Fleet Production

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
I figured I'd run some ideas past you all and see what your lines of thought might be on this issue.

According to TA7, it suggests that fleet research and development occurs at the various depot systems and that once a ship is debugged (hopefully) it is put into production. After these ships serve in the navy, and they reach a time where they are superceded by better ship designs or perhaps upgraded with better technology, the obsolete ships and their systems are essentially retired.
What is perhaps interesting however is the thought that such technology is not lost as such, but tends to be archived. While we may not be able to retool current factories to produce cars from the 1940's in an exact replicated form, we do have records of how those cars were manufactured and likely even have on record somewhere, the actual design plans for the making of said vehicles - at least for those that were preserved.
This brings me to the next question. If the Imperial Navy hands off its obsolete ships to the Imperial Reserves, might it not also hand over the designs for obsolete ships that are TWO tech levels below their own to any world that desires them for local production? This way, the subsector navies can save perhaps some money in Research and Development, the Imperial Navy can keep cutting edge information out of the hands of the local navies so that they can't sell them to enemies of the Imperium (or have them stolen by spies) as well as permitting the higher tech worlds to sell information as a commidity?

What all do you think? The reason I ask is because some of the older TL 10 designs for world may be newly produced by certain worlds such that functionally, they are NEW ships, but that they are no longer top of the line. This benefits the Imperium in other ways. For example, the Imperium higher tech worlds can produce the replacement parts that lower tech worlds need for repairs of their ships. When repair ships need to repair battle damage, fabrication shops can purpose build replacement "jury rigged" parts built to specs they already have.

 

[aramis]

IMTU, The IN does just that!

But they also hand opff 1 TL obsolete designs too... and TL 10+ designs.

Advantages: Having a debugged set of construction plans. Knowing EXACTLY what is needed. Being able to build several at a time for stock discounts on all copies. Being able to get spares everywhere.

 

[mike wightman]

That's how I handle it as well. All ship blueprints are available to military approved shipyards within the Imperium.

There is still one thing that bugs me about canon ship guide supplements - where are the tenders and battle riders that make up the bulk of regular IN BatRons?

 

[Capt. Blacklight]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

There is still one thing that bugs me about canon ship guide supplements - where are the tenders and battle riders that make up the bulk of regular IN BatRons?

Well, I have two thoughts about this.
A. One this game doesn't handle ships of that scale very well. and there are a few tender's and Riders in TA-7.


B. Most of the time, most players are going to be in places where " A " rider wouldn't be. A battleship Might be in places where it could be alone(well with it's escorts and such).
Mostly you should be running anyway if the Big boys come out to play.

 

[mike wightman]

Some planetary Navies within the Imperium could well outclass standard Imperial designs.

Looking at the ships in FFW again, the Colonial Reserve BatRon B4 5-4-8 is bettered by only the regular Navy BatRon B4 6-2-8 (possibly the B3 8-0-4 as well). A couple of the regular CruRons could also be considered on a par, the C5 5-4-6 and the C6 4-2-8.
I wonder if the Imperium prohibits TL16 Industrial worlds within its borders from producing ships which are more capable than the Imperial Navy's ships?

 

[Theophilus]

Probably Not, the sheer scale of the imperium would make any single TL16 planetary navy irrelevant.

How many ships can a single system build verses the industrial output of 11000 worlds.

Also, just because the imperial navy standard is TL15 doesn't mean TL16 and TL10-14 ships aren't used. Plus Megatraveller had TL17 disentegerators placed on TL13 hulls. So higher tech research vessels, equipment etc is available in the imperium, just not in widespread use.

 

[savage]

But the disimination of TL16 systems could be a problem if they ended up in the wrong hands. It would also give enemies insight into Imperium Tech and design. Certainly bleeding edge TL17 weapons would be tightly controlled from the owning Depot and naval command. Wouldn't most higher tech be used for border enviroments and naval intel?

Anyhow, how broad are imperial ship plans really distributed. Perhaps across Depots (at least imtu)and older plans may endup in regional navies. But other naval ports would be into parts replacement more than remanufacturing of vessels. Of course, some A Navy ports bulding and manufacturing larger vessels (perhaps for the duke) for regional needs would be the acception to the rule.

Savage

 

[Hal]

One reason I mentioned two tech levels lower than cutting edge technology is because - in the case of the Spinward Marches, the Zhodani empire is one tech below the Imperials. A two tech bleed from the Imperium isn't much to worry over unless the TL13 material is more revealing of TL15 techniques than I'm guessing at

 

[shield]

Sigg

Regarding that FFW colonial battle squadron. The same squadron is in Invasion Earth as an Imperial squadron. Given that the imperial fleet at that time is TL14/15 that battle squadron is probably a damn good TL14 squadron. The fact it is now a colonial unit, suggests that the Imperium has sold off some of its old battleships to a colonial navy.

