Fifth Frontier War PBEM - Initial GM observations

[jappel]

I can't speak too specifically about events in the game yet as we're playing with limited intelligence and limited communications, but here's a few general observations I thought I'd share.

The background:

The Fifth Frontier War PBEM is now wrapping up Turn 5, the fifth week of the war; the game date is 215-1107. None of the players know whom is who; all communications are routed through the GM (me) and once the war started, communication delays were introduced. To avoid the housekeeping of tracking individual courier ships, the game assumes an inherent pool of J4 couriers available to all the fleets of both sides. The Zhodani have a pool of J5 couriers available between one fleet and Sector HQ, while the Imperials have a pool of J6 couriers.

Couriers will follow paths preferring friendly systems, neutral systems and enemy systems in that order, but it's kind of a virtual path; I look at the map and message log each turn and figure out if a given message has reached the intended recipients yet.

The Zhodani and Imperial sides each have a CINC who's parcelling out the forces and issuing orders to the fleet commanders. Most of these are players, but each side has or will have a few NPC fleets (room for more players, just drop me a note!) The Sword Worlds and Vargr have only one player apiece, so these players are doing double duty as CINC and as a fleet commander.

Friendly systems have a chance to get a courier off to warn of enemy incursions; having an A or B starport, a naval base or a scout base improve those chances.

Observations:

The comm lag is something to behold. I don't think it's giving too much away to say that the Zhodani entered the Jewell system turn 1 (some players haven't officially heard this in-game yet, but it shouldn't be a surprise). A jump-4 courier from Jewell to the sector HQ on Rhylanor, following the preferences I outlined earlier, still hasn't reached Rhylanor and won't until turn 6 - 6 weeks after the beginning of the war! (I should note that according to the canonical TNS entries, there must have been a jump-6 courier between Rhylanor and Regina, as the Zhodani ambassador delivered the declaration of war to Norris on 187-1107, and it was known on Rhylanor on 201-1107.)

Some of the more mobile players have also asked "Where's the mail from home?" The answer is, "Somewhere behind you!" Even J3 fleets can bounce around just ahead of the couriers for a couple of weeks, particularly if they're travelling through relatively back-water systems.

The astrography of the Marches, combined with these communications challenges, definitely leads to "theaters of command". The Abyss in Vilis and Lanth subsectors means operations down by the border with the Sword Worlds really are a totally separate war from things happening in Jewell and Regina subsectors. Communications between these regions takes almost as long as between them and HQ.

Things are just now getting to the stage where some of the players are receiving word of events that happend weeks ago - some far away, some relatively nearby - and are having to figure out appropriate courses of action based on this old intelligence.

The TL column shifts on the ground combat table are brutal, especially if the attacker has at least a 2:1 advantage over the defender. Regular or high-tech colonial forces (i.e., TL 14-15) cut through the more common TL 10-12 forces easily. Large numbers of defense battalions or guerillas aren't a guarantee of victory if the other side can shift the odds four or five columns in their favor. For example: a guerilla unit on Porozlo has a strength of 15K (10% of the local defense battalion
strength) at TL 10. Against an elite Imperial Marine regiment (modified strength factor 10), it easily has a 100:1 attack against the Marines. But those 5 TLs knock the guerilla attack down to 1.5:1 (3:2) odds - and the Marines go from having no viable counter punch to a 1:1.5 attack back! Of course, against the native colonial field armies, it's like a scene from Ishandawala(sp)...

That's all the musings for now. Anything more specific would give away stuff that wouldn't be obvious to the players. The first "news releases" from the game are still a couple of weeks away.

John

 

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Appel,

With giving too much away from my end, I think my little - in the game - trip that's coming up will be a real eye opener. I'll be contacting couriers with more and more current information, almost like the TNS on fast forward.

Those TL shifts sound brutal, but they fit HG2 space combat. There is little a TL10 vessel can do against a TL15 foe.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Mr Whipsnade.
Tl makes no difference to space combat only to ground combat.
Bye.

 

[Badbru]

Jappel,
Just a quick note to say thanks for this thread and please keep it updated as your game progresses.
I've never played in the Marches and don't know much about the fith frontier war so it's nice to see a blow by blow coverage of it (even if not canocal)Kinda like watching Chechnya or Iraq on CNN. Looking forward to more as the weeks pass.

