Financial Systems

[phil644441]

OK, you old hands - smack me down if this topic is covered in an old thread that's too old for me to find easily....(and point me to it!).

Is there a 'standard' explanation for how the financial systems of the galaxy work in the circumstance where personal travel is faster than personal communication? What stops massive credit card fraud - heck, who's to know if you paid off your starship at another base owned by the company that sold it to you?

AK

 

[Simone]

AK

I always thought that financial upadates might be carried on a "hidden" channel in ship's transponders - after all, data storage is tiny - the first thing which happens when ANY legitimate ship from some distant port "emerges" is a financial update, at speed of light, of local database, from the distant planetary database, to disallow such naughty bahaviors as credit card fraud
- one of the secret functions of the j6 network would be such financial "pony express" updates - manipulations are still possible, just more challenging.

sojourner

 

[far-trader]

Yep, that's pretty much how the MT "Starship Operators Manual Vol. 1"* describes it iirc, or it might have been from TNE. In the notes on the history of the Imperial transponders and black boxes the ship's history, including payments, is logged and shared each time you enter a system with a starport.

There was also an article on ABMs (Automated Banking Machines) and Cred Cards in an old JTAS. I think it mentioned that a ship's computer could handle the same function of verification, or there was an option to add an ABM to your ship, I don't recall the specifics.

* don't bother looking for subsequent volumes, there were no more, and good luck finding a copy, it's rare and valuable, apparently

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Soldiurnare:
...one of the secret functions of the j6 network would be such financial "pony express" updates - manipulations are still possible, just more challenging.

sojourner

Not saying it couldn't be, just a note that the J4 regular X-boat service is more than enough for this duty, very few merchants can outrun it for long, most of them being J1

I figure the J6 couriers are busy enough with much more important matters than a few BCr of the travelling public, especially when most of that is honest transactions. The fraud and skips are nothing in the Imperial budget, it's more a local matter.

 

[BetterThanLife]

There is no reason that your Credit Card couldn't carry your financial history on it. It would get automatically updated whenever the XBoat mail caught up to you and you slot or swipe your card. (And viceversa, the charges would go the other way from your card as well.) Similar to the way cards used to work, the slips were sent through the mail.

Since the vast majority of people stay on one planet, or in a small cluster of planets, this system would generally work fine. There will be individuals that travel farther afield, and for them, because of the XBoat system, even they are unlikely to outrun their credit problems or money. Certainly not for long.

As for the ship's transponder having your record of payments imbedded into it, it makes sense, as does having the maintenance records imbedded as well.

 

[aramis]

Most CT material shows that much of the system works on cash transactions. In fact, in CT adventures, I find no references at all to electronic moneys.

Banking is apparently a localized phenomena.

Real World: pre-telegraph, banks would only make loans to locals, and would use primarily local depositors for their lending allowance, with severe penalties for early withdrawls. Checks were draft letters upon a given account, and were accepted only if the bank verified the signatures, and often only after contacting the signator...

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

I would imagine that large banks associated with megacorporations and networks of banks become very important (especially for those 'local' travellers who stick to a cluster of destinations). If your bank issues you a credit card other branches of that bank or 'allied/network-member' banks will be willing to trust the data carried on the card and trust that your parent branch or bank will make good on the financial transaction. People with accounts at distant or non-member banks probably have a harder time and thus must carry more cash or certified (Imperial or megacorp?) cash equivelents.

 

[Elliot]

16 and 17 century 'banks' (thus pre telegraph) used a system of documentary credits - A purchased a credit note from bank in Venice for 1000 li and took it to same bank in Flanders who would verify the credit note and exchange it for cash. The notes were on the basis of 'I promise to pay the bearer', if it was stolen it could be cashed by the thief (so you didn't get it stolen).

This meant it was transferable - I could sell it to you and you could cash it.

Eventually the documentary credit notes stood in for actual currency as their transferability meant they were as good as 'real' currency.

I don't see how this would be any different in the Traveller universe -

I always favoured the old JTAS credit card which can be topped up with credits by a local bank - rather like a prepay mobile telephone - the main objection is fraud and forgery, but that's what people said about bank notes in the Seventeenth century...

 

[Spiderfish]

The old JTAS top up card sounds like it could be useful on worlds with a high enough TL. It could be tampered with though providing an endless bank balance.

A card that carries your credit and finnancial history as Bhoins mentioned could also be a good method. But it may be very vunerable to fraud if in the hands of a sufficiently skilled individual.

Has anyone mentioned rates of exchange yet between differing local currencies? Is there one sole unit of currency in the Imperium?

Over such vast distances as the entire Imperium credit simply isn't a feasible option. It's sometimes hard to get things dealt with when your account is in the next town so the next sector might be a bit of a stretch.

Realistically the worth on money/credit rests solely in what it can buy. A pound coin for example is worth nothing unless you can exchange it for goods.

 

[Elliot]

This fraud thing does ire me somewhat - In real life bank notes are capable of being forged (and regularly are), an entire fake credit history is capable of being created very easily (hint: its done by raiding the bins of people who throw away (without shredding) with those pre-selection credit card flyers that lenders are always sending to people) - YET - there is general confidence in the bank note system and in the credit industry.

