Fiefs...

[GypsyComet]

I suspect all of the "OF" nobles, those generated during the world generation process, will have their own fief. As the above quote indicates, they are cumulative. This suggests pretty strongly that each "OF" Title has its own chunk of land.

The "FROM" Nobles, those that emerge from character generation, may have just as much power as their "OF" Peers. It is a different type of power, though. Castellans, March Wardens, High Ministers, and others.

A long-time mostly Canon organization within the Imperium is the MOJ, the Ministry of Justice. While it *may* intersect with the "OF" Nobles, the list of Sector and Subsector Ministers of Justice probably stands alone most of the time. These are scary people, too. They don't need a war to send big iron after someone, and they likely answer only to the Sector Dukes and Domain Archdukes, being Counts or Dukes themselves.

The fact that they are Counts or Dukes will carry to their offspring, but the Minister position won't. If the family has been around a while, they may have been "OF" Counts at some point in the past and still own land acquired during that period. That's not a fief, though.

 

[rancke]

In that they are not the voice of their world in the Moot, no.

Note that knights and baronets can't be the voice of their world in the Moot as they don't have seats in the Moot. If the seniormost noble of a world is a knight or a baronet, that world apparently does not have a voice in the Moot.

They'll be "ceremonial" or "honor" nobles. The ceremonials might still have an office that goes with their position (as opposed to their Title) and it might even be in extrality territory. The Honor nobles just get a nice set of cufflinks.

Barons and above sit in the Moot. There is no distinction between ceremonial and non-ceremonial nobles in that respect. Honor nobles get their titles for services to the Imperium or by inheriting them from their forebears. Rank nobles get their titles because they've reached a rank that requires a minimum title. Such titles are often lifetime peerages, but when they're not, their children inherit their titles and become honor nobles.

Unless that's changed too.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Mention is made somewhere in canon of the sector moots and domain moots. I find it likely, as Baronets are domain-level nobles, that they would have voice in the local (sector/domain) moots. What authority such bodies have, other than selecting the sector dukes, seems undefined.

 

[rancke]

Mention is made somewhere in canon of the sector moots and domain moots. I find it likely, as Baronets are domain-level nobles, that they would have voice in the local (sector/domain) moots.

That's certainly not impossible. However, if there are, say, 50,000 Imperial peers in the entire Imperium, a full sector would have around 2,500 peers of its own on the average. That's a sizable number of people and depending on how many baronets there are per peer a moot of the size they'd make for may well be considered undesirable.

What authority such bodies have, other than selecting the sector dukes, seems undefined.

From the MgT adventure A Festive Occasion (written by me) we have this description:

"• The Spinward Marches' Senate is an advisory body comprised of all Imperial peers associated with the Marches. It can be summoned at will by the Emperor to advise him on matters of local importance. In addition, once a decade it assembles on Mora, the sector capital, to discuss matters of mutual interest and to compose a formal document known as the State of the Marches Report for the Emperor. Considerable politicking and many hours of committee meetings and plenary sessions during the daytime goes into deciding just what that report does and does not say. In the evenings, Mora's High Society takes the opportunity to hold a succession of glittering parties and balls, and the commoners simultaneously hold a magnificent festival of their own. "​

Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

Are these hexes, outright land grants from the planet to the Imperial Government, and as such, follows the rules of an extra-territorial entity and legality - or are these parcels of land deemed to be under the control directly of the home world government?]

The short answer: within your granted Terrain Hex you are the government. If you're a high level noble you will have a lot of Terrain Hexes and that means you're in charge of a significant chunk of your homeworld.

I think the key to understanding these rules lies on Page 49, under Land Grant Speculation:

The individual to whom the Land Grant is given is legally called the Holder.

A Land Grant differs from ordinary ownership of land; it confers specific rights and privileges on its holder.

The Holder has Economic Control over a Terrain Hex, and Outright Ownership over a Local Hex within that Terrain Hex.