 

[Straybow]

Larsen, don't forget that if your fleet isn't jumping to the exact same systems as the x-boat, you could be missing all the messages.

 

[PBI]

Another thing to note about the tech shifts is that those are standard for the Fifth Frontier War game itself and are not a house rule. And yes, it does make for a rather interesting time should the Sword Worlds be stupid enough to invade a Lanth defended by even two Imperial Marine regiments

TL also does make a difference, indirectly, in space combat, if the optional squadron quality rules are used, though the quality rules cover things like training and doctrine as well as tech level.

 

[Whipsnade]

Lionel Deffries wrote:

"Tl makes no difference to space combat only to ground combat."


Mr. Deffries,

Yup, mea culpa, I was wrong. TL makes no difference in FFW space combat.

Check out HG2 sometime for TL differences that do apply to space combat; power plant size per MW, computers, weapon ratings, screens, armor cost and volume, the list is lengthy.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Straybow wrote:

"Larsen, don't forget that if your fleet isn't jumping to the exact same systems as the x-boat, you could be missing all the messages.

"


Mr. Bow,

Yup, it may be possible that I may not run across any of the jump4 couriers flitting about.

However - and not giving too much away - taking into consideration my previous experiences with FFW, my force's starting point, my force's orders, and a few other things I can't mention, I feel certain I'll be intercepting lots of couriers.

Either way, the next few game weeks will be very interesting.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[plop101]

Grand Master Whipsnade writes:

Yup, mea culpa, I was wrong. TL makes no difference in FFW space combat.

Not directly, but isn't there that rule about regular fleets vs colonial and allied fleets. I don't have it with me right now, but I think thats supposed to take care of the TL differance.

Course, that still doesn't help the poor Zho fleet that goes into Louzy. We'll notify your next of kin.

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Tl makes no difference to space combat only to ground combat.

Technically correct.... more accurately the TL factors are probably already incorporated into the ship counters.

I'm playing and having a ball. Definitely looking forward to a detailed 'post game' anaylsis!


--michael

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Plop101.
I always assumed the difference was in the training between Regular and Colonial ships.
Also like the ships and aircraft America sells to other countries, they arn't first rated quality (not saying there crap just saying they dont have all the bells and whistled and top notch electronics America dosn't want potential enemys to have or friends for that matter).
Bye.

 

[jappel]

I should mention that we are not using the optional squadron quality rules, nor the black globe rule for that matter. We are utilizing the Surprise Attack rule, and this ex-paratrooper couldn't resist the Jump Troops rule.

Anyone interested in checking out the rules modifications as well as some Q&A between me and the players should visit ffw.travellercentral.com.

Big thanks to Tod Glenn, aka Corejob on these boards, for providing the web space.

John

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by jappel:
A jump-4 courier from Jewell to the sector HQ on Rhylanor, following the preferences I outlined earlier, still hasn't reached Rhylanor and won't until turn 6 - 6 weeks after the beginning of the war! (I should note that according to the canonical TNS entries, there must have been a jump-6 courier between Rhylanor and Regina, as the Zhodani ambassador delivered the declaration of war to Norris on 187-1107, and it was known on Rhylanor on 201-1107.)

I have no objection to the notion that Regina has jump-6 couriers to send to Rhylanor (In fact, I think that all fleets, major fleet bases, and bases on major worlds (even if the base is just an office) will have jump-6 couriers assigned. The smaller bases may have only a couple apiece, so that they may be caught without a courier actually standing by, but the major bases and those on subsector capitals will have dozens.), but this is not really evidence of that. If the Zhodani delivered a declaration of war to the Duchy of Regina, it's pretty likely that they would deliver one to the Duchy of Rhylanor (and certain that they would deliver one to the Duchess of Mora).

You do know that during the Age of Sail, reports and orders weren't just sent by one courier? They were sent out in multiple copies so that if one courier didn't make it, another one would. And in many cases orders were sent to several different stations so that no matter which one the captain took his ship to, his orders would be waiting for him? Your reports and orders would probably percolate through the Marches in a network rather than in long serpentine lines.


