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Firefly Alliance == Imperial Navy?

M

Malenfant

Guest
While watching the wondrous Firefly again, it suddenly occurred to me what was missing in Traveller - something like the Alliance.

And then it occurred to me what that could be in the OTU - the Imperial Navy, of course!

(maybe this ain't news to anyone else, but it is to me ;) ).

But I always got the impression that the Navy didn't actually do much, other than fight in big interstellar wars and patrol around looking impressive. Whereas if this idea is to hold then it's an invasive 'space police' that patrol systems looking for traders and small ships doing Crime and other such dubious activities that Traveller PCs often get up to to and then throwing the book at them if they get caught doing something dodgy.

Or is that how people run the Navy anyway in their games?
 
Sorry to disappoint you that is how I ran just about half my Traveller campaigns save the inspiration was the Imperial Navy from Star Wars. If you look over much of the CT illustrations of Naval personnel you see they have same WW2 Japanese peaked caps that they did in Star Wars. Now, GT has revised that and made them Yileans...that just won't do we got have a nasty dark navy but with glimmers of idealists that would make Hornblower & Nelson (Nilsen?) proud.
 
Gents,

From the earliest days(1) I have had to deal with the Imperium as a Traveller GM, the Imperium has been nothing but a power sharing agreement among various hi-pop worlds. This idea has served to 'bind' the Imperial Navy's hands IMTU.

While that take on the Imperium began as a way to distance or lessen imperial involvement in the various activities my PCs undertook, later readings by myself in the history of political organization(2) and later revelations in canon seemed to confirm my original suppositions.

IMTU, the Imperial Navy consists of large, powerful warships which are gathered into large, powerful squadrons. For the most part, these squadrons move about, constantly train, and pay little or no attention to merchant traffic, ECMs, or (ahem) piracy unless they are either forced or allowed to do so.

Why? Because in the words of the late, great Freddie Prinz Sr. It's not my job, man.

Sound silly? Mull over the role of the US military in drug traffic interdiction or illegal immigration thanks to the Posse Commitus(sp) act. The USN, USAF, and US Army could patrol the Gulf, Carribean, Mexican border, Sea of Cortez, and Pacific coast tightly enough to prevent ANY unwanted movement of peoples and goods from reaching the US proper. Why doesn't that occur? Because such an effort is not the military's job, man.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the Third Imperium has a 57th Century version of the Posse Commitus(sp) act on the books. What I am suggesting is that either the Imperial Navy's hands are tied by other means or that the Imperial Navy is officially focussed on other missions.

IMTU, the Imperium is ruled by it's Hi-Pop member worlds and they are quite jealous of each other. This dynamic permeates the Imperium from top to bottom.

The major benefit a Hi-Pop world recieves from belonging to the Imperium is that it needn't go through all the trouble of maintaining an empire on it's own resources. It needn't raise huge fleets, huge armies, garrison minor systems, bribe minor systems, and go through all the effort an empire requires solely by itself. The Imperium will do all that and do it wholesale, so the Hi-Pop world gets the benefits of a huge empire 'on the cheap'.

Because they belong to the Imperium in order to 'have' an empire 'on the cheap', the Hi-Pop worlds are always on the lookout for other Hi-Pop worlds exerting 'undue' influence among the 'hoi polloi' of lesser worlds. In other words, no Hi-Pop world will allow another to build an 'empire'; culturally, economically, or otherwise, within the Imperium.

All this means that, for example, the interests of Glisten are very well looked after by the Imperium while the interests of Grote can go hang. If someone or something is bothering Grote and Glisten speaks up for some imperial action to rectify the problem, other Hi-Pop world like Lunion or Aki are going to first think that Glisten is trying to slip a little 'internal' empire building past them and not that Grote actually needs the help. This Hi-Pop 'veto' power on Imperial action means that every Hi-Pop world within a given region can effectively prevent anything from being done for the slimmest, most partisan, or most paranoid of reasons.

Look at the UN and it's Security Council for a real world example of this. When viewed by the purpose stated in it's charter, the UN's only actual success, the intervention in Korea, occurred because the USSR happened to be boycotting Security Council meetings at that time, something it and every other power never did again for obvious reasons. In the case of the Third Imperium, the nobility is the 'security council' and they, while balancing the interests of their worlds and the Imperium, never, ever boycot any security council meetings.