Page 49 continues:

Economic Control is similar to governmental control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the land (and pay rent or taxes).

The "within reason" part leaves open some room for negotiation using established conventions on the planet, current law level and government and so on -- all keeping within the spirit of being a noble in the Imperium, but that terrain hex is yours and you are in charge. You are the government within that Terrain Hex.

Outright Ownership is given very little text, stating only that one Local Hex is approximately 65 square km. In my mind, this is your personal estate, complete with house and grounds and tenants and what have you. Think Duke Etreides' elaborate estate on Caladan from Dune.

Page 96 now has some context:

The first hex in any grant is on the Noble’s homeworld. All subsequent hexes are randomly allocated. For each hex on a mainworld, a noble is also allowed one hex on a nonmainworld in the same system.

The hexes here are Terrain Hexes. So, for every Land Grant you get, the first Terrain Hex of that grant is on your homeworld. The rest are randomly allocated from "the pool" -- that's up to you and your Referee guided by the table on pg. 96, "Noble Land Grants" with "Where?" and "Preferred World" trade codes on which to place the Terrain Hexes in the grant.

For every one of those randomly allocated hexes that ends up on a mainworld, you get another terrain hex on another world in that same system. This is reflected in the "Hexes" column in that table. Notice that if you are a Soc A Gentlemen, you only get the hex on your Homeworld -- but it's still a terrain hex and you're still the government there.

The contents of Terrain Hexes and the 75 Local Hexes within each one will have to be determined by you and your Referee. For that, you go to page 460, "13a Populating Terrain Hexes" and build out your Terrain Hex. You can follow that through to your Local Hex and build out all 75 Single Hexes starting on page 462, "14a Populating Local Hexes."

If you don't want to bother with any of that, you can just get out your calculator and total up the Cr10,000 per TC per Terrain Hex you're going to get each year. For an elevated Duke, his homeworld alone could generate MCr in annual income. That in combination with an assignable proxy value of KCr400 means a hefty personal fortune. Not to mention all that governmental power on your homeworld and other worlds throughout the sector.

 

[aramis]

From the MgT adventure A Festive Occasion (written by me) we have this description:

"• The Spinward Marches' Senate is an advisory body comprised of all Imperial peers associated with the Marches. It can be summoned at will by the Emperor to advise him on matters of local importance. In addition, once a decade it assembles on Mora, the sector capital, to discuss matters of mutual interest and to compose a formal document known as the State of the Marches Report for the Emperor. Considerable politicking and many hours of committee meetings and plenary sessions during the daytime goes into deciding just what that report does and does not say. In the evenings, Mora's High Society takes the opportunity to hold a succession of glittering parties and balls, and the commoners simultaneously hold a magnificent festival of their own. "​

Hans

That's a duty, not an authority.

 

[rancke]

That's a duty, not an authority.

"Advisory body".


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

Hal, I just noticed what I think is a mistake in your understanding of the rule text.

Each hex granted to a noble, has an accompanying "non-mainworld" hex to go with it, so in reality, we're looking at two hexes for the lowest grants on up to 512 hexes (of which 256 are on the mainworld) for an Archduke.

Upon elevation to Archduke, the character would receive:

• 1 Terrain Hex on his/her homeworld
• 255 Terrain Hexes within "one domain" on any world type
• For each of those 255 Terrain Hexes that land on a "mainworld" the Archduke gets another Terrain Hex on a non-mainworld in that same system.

Note that whatever ranks that Archduke elevated through, the grants received are cumulative.