Hans

 

[PBI]

Originally posted by rancke:

I have no objection to the notion that Regina has jump-6 couriers to send to Rhylanor (In fact, I think that all fleets, major fleet bases, and bases on major worlds (even if the base is just an office) will have jump-6 couriers assigned. The smaller bases may have only a couple apiece, so that they may be caught without a courier actually standing by, but the major bases and those on subsector capitals will have dozens.), but this is not really evidence of that. If the Zhodani delivered a declaration of war to the Duchy of Regina, it's pretty likely that they would deliver one to the Duchy of Rhylanor (and certain that they would deliver one to the Duchess of Mora).

Yes, but this is a war game not an RPG and I, for one, would not want to have to keep track of which world had J-6 and which had J-4 for the Imperium and which had J-5 and which had J-4 for the Zhodani, even though it's a well-known secret that the Imperium, at least, has a J-6 network for military and gov't communications.

The other thing is that the TAS reports only specify receiving the declaration of war at Regina. Not that that makes any difference, seeing as how all players know that the war starts on Turn 1

[qb]You do know that during the Age of Sail, reports and orders weren't just sent by one courier? They were sent out in multiple copies so that if one courier didn't make it, another one would. And in many cases orders were sent to several different stations so that no matter which one the captain took his ship to, his orders would be waiting for him? Your reports and orders would probably percolate through the Marches in a network rather than in long serpentine lines.
/QB]

Yes, well, if us players don't think of that, and send out multiple couriers, how's it going to happen?

At this point, I'd like to ask people to not offer suggestions and insights like this until the game is over. There were definite implied cases in the PBEM rules that our GM sent us that, if not picked up on by the astute, could lead to some rather interesting and frustrating times for players and I'd hate to see a comment by folks not involved in the game give players ideas they may not have had.

Of course, I'm just a player and not the GM, so this is a "just for what it's worth" kind of plea.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by PBI:
Yes, but this is a war game not an RPG and I, for one, would not want to have to keep track of which world had J-6 and which had J-4 for the Imperium and which had J-5 and which had J-4 for the Zhodani, even though it's a well-known secret that the Imperium, at least, has a J-6 network for military and gov't communications.[/qb]

Not a problem IMO. I'd say all Imperial Navy couriers would be jump-6. It is a publically known fact, not a secret at all, that the Imperial Navy has jump-6 couriers, and they're such useful things and not expensive at all (compared to other ships

).

The other thing is that the TAS reports only specify receiving the declaration of war at Regina.

So what? Unless you're prepared to claim that the TAS newsbriefs that were publshed in the JTAS constitutes the sum total of all TAS newsbriefs sent during the 5FW, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All one can say is that there is no firm proof that the Zhos delivered declarations of war to other places too. Which is why I couched my opinion in terms of likelihood.

Not that that makes any difference, seeing as how all players know that the war starts on Turn 1

Really? It would have made quite a difference in any game I GM'ed, since I would not allow a player to start moving his forces around until his character had received word of the incursion.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You do know that during the Age of Sail, reports and orders weren't just sent by one courier? They were sent out in multiple copies so that if one courier didn't make it, another one would. And in many cases orders were sent to several different stations so that no matter which one the captain took his ship to, his orders would be waiting for him? Your reports and orders would probably percolate through the Marches in a network rather than in long serpentine lines.

Yes, well, if us players don't think of that, and send out multiple couriers, how's it going to happen?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, if your GM don't think this is SOP for the Imperium or the Consulate, then you players won't have enough couriers to do it. And if he thinks that it is SOP, then you'd have staff officers who made sure it happened, in which case the procedure would be automatic and completely transparent to you.

At this point, I'd like to ask people to not offer suggestions and insights like this until the game is over. There were definite implied cases in the PBEM rules that our GM sent us that, if not picked up on by the astute, could lead to some rather interesting and frustrating times for players and I'd hate to see a comment by folks not involved in the game give players ideas they may not have had.

I hope I haven't spoiled anything for anybody. I'm afraid I'm inclined to look at these kind of games as RPGs, with players taking the roles of nobles and admirals, rather than war games with the players taking the role of people pushing counters around on a map.

In the case of RPGs you frequently run into situations where the character would be pefectly aware of facts that the player didn't know, and in such cases it seems counterintutive to let the Admiral of the Xth Fleet labor under a tremendous disadvantage just because his player overlooked a bet.

