Fiber Lasers and the Death of Reflec

[kilemall]

I'm sure many of you have been following fiber lasers and therefore implications for our little game.

Fascinating stuff, especially the lack of a need for a big exciter tube, the cooler running allowing for more 'shots' and being able to wrap the fiber up into different shapes then just a tube.

However, in reading this article-

http://www.nature.com/news/military-technology-laser-weapons-get-real-1.17613

I read the killer paragraph- specifically that reflective armor does not work, that the laser hits dust particles, heats those up and burns through anyway.

Okay, perhaps they 'didn't design the reflec correctly', perhaps it's disinformation, but let's say it's true and reflec turns out to be a fantasy.

What does that do to our worlds if reflec is gone?

I can see battlefields turning into looking like a rock concert with lasers and aerosol 'fogs' firing off constantly.

Lasers end up looking pretty good next to the usual ACR/Gauss 'upgrades'.

Ablat ends up being less a 'frontier militia' item and more standard outside of CA/BD.

I have some other ideas about replacement armor, but let's see what you have to say.

 

[atpollard]

Space Shuttle Ceramic tile Technology that spreads out the heat and quickly radiates it to the environment.

And there are other alternative technologies ... reactive chemical coatings that absorb energy and expand ... each hit makes the armor MORE resistant to thermal penetration.

However, isn't reflecting x-rays sort of a magic tech to begin with?
Why would that change?

 

[samuelvss]

We're still at TL7. Reflec is TL10. Our ability to figure out how future technology will work is at best flawed.

If not being able to show or even understand a tech's feasibility 3 TL's before disproves it, then get rid of JDrives, fusion, and grav.

 

[kilemall]

We're still at TL7. Reflec is TL10. Our ability to figure out how future technology will work is at best flawed.

If not being able to show or even understand a tech's feasibility 3 TL's before disproves it, then get rid of JDrives, fusion, and grav.

Easy there cowboy, this is more a mental exercise about gameplay effects then 'we gotta terminate reflec rules'.

Really makes me think we might BE better off without reflec.

Among other things, if it DOES work, shouldn't our starships have the stuff slathered over to deflect starship lasers?

 

[Reban]

Reflec as really shiny mirror armor that reflects laser light doesn't ring true.

But reflec as a very efficient type of Ablat might make more sense.

 

[kilemall]

Reflec as really shiny mirror armor that reflects laser light doesn't ring true.

But reflec as a very efficient type of Ablat might make more sense.

Hmm, does reflec still work with TL13 Xray lasers?

 

[flykiller]

does reflec still work with TL13 Xray lasers?

sure. for about a millisecond.

 

[samuelvss]

Easy there cowboy, this is more a mental exercise about gameplay effects then 'we gotta terminate reflec rules'.

Really makes me think we might BE better off without reflec.

Among other things, if it DOES