As an example, say you roll a Soc of 12 -- C. At this point you can take the title of Baronet and attend nice parties and such, but your title is an honorific. Your sister or grand-uncle or someone is the one with the real power, and you were born into the family. Fed up with a title and no real power, you opt to enter the Noble career which you may do as a 'c' Baronet. At the end of your first term, you survive your Intrigue and you are Elevated. You are now a 'C' Baron, and you gain the following:

• 1 Terrain Hex on your homeworld
• 3 Terrain Hexes in the same system (preferred Ag or Ri)
• 1 bonus Terrain Hex if one of the Terrain Hexes in your grant is on the mainworld of the system

for a total of up to 5 hexes in your grant. If you go for a second term and again survive your Intrigue and are Elevated you will now be a 'D' Marquis. This is where it gets interesting. In addition to the grants you already hold, you will gain the following:

• 1 Terrain Hex on your homeworld
• 7 Terrain Hexes in the Subsector (preferred pre-Ind)

and for each of those Terrain Hexes that ends up on a mainworld you get another Terrain Hex in the same system on a non-mainworld. For our new Marquis, this means:

• 1 additional Terrain Hex in the same system as his homeworld
• up to 7 additional Terrain Hexes in the same systems as his other grants

all grants would be preferred on pre-Ind worlds. Assuming your homeworld is a mainworld, and depending your campaign map, your total holdings would now be something like:

2 Terrain Hexes on your homeworld
5 Terrain Hexes on non-mainworlds in your homeworld system
7 Terrain Hexes on various worlds in the Subsector

and for each of those 7 Terrain Hexes that land on mainworlds in the Subsector, you get another Terrain Hex on a non-mainworld in the same system.

Our new Marquis could have as many as 21 Terrain Hexes generating 10 KCr per Trade Classification on the worlds on which they reside. Since these worlds had preferred TCs, this could be up to .5 MCr of income.

 

[Original_Carl]

Note that knights and baronets can't be the voice of their world in the Moot as they don't have seats in the Moot. If the seniormost noble of a world is a knight or a baronet, that world apparently does not have a voice in the Moot.

Baronets have a vote. Page 96 in the "Noble Voting Strength" table. You are correct that Knights do not.

 

[rancke]

Baronets have a vote. Page 96 in the "Noble Voting Strength" table. You are correct that Knights do not.

So that's another change then. <sigh>


Hans

 

[Hal]

Hi Carl,
I'm not too concerned with which "player character" holds control over which hexes per se. I'm more concerned with the structure overall. If someone holds actual control over actual hexes (however big those hexes are - are they one km per hex, are they 64 sq kilometers per hex, etc) what is the legal status of those particular hexes. Some are saying "Still part of the world and subject to the laws of the world" while others are saying that it is extraterritorial (much like a star port).

Now for the fun part...

If extraterritorial - what body of laws governs the extraterritorial sections? Are they bound by the same laws of the Captial world itself? Are they bound only by the laws of the holding noble (I find that unlikely, but possible!), some other set of laws?

If it is one of those things that come under the heading of "IMTU", that's one thing. If it is part of the actual structure of T5's official universe, that's another.

Now, note that Han's made a comment that I'm sure speaks volumes - although I don't think he meant it to per se. The comment was "unless they changed that too". The real question that comes to mind is this...

How much does Marc feel constrained by other iterations of Traveller? For example, GURPS TRAVELLER's version of NOBLES was pretty much the only book I've seen that gave an in depth treatment of nobility. Even THAT book however, failed to anticipate Marc's treatment of fiefs in T5 (how could it?!!!). So, the question will arise to the extent of "what is or is not to be deemed legal rules regarding nobility vis a vis T5?

For years, I've wrestled with the meaning of "Imperial Citizen" and all that entails versus the soverienty of homeworlds versus the sovereignty of the Imperial Government. As a consequence, that issues has become more or less an issue decided under the heading of "In My Traveller Universe". I don't have an issue with that, but truth be told - there's the official Traveller Universe, and then there's the Traveller universe that is run by GM's who decide what, if anything, they want to utilize in their own traveller games - automatically making their traveller universe, an offshoot of the Official Traveller Universe. Am I making sense here?

 

[Reban]

The question that is starting to emerge for me is:

How does granting rulership, or at least economic control, of land on planets fit with the Imperium that chiefly concerns itself with ruling the space between stars?