It might also be a early Tl15 design like the famous Korriakak class which is now being retired, given to the IISS and the colonials.

Seems to support the idea of the IN pushing its older ships down into the reserves and then into colonial navies.

cheers
Richard

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks Richard, now I'm going to have to go and sort my Invasion Earth counters to do an analysis of them as well

 

[mike wightman]

Finished.
That 5-4-8 BatRon is the best unit the Imperium has (there's two of them, the 734th and 776th).
BatRons 911 and 945 are 4-4-6.
The most common BatRon is 4-4-4 (620, 622, 624, 625, 683, 688), which is exactly the same as the most common Regular Navy BatRon in FFW.
BR415 is 3-4-6
BR327 and BR329 are 3-3-6, a unit which pops up in the Colonial Reserves in FFW.
Finally BR251 is 2-3-5.

Conclusion, I think you're right

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Theophilus:
Probably Not, the sheer scale of the imperium would make any single TL16 planetary navy irrelevant.

How many ships can a single system build verses the industrial output of 11000 worlds.

Also, just because the imperial navy standard is TL15 doesn't mean TL16 and TL10-14 ships aren't used. Plus Megatraveller had TL17 disentegerators placed on TL13 hulls. So higher tech research vessels, equipment etc is available in the imperium, just not in widespread use.

Ah, but those 11K worlds are not all shipbuilding, nor, for the most part even capable of providing naval crews.

Maybe 2 thousand worlds in the imperium can make decent naval contributions. (To make starships require TL 9+, Starport A. The latter nearly guarantees the former....

Those Rich TL15 A-ports are probably providing nearly 50% of the fleet.

Now, hideous thought... Take your average Cruiser, and delete the JDrives and Jfuel, and you have a strong in-system ship with huge cargo space.... So those B-Ports may well stick to standard designs, and just rely upon Refits to put the JDrives in when the war starts...

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Theophilus:
Probably Not, the sheer scale of the imperium would make any single TL16 planetary navy irrelevant.

How many ships can a single system build verses the industrial output of 11000 worlds.

Unfortunately for the Imperium, it can't concentrate its entire industrial production at any single point. That means that individual worlds can make substantial contributions in specific cases.

The classic case is the Spinward Marches - virtually the entire industrial capability of the Marches is concentrated on Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora, and a handful of other worlds.

The output of these worlds is critical to the military strength of the Marches. This would be doubly the case if any of them were TL 16.

As for "how many ships" - well, it might actually be better for the TL 16 world to build subsystems rather than entire ships. That way, you could give all your TL 15 ships better sensors and fire control systems...

And heck no, you aren't going to avoid doing that because you are afraid your enemies might gain access to the technology and be able to neutralise your advantage. Because the only way of doing that is to neutralise your advantage yourself, by not taking advantage of it!

 

[Hal]

Regards to the batrons from FFW(boardgame): they differenced the colonial squadrons by making them less effective. This was an optional rule, but it was meant to simulate the difference in TL ships as well as the lower level of training that the subsector navies supposedly had.

From my perspective, I'd have to wonder if subsector navies are any less well trained than regulars - as they seemingly get more active duty than the Imperial regulars... just my two cents on it

 

[mike wightman]

To add to what alanb has said, next door to the Spinward Marches is the Deneb Sector. Highlights of which are the TL16 Depot system and Vincennes, a TL 16 High Population Industrial World with a type A starport.
In the Massilia Sector, detailed in the Knightfall adventure, there are 5 worlds with TL16, A starport, High Populations and industrial classification.
These powerhouses drive the economies of the sectors they are in.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Hal:
Regards to the batrons from FFW(boardgame): they differenced the colonial squadrons by making them less effective. This was an optional rule, but it was meant to simulate the difference in TL ships as well as the lower level of training that the subsector navies supposedly had.

From my perspective, I'd have to wonder if subsector navies are any less well trained than regulars - as they seemingly get more active duty than the Imperial regulars... just my two cents on it

I never understood the need for this optional rule as the TL difference should have been part of what makes up the attack and defence factors IMHO.

 

[PBI]

Sigg, since it's never really specified exactly what the squadron quality rule represents, I'd have to say it's both training and tech and changes depending on the squadrons used. The low-tech Zhodani and Imperial colonial squadrons (the J1s and 2s) I would think suffer because of tech. Same for the Vargr and Sword Worlds. As for the high-tech colonials (Zho and Imp), it seems that the quality difference represents a slightly lower level of training, whereas with the Imp and Zho regulars, it's probably tech again.

