source books and nothing is really spelt out. Is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth, is the head of state the King or Queen of Australia or is it now a Republic?

IMTU I will keep it a part of the Commonwealth but with more of a tilt towards the Americans like we see in the post WWII era, but more so.
 
So what is the status of Australia in 2300? I've been having a new look at the rules and source books and nothing is really spelt out. Is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth, is the head of state the King or Queen of Australia or is it now a Republic?

IMTU I will keep it a part of the Commonwealth but with more of a tilt towards the Americans like we see in the post WWII era, but more so.

I got the general feeling from 2300AD materials that Australia was still in the Commonwealth, still had the Monarch of England as their Head of State - but were still closely allied with the US.
 
>Royal Australian Space Navy

The 'Royal' designation is an honor granted by the monarch. Being traditionalists the militaries would probably keep it if they peacefully became a republic.

I assume the RASN would be the direct inheritor of the Royal Australian Navy traditions
 
>Royal Australian Space Navy

The 'Royal' designation is an honor granted by the monarch. Being traditionalists the militaries would probably keep it if they peacefully became a republic.

I assume the RASN would be the direct inheritor of the Royal Australian Navy traditions

Whilst there are precedents for keeping the 'Royal' appellation, e.g. the Royal Dublin Society in the Republic of Ireland, it can also be easily lost even within Constitutional Monarchies - like with the Royal Canadian Air Force and Navy.

My gut feeling if if a monarchy ends then the official agencies of the government will drop any 'Royal' titles - if only to stamp their mark on the new regime.
 
>the government will drop any 'Royal' titles

Ray-sif (RASF), Ra! (Royal Australian Regiment) etc sounds better than alternate acronyms

Australian governments and beurocracies also tend to be traditional .... I fully expect the governors to be referred to as 'royal representatives' for generations after republicanism finally wins (or the monarchy dies out) and they become 'european style' presidents in formal title as well as function.

It's still called 'crown land' here 100 years after 'the crown' gave up any even theoretical claim on anything in Australia with federation rather than government land or commonwealth land. To make it worse they started qualifying it on some signs in the 80's eg this Crown Land is administered by (the Department of Defence/ Queensland department of Energy etc) even though the land itself usually 'belongs' to the Commonwealth Government
 
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More likely the 2300 world will be dominated by China and France as the major players, with the US/UK as secondary along with Brazil, Argentina and Japan. Texas, Mexico, Azania, etc will be tertiary players at best.
 
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