 

[Hal]

The question that is starting to emerge for me is:

How does granting rulership, or at least economic control, of land on planets fit with the Imperium that chiefly concerns itself with ruling the space between stars?

The quick answer is:

You can't rule from the vacuum of space. Man or men if you will, need territory to call a home, and rule from. Imperials need to be loyal to the Imperium itself, not the local government on what ever planet they happen to have their house located, and be subjected to the laws of the rulers as they see fit. The Irridium Throne needs an unshakable way to insure that the Nobles remain loyal to the throne first. Taking a fief away from a noble who wants to keep it, is a rather strong way to motivate someone, wouldn't you agree? Take away the authority that goes with the territory, and the Noble becomes little more than a dirty unbathed commoner living on that world in question

So, that's the quick answer.

 

[aramis]

"Advisory body".


Hans

Still a duty, not an authority.


Authority is the ability to MAKE decisions. Not advise those who do.

"Advisory Body" is about the antithesis of "authority"

 

[rancke]

Still a duty, not an authority.


Authority is the ability to MAKE decisions. Not advise those who do.

"Advisory Body" is about the antithesis of "authority"

Sorry. I thought it would be obvious that I meant to suggest that the designation 'advisory body' implied a profound lack of authority.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Sorry. I thought it would be obvious that I meant to suggest that the designation 'advisory body' implied a profound lack of authority.


Hans

Some advisory bodies do have authority - The Alaska Department of Fish and Game has an advisory council that originally had no authority, but the state legislature then granted it some regulatory authority to back up its advisory role, because its advice was being ignored...

So it's possible domain and sector moots might have some authority.

Then again, canon implies the imperial moot to have more than it's explicitly stated authority (Which is to confirm the new emperor and dissolve the imperium). It's implied strongly to form also the upper eschelon of the executive functions of the administration/bureaucracy.

 

[Reban]

The quick answer is:

You can't rule from the vacuum of space. Man or men if you will, need territory to call a home, and rule from. Imperials need to be loyal to the Imperium itself, not the local government on what ever planet they happen to have their house located, and be subjected to the laws of the rulers as they see fit. The Irridium Throne needs an unshakable way to insure that the Nobles remain loyal to the throne first. Taking a fief away from a noble who wants to keep it, is a rather strong way to motivate someone, wouldn't you agree? Take away the authority that goes with the territory, and the Noble becomes little more than a dirty unbathed commoner living on that world in question

So, that's the quick answer.

I agree with you Hal. IMTU everything belongs to the Imperium, the Imperium allows subsidiary states or World governments to exist to take care of the detail work of governing.

Historically I can't think of many examples of taking away fiefs (except through wars where the fief has to be reconquered) (Maybe I'm too familiar with Western European monarchies? Was it easier to remove fiefs in other systems of rule?) but your example can be turned around or extended to show how worlds are bound to the Imperium.

If the Imperium assigns a Noble to a world, granting him economic control of an area that Noble becomes extremely valuable to the world. A Noble who invests and fosters economic development on a world benefits the over all economy and tech level of a world. It draws a world into the trade that makes up the Imperium's market. In some ways the Noble can be seen as the hook that carries the bait of technology, market access, and protection that is the Imperium.

To keep a good Noble a World would follow the Imperial line. Step out of line and the Noble can cut the flow of investment. Really cause trouble and the Noble either withdraws or uses his lands as a staging point for Imperial forces to launch a regime change campaign.

I'm seeing Land Grants as being in one way like European Union cohesion funding. The EU funds programs in member states (like a Noble's economic investment) to bring all the member states (Imperial Worlds) to a common standard of living (or Tech Level). The quid pro quo is now you have an outsider embedded on your world telling you how the Big Boss wants things done from now on.

 

[rancke]

So it's possible domain and sector moots might have some authority.