In the real world people get burnt by fraud, but what makes you think forgers in Traveller are any more prevalent that in the early 21C. A system of abstract currency (i.e. bank notes and credit cards) is always open to attack - so I think the forgery thing is a non argument.

By the way, real currency (gold and silver) was open to attack too - you clipped some real gold or silver off a coin and welded some composite like copper or nickel on to the old coin. You did this enough times and you had a free guinea or what ever. Yet that system lasted from the Romans to the 18th century without major problem.

 

[Spiderfish]

I'm very aware of the level of fraud in our society. I have to deal with it every day at work. Still we like to minimise our risks.

In fact we have certain rules fo rNigerian customers at the bank for that same reason. They are notorious fraudsters. The certain rules being "on yer bike mate".

 

[Elliot]

Sorry when I said ire - i didn't mean to aim it at your comment - its just you get the no credit system can work in the 3I coz of potential fraud thing all the time and I just feel this misses any understanding of how credit transactions work in a modern (or even early modern) economy.

Anyway I have a suitcase full of notes that I found in my dead auntie's house in Lagos, could I use that as deposit for a house?

 

[Spiderfish]

Computer says no

 

[BetterThanLife]

ON a similar thought. How do you make starship payments in YTU? In mne they are made at Class A or B starports and the Transponder is updated to reflect the payment. SInce we only deal with A and B starports for this the maintenance is easily done and the traffic is sufficiently high that your payment is headed back to your particular bank at a fairly fast clip.

I was going to limit it to XBoat routes or Class A ports but I have had parties that tend to travel off the beaten path and even the mains don't have an abundance of such ports.

How would you make payments if you are outside the borders of the Imperium?

 

[Elliot]

Posted by Spiderfish

'Computer says no'

So you are the other one who watches BBC 3.

 

[Spiderfish]

Indeed though I was disapointed by the newest series.

If I wanted to see elderly women being sick i'd piss in the water cooler in the hospital again...

 

[mike wightman]

 

[jchurchill]

posted 24-10-2004 08:10
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16 and 17 century 'banks' (thus pre telegraph) used a system of documentary credits - A purchased a credit note from bank in Venice for 1000 li and took it to same bank in Flanders who would verify the credit note and exchange it for cash. The notes were on the basis of 'I promise to pay the bearer', if it was stolen it could be cashed by the thief (so you didn't get it stolen).

This meant it was transferable - I could sell it to you and you could cash it.
================================================
IMTU -- the letter of credit is the main source of credit. Irrevocable of course...not the other.

 

[aramis]

IMTU, Ship's payments are documented on "paper", the ship's transponder, and notice forwarded via X-mail; most A and B ports will have enough to justify a daily payments X-mail (authenticated and one time pad encrypted). The transponder has an encryption-cypher taken from a standard book for the company issuing the loan; twin key cyphering, and if not reset within 35 days, starts "squaking" "Skip" rather than the normal return on transponders.

Of course, such transponders are often tampered with... but f one gets CAUGHT, it's a high crime. (IMTU, Barratry, punishable by DEATH.)

I assume that most often, if one want's a credit account good on multiple worlds, one gets letters of deposit through the banks or scout services; these letters are, semi-negotiable instruments. They are not transferable, being issuee only, and are a guarantee of X amount of reserved capital; only a bank may negotiate it, typically. If they send a notice of funds expended, and recieve back the right funding(taken from excess in the account above LOD face value), they'll return it to the issuee after all is handled. If there are not sufficiennt funds, they send the instrument via courier or XMail, to get the FULL letter face value. IMTU, most merchants try to keep a LOD for KCr100, just so that they have a full run, just in case.

Basically, it's a means of getting a loan against a non-accesable deposit in a different system... I usually charge characters 0.01%, minimmum Cr100 for LoD's of KCr1 or more.

Under 1KCr, traveller's transit cards are available from the IISS. It's a bearer card, with an imprinted value, and a holo of the bearer. Cost is Cr10+ face. most local banks treat these same way, charging Cr5 for a local debit card, with same value, as a prepay. They cash them with the IISS.

 

[BetterThanLife]

That is about how I had it figured. Though using Electronic documents. (Stashed in the brains of a credit card sized device.)

Remember that you have to, by rules, be able to create one with use of the Forgery skill. Eventually you will get caught when the records catch up to you, but it makes for a nice scam against someone that can't report you to the authorities. (Of course they probably have other means.)

Originally posted by secretagent:
posted 24-10-2004 08:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 and 17 century 'banks' (thus pre telegraph) used a system of documentary credits - A purchased a credit note from bank in Venice for 1000 li and took it to same bank in Flanders who would verify the credit note and exchange it for cash. The notes were on the basis of 'I promise to pay the bearer', if it was stolen it could be cashed by the thief (so you didn't get it stolen).

This meant it was transferable - I could sell it to you and you could cash it.
================================================
IMTU -- the letter of credit is the main source of credit. Irrevocable of course...not the other.