So, Hi-Pop world jealousies and noble orders will bind the hands of the Imperial Navy in all but the most serious of situations. This is not to say that an IN vessel will blithely ignore any and all act of piracy that occurs in front of it. It is to say that IN vessels may not patrol as frequently, or as extensively, or for many of the reasons that we believe they do so. And, it is to say that an IN vessel may be ordered to ignore a trade war act that occurs in front of it.

Any request that the IN go ECM chasing around Grote will have to pass muster from several nearby Hi-Pop worlds and, given their suspicious relationships with each other, getting several nearby Hi-Pop worlds to agree on a spot of IN pirate chasing will take some doing.

This odd view of the Third Imperium is also helped by what Rob Davenport continually points out; The only sectors that we have anything beyond barebones knowledge of are the oddball sectors.

CT and MT only detailed the Marches and Rim of the Classic and Rebellion Eras (DGP's other Grand Survey material is extremely flawed) and T20 lovingly details the Gateway of 993. That's a total of two frontier sectors and a DMZ sector, definitely not common sectors by any stretch of the imagination. What we know of the Imperium, it's member worlds, the roles they play, and the relationships between each in those three sectors cannot be applied to the rest of the Imperium as a whole. The Marches, the Rim, and Gateway are not the Imperium, rather they are the exceptions.

Finally answering Dr. Thomas' question here, I don't see the Imperial Navy as Firefly's Alliance or as Star Wars' Imperial Navy. Instead, I see it as primarily a dynastic force tasked with defending the Imperium from outside threats. Furthermore, the Imperial Navy is closely watched by the Hi-Pop member worlds to see that it is not used by other Hi-Pop member worlds as means of 'internal empire' building. Finally, the Imperial navy is also very closely watched by the Hi-Pop member worlds to ensure it is not used as a tool of coercion against Hi-Pop member worlds.

I know all this is rather torturous thinking, but it the result of my trying to fit together the amoral nature of most Traveller adventures and PC actions with the 'large' but 'uncaring' Imperial Navy description that Traveller seemingly provides.

YMM and should V.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Yes, I'm ancient enough to have run canonical Traveller campaigns without an Imperium. The ear trumpet, walking frame, and adult incontinence garment should be a clue.

2 - For example, I see the Imperium as operating on a pre-1798 idea of government later labeled 'territorial supremacy' and not the post-1789 'territorial sovereignty' idea that we of 2005 automatically assume when we use the term government.
 
Well, yes, that's pretty much how I assumed the navy and Imperium worked. It's also the primary reason why I find the CT background just so darn boring.

My point though (and maybe I should have posted this in the IMTU board, but I didn't know where it was appropriate) is that I think it would make the setting a darn sight more interesting from a play perspective (and mine
) if Travellers DID have to worry about running into Navy cruisers and DID have to worry about scavenging ships and carrying fugitives and so on, and where the Navy DID have fairly obvious contempt for anyone off the beaten track on the worlds that are away from the main jump lines.

I don't think the OTU really makes as much of a distinction between the worlds that aren't on the jump routes and the ones that are as it should do. Look at Firefly and you can see the difference as plain as day - the core worlds are rich and hightech, the frontier worlds are poor and lowtech. And there's a lot of resentment, misery, and massive cultural differences because of that.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
... I think it would make the setting a darn sight more interesting from a play perspective (and mine
) if Travellers DID have to worry about running into Navy cruisers and DID have to worry about scavenging ships and carrying fugitives and so on, and where the Navy DID have fairly obvious contempt for anyone off the beaten track on the worlds that are away from the main jump lines.
Dr. Thomas,

Please don't misunderstand me. My take on the OTU's Imperial Navy isn't as bleak as all that.

IMTU, the PCs did have to worry about the IN, they just didn't know when they had to do that worrying.

One week, doing X in System Z was nothing to worry about. The next week, doing X in System Z would have the IN breathing down their necks. It all depended on politics between Hi-Pop worlds, something the PCs could rarely effect and barely predict. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, this allowed me to use the Imperial Navy in random yet consistent manner.