Sure. I was mostly just trying to present the available evidence. Which is that the adventure I referred to speaks of the Spinwards Marches Senate as an advisory body that meets once a decade plus when the Emperor asks it for advice. While it is possible that it has some sort of authority too, I have a hard time imagining what it would be. Even the selection of a new sector duke seems likelier a matter of just advicing the Emperor.

Where did you read about domain moots, BTW? Domains have been emasculated for at least half a millenium. What makes you think they have moots in the first place, let along moots with any authority?

Then again, canon implies the imperial moot to have more than it's explicitly stated authority (Which is to confirm the new emperor and dissolve the imperium). It's implied strongly to form also the upper eschelon of the executive functions of the administration/bureaucracy.

It's one possible setup (and a perfectly plausible possibility), but I don't think it's actually implied anywhere. Rather, canon is silent on this as on so many other subjects.


Hans

 

[Bloo]

This is what my MASTER TEXT PDF file says (note that this is NOT the finalized copy, but until I receive my copy, I'm stuck using the playtest materials)

I've yet to find a difference in Penultimate vs Printed/On Disc.

Best thing about the Moot: its name tells you how effective it is generally, i.e., the Moot is moot almost all of the time. Thus, proxies for any administrative stuff. Most representative nobles have no reason to go, which is reasonable considering the 2 year round trip for nobles on the fringes.

 

[Original_Carl]

Hi Carl,
I'm not too concerned with which "player character" holds control over which hexes per se. I'm more concerned with the structure overall. If someone holds actual control over actual hexes (however big those hexes are - are they one km per hex, are they 64 sq kilometers per hex, etc) what is the legal status of those particular hexes. Some are saying "Still part of the world and subject to the laws of the world" while others are saying that it is extraterritorial (much like a star port).

Good Morning, Hal!

(I've always wanted to say that -- big fan of Clark and Kubric's interpretation of his work!)

In my opinion, the book isn't this specific. Again, "Economic Control" and "Outright Ownership" are listed as the two types of rights granted Holders (the recipients of Land Grants).

Economic Control means the Holder is the government (at least the rights are so similar as to be indistinguishable). Could this conflict with the Government and/or Law Level in the UPP for a particular world? Maybe -- if the world were Gov=2 (Participating Democracy) and there was a noble with control of N hexes, that would seem to fly in the face of the UPP.

However, worlds are big places and I see high homogeneity being the exception rather than the rule. In ancient Greece, the Athenians were Gov=2 and the Spartans were Gov=F (Totalitarian Oligarchy) and they were right next door. They traded with one another and even cooperated from time to time.

Now for the fun part...

If extraterritorial - what body of laws governs the extraterritorial sections? Are they bound by the same laws of the Captial world itself? Are they bound only by the laws of the holding noble (I find that unlikely, but possible!), some other set of laws?

If it is one of those things that come under the heading of "IMTU", that's one thing. If it is part of the actual structure of T5's official universe, that's another.

Extraterritoriality (in my opinion) doesn't apply here. The noble isn't a foreign head of state. In my mind, it's akin to asking if the US has the right to make its own laws because it shares the continent with Mexico and Canada.

The IMTU question is a good one, and I think a lot of how this plays out is going to be up to the individual Referees and Players to decide. T5 clearly assigns Economic Control to nobles for the Terrain Hexes in their Land Grants. That means they get to make laws and levy taxes, exploit the land for economic gain and build infrastructure to facilitate that. It also clearly assigns Outright Ownership of a Local Hex to the Holder to use as a personal estate, to exploit for economic gain, or to lease out for some other purpose. On page 50, under the heading "A Title" the rules state:

A Title (Lord, Lady, or a local equivalent) reflecting possession of the land, and the accompanying responsibilities as the final authority to which locals may appeal for the righting of injustice (this authority may be locally delegated).

So there you go. For your Terrain Hex, you are the law, and you can delegate this authority. In your Local Hex, it's yours to do as you wish.

The "within reason" part under Economic Control is sticky, but I think that the authors are trying to convey that just because you hold title to the land you may not necessarily have the support of the people on it.