With a wargame I can totally understand that the astute player would want any advantage he can get, regardless of how it affects the versimilitude of the background.


Hans

 

[Straybow]

Yes, orders get sent out in several routes. News and intelligence coming in from the front is another matter.

 

[PBI]

Originally posted by rancke:
Not a problem IMO. I'd say all Imperial Navy couriers would be jump-6. It is a publically known fact, not a secret at all, that the Imperial Navy has jump-6 couriers, and they're such useful things and not expensive at all (compared to other ships

).

That works for naval forces, but do all worlds have high-jump couriers? And, just FYI, but "open secret" or "well-known secret" implies that something is common, if unofficial, knowledge.

Really? It would have made quite a difference in any game I GM'ed, since I would not allow a player to start moving his forces around until his character had received word of the incursion.

Unfortunately, this is a wargame, not an RPG, and the rules quite clearly state what can and cannot be done.

Well, if your GM don't think this is SOP for the Imperium or the Consulate, then you players won't have enough couriers to do it. And if he thinks that it is SOP, then you'd have staff officers who made sure it happened, in which case the procedure would be automatic and completely transparent to you.

You've missed the point. The NPC admirals do automatically send status reports back, but unless a player sets up such an SOP, status reports would only be sent if a player took the time to actually send such a message.

It's quite possible that some players forgot to do that, and by making the observation you have made, you may have affected the game, which is why I, as a player, made the appeal for such assesments to cease.

I hope I haven't spoiled anything for anybody. I'm afraid I'm inclined to look at these kind of games as RPGs, with players taking the roles of nobles and admirals, rather than war games with the players taking the role of people pushing counters around on a map.

Fifth Frontier War is a wargame, however, not an RPG, so your point is moot.

In the case of RPGs you frequently run into situations where the character would be pefectly aware of facts that the player didn't know, and in such cases it seems counterintutive to let the Admiral of the Xth Fleet labor under a tremendous disadvantage just because his player overlooked a bet.

I could make the counter-argument that just because a character knows certain skills it doesn't mean a character will make the correct decisions. History is full of circumstances where people who should have known better have made incredible blunders.

The kind of assumption you're making makes an RPG almost too easy. I've experienced personally how someone trained and experienced has forgotten to take care of an important, but routine, detail, and taking such elements out of a game can serve to lessen the difficulty too much.

 

[PBI]

The staff argument

Yes, the admiral doesn't do everything (like arrange for supplies, thank God), but some of the routine tasks can be so important that they affect game play, and when routine tasks rise to that level, then automating it is counter-productive.

The problem is that FFW was designed to be played by 2 players with no rules for comm lag and so the rules we're playing with now are, in effect, being playtested. I have no problem with it, it's kind of fun not knowing how the rest of the war is going and constantly wondering where on the spear I am

If you read the rules John sent us, though, you'll note that it is stated that NPC admirals wil automatically send status reports, but nothing was mentioned about players. Also, it was mentioned that detachments operating without a player present will act based on their orders and if those orders are vague, the GM will interpret what the detachment will do. There's a clear implication there that no orders will automatically go out from a player admiral unless that player actively sends a message and/or sets up a standing order.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by PBI:
If you read the rules John sent us, though, you'll note that it is stated that NPC admirals wil automatically send status reports, but nothing was mentioned about players. Also, it was mentioned that detachments operating without a player present will act based on their orders and if those orders are vague, the GM will interpret what the detachment will do. There's a clear implication there that no orders will automatically go out from a player admiral unless that player actively sends a message and/or sets up a standing order.

There also seems (to me) to be a clear implication that it is not a pure wargame. Any time you start to speak of GMs running NPCs, you are, IMO, into RPG territory.


Hans

 

[PBI]

Originally posted by rancke:
/QUOTE]There also seems (to me) to be a clear implication that it is not a pure wargame. Any time you start to speak of GMs running NPCs, you are, IMO, into RPG territory.


Hans

[/QB]

Well, it isn't. GMs are a common feature of wargames played by e-mail. Granted, this is a varient FFW game we're playing, as the original has no rules for limited communication or intelligence, but it's definitely not an RPG.