Saying the IN could not act all the time could not be defended, why would it then exist? Yet saying the IN could act all of the time - i.e. the Plankwell in every system the Imperial budget seemingly can easily afford - would mean many of the PCs' activities would never happen. I needed to strike a balance between inaction and action. I believe I did so when I blamed it all on internal Imperial politics.

Simply put, there were times and places where the IN acted and others where it didn't and/or couldn't. Simply put, the PCs could get stroppy in some backwater hellhole and still have to watch themselves in Mora.

And just because the PCs got away with something in front of a hands-bound IN, it didn't mean they weren't on a list somewhere the IN kept for those times and places it could do something!

I don't think the OTU really makes as much of a distinction between the worlds that aren't on the jump routes and the ones that are as it should do. Look at Firefly and you can see the difference as plain as day - the core worlds are rich and hightech, the frontier worlds are poor and lowtech. And there's a lot of resentment, misery, and massive cultural differences because of that.
And you don't see those same things in the OTU? Thanks to the Imperium's support of free trade, goods and services supposedly move freely between starports yet most worlds in the Imperium operate at tech level well below 15. Believe me, the core world 'haves' and frontier world 'have-nots' exist in the OTU too, sometimes only a parsec apart!


Have fun,
Bill

edited for poor spelling, as always!
 
Sure, there are definitely lowtech backwater worlds, but they mostly don't seem to have the desperate frontier feel - they seem to be like that because they WANT to be like that (that's the impression I get anyway).
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Sure, there are definitely lowtech backwater worlds, but they mostly don't seem to have the desperate frontier feel - they seem to be like that because they WANT to be like that (that's the impression I get anyway).
Dr. Thomas,

Worlds full of neo-luddites, 57th Century Amish, and the like? That's an interesting take on the subject and one that could fit many lowtech backwater worlds, but does it fit all of them?

I'll admit my description doesn't fit every lowtech backwater in the Imperium either, but I think it fits more of them than a neo-luddite label does.

Of course, I may very well be wrong! ;)

Look at Tsarina in the Marches. A few million people in/on a 1600km, nearly airless, almost waterless rock, 'enjoying' a TL of 5, and ruled by a self-perptuating oligarchy.

One parsec off in Bendor, a 11200km planet of a few millions, with an atmosphere you can actually breathe, with actual oceans, and a TL of C.

Two parsecs off is Glisten, an asteroid belt sure, but the subsector capital and a TL of F.

Why would anyone live on Tsarina if they had a choice? After all, the price of one low passage will take you to two better systems.

Discounting random system generation { ;) }, all those millions are either on Tsarina becasue they want to be; i.e. neo-luddites or some such, or because they haven't any choice in the matter; i.e. Bendor and Glisten have immigration limits.

Both reasons work, both reasons are valid, but IMTU the latter is the one most used.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Worlds full of neo-luddites, 57th Century Amish, and the like? That's an interesting take on the subject and one that could fit many lowtech backwater worlds, but does it fit all of them?
Well, in Firefly, the worlds are terraformed, and then colonists are dumped on them and left to their own devices. That at least provides an excuse for them being low tech.

In Traveller, frankly, I don't see any reason why anyone would be living on the crappy worlds at all. Sure, some of them could be exiles, or small mining camps or things like that, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why the Imperium - or the rich worlds - should ignore them completely.

It's kinda like all the rich countries in the world just saying "screw the poor ones, we're just going to do what's best for us". Which admittedly is pretty much their attitude anyway ;) , but I'm talking about total abandonment of the poor countries in the world - not throwing them any crumbs at all.

But that seems to be how the poorer worlds are treated in the OTU. Again, it's down to the random world generation I think, putting nonsensical populations on worlds that nobody would touch with a bargepole.

And where are the FAILED colonies? Tsarina should be dead - a population surviving on a low gravity world with no water and an atmosphere thinner than the top of Mount Everest, at TL5?


Why would anyone live on Tsarina if they had a choice? After all, the price of one low passage will take you to two better systems.

Discounting random system generation { ;) }, all those millions are either on Tsarina becasue they want to be; i.e. neo-luddites or some such, or because they haven't any choice in the matter; i.e. Bendor and Glisten have immigration limits.
Why though? Why would a huge habitable world (somewhat unlikely around an A5 V star, but never mind ;) ) and an asteroid belt with bazillions of rocks to put up shacks on have an immigration limit?
 
I humbly suggest part of the "problem" (if it is) is due to the random generation of systems. Had the X boat routes and major trade routes been one and the same, and developed prior to the mainworlds you'd see a clearer destinction between Have worlds, and Have not worlds.

For example, being on a Main should provide a plus for population and TL as in theory Mains would have been explored, colonised, and developed prior to worlds off Mains concurrent with jump 1 development. They should have older more established cultures thus be more powerfull economically, technologically, and polictically.
A simple change like that would go some way towards deliniating between two types of settings, cultures, backgrounds, what have you which is what I understand Malenfant is alluding to with the Firefly referrence of Core worlds and border moons.
 
Mal, have you been following the proto-Traveller thread?

The TU that is written about in the early adventures and early rules add-ons is significantly different to what the later OTU became.

The early version of has a much greater Firefly feel to it IMHO
 
Mal:

IMTU, the imperium provides a minimmal security force for every member world. Larger worlds can and do provide their own, and space travellers are only a couple orders of magnitude more than astronauts today.

For example, most (95%) Reginans have probably never been outsystem. 90% have probably never been off moon (regina is a moon, after all). And this is a subsector capital, and former imperial capital.

People on garden worlds will seldom need off-world.

Anyway, this leaves the navy, also IMTU basically a redressed SW navy, with little to do most of the time. So they cause fear and Awe. They do customs where needed, and police the lesser noble-driven Cluster and subsector navies; those do most of the day to day patrols.

The Imperium IMTU is a protection alliance that got out of hand. In the core, thee IN Never even enters the 100D limit unless called for.

The IN is there to smash any local noble who gets too strong an aspiration for power... the iron fist in the velvet glove.

I've not seen firefly, but yes, IMTU, the Various subsector, County, and Sector navies do patrol the merchantmen. Some worlds are even renowned for the efficiency, corruption or politeness. In once campaign, the choice was loads to two worlds: one friendly but slow, and the other rude, pervasive and ruthless, but somewhat careless... they took the polite but slow run... so they could shuffle the contraban out of site.
 
Originally posted by Badbru:
I humbly suggest part of the "problem" (if it is) is due to the random generation of systems.
Not the random generation in itself, but random generation that isn't vetted afterwards by an editor.

Random generation, like fire, is a great servant but a terrible master. It is great for starting ideas percolating and ensuring against too much of the same old same old. But you have to go through the results afterwards and weed out the howlers.


Hans
 
Originally posted by rancke:
Random generation, like fire, is a great servant but a terrible master. It is great for starting ideas percolating and ensuring against too much of the same old same old. But you have to go through the results afterwards and weed out the howlers.
Or keep on at Mal about his world generation system ... ;)
 
I have actually started working on it again, slowly - had some trouble with mental blocks for a while that I seem to be getting over...

Plus, let's say you're not the only ones who may be interested in seeing the finished version... ;)
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Look at Tsarina in the Marches. A few million people in/on a 1600km, nearly airless, almost waterless rock, 'enjoying' a TL of 5, and ruled by a self-perptuating oligarchy.

One parsec off in Bendor, a 11200km planet of a few millions, with an atmosphere you can actually breathe, with actual oceans, and a TL of C.

Two parsecs off is Glisten, an asteroid belt sure, but the subsector capital and a TL of F.

Why would anyone live on Tsarina if they had a choice? After all, the price of one low passage will take you to two better systems.

Discounting random system generation { ;) }, all those millions are either on Tsarina becasue they want to be; i.e. neo-luddites or some such, or because they haven't any choice in the matter; i.e. Bendor and Glisten have immigration limits.
May I suggest a third possibility? The Oligarchy won't let the serfs emigrate.

IIRC, the Alliance Navy was seldom imaginative, frequently officious, sometimes rigid, and often serving the purposes of Mysterious Powers. They were also quick to judge and could be brutal if they thought you deserved it.

They also demonstrated that they were frequently concientous and sometimes fair-minded, given their limitations.

This could describe much of the CT Navy. Even more the Sector and Sub-Sector Navies usually e
 
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