One of the pitfalls of trying to use FFW to reverse engineer things is that there are no designer's notes to explain how the various factors were determined, which is bloody annoying

 

[Hal]

I have to agree with you Sigg about what things represent. What is even more annoying is the fact that the game was copyright in 1981 - two years after High Guard came out. You'd have to wonder what each value on the counter represents in High Guard Terms - and as PBI pointed out, nothing is specified as to what means what really. For instance, what value does a Spinal N have for paws? What does a Spinal D in Meson mean numbers wise? What about missile attack factors? Is it a matter of how many missiles are involved for planetary bombardment, or is it something else? As the saying goes in polite circles...


ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

 

[robject]

I'm hijacking this thread to try to tie some ideas together. I'm hoping Sigg and Hal in particular will be interested in this.

1. To reasonably determine the individual elements of various Imperial FFW counters,

2. And to then propose possible budgetary constraints for the Imperial navy in the Spinward Marches at that time.

A good example of this is the 154th BatRon, which is in the SMC as well as the FFW (US-J4-6-2-8). It gives us a starting point by which to measure how valuable those FFW counters are, and what their composition may be. Moreover, three other BatRons with identical values are listed in FFW, which may give us a partial budget guide. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does a Nolikian cost roughly BCr400?

Here's some FFW detail:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Key:
C = Colonial squadron
I = Imperial squadron
PS = partial streamlining
US = unstreamlined
Attack factor - bombardment factor - defence factor</pre>[/QUOTE]</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">C.B4 PS 5-4-8 four numbered squadrons
I.B4 US 6-2-8 four squadrons ('cutting-edge') (the 154th et al)
I.B4 US 5-1-7 three squadrons
I.B3 US 8-0-4 six squadrons
I.B3 US 4-4-4 six squadrons
I.C5 PS 5-4-6 two squadrons ('cutting-edge')
I.C6 S 4-2-8 four squadrons ('cutting-edge')</pre>[/QUOTE]Another cool reference is this data about the 214th fleet.

And here's a link even more germane.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by robject:
A good example of this is the 154th BatRon, which is in the SMC as well as the FFW (US-J4-6-2-8). It gives us a starting point by which to measure how valuable those FFW counters are, and what their composition may be.

The 154th Battle Squadron may not be a good example. Why? Because it is suppose to be a BatRon, yet it costs less than many CruRons.

The 154th consists of:

1 300,000 T Lurenti Class Carrier @ MCr23,056 = 23,056
7 20,000 T Nolikian Class Battle Riders @ MCr9,268.25 = 64,878
200 50 T Sylean Class Heavy Fighters @ MCr105.33 = 21,066
7 5,000 T Sloan Class Escorts @ MCr3,334.5 = 23,342

A total of MCr132,342 of which MCr109,000 goes to the combat vessels and the remaining 17.6% goes to the escorts.

Obviously this must be one of the cheapest squadrons in the navy. If all the IN's 20,000 combat ships averaged a cost of around MCr19,000 (including the cost of its pendant auxiliary) apiece, then the total cost of the regular Imperial navy would be TCr380. Assuming that the combat vessels alone represent 15% of the Imperium's total military investment[*], which would make the whole shebang cost TCr2,533. Annual maintenance would run to TCr254. Divided by the 15 trillion inhabitants of the Imperium that would be Cr17 per man.

[*] This is from something I wrote a decade ago and I can no longer remember why I made that assumption. Sorry

For comparison, a CruRon consisting of 8 Atlantics plus 8 Sloans would cost MCr407,034 and a single Kokirrak costs more than the entire 154th BatRon (MCr135,102).

Then there's the question of the relative combat power. Are seven 20,000 T battleriders really a match for eight 200,000 T battleships? I sincerely hope not, because if they are, there'd be no sane reason for building battleships.

Calling the 154th a BatRon is a misnomer. If it had consisted of half a dozen Lurentis each carrying 7 Nolikans then it would have been a BatRon. But a single Lurenti is really just a CruRon.

Moreover, three other BatRons with identical values are listed in FFW, which may give us a partial budget guide. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does a Nolikian cost roughly BCr400?

Afraid not. MCr9,268.25 (CT figure, IIRC).

BTW, any budget calculations you make based on FFW should take into account that FFW effectively operated on the assumption that the population multiplier of each and every world was 1 (because the population multiplier had not yet been introduced). Which means that the planetary budgets, at least, average 5 times more than what FFW gives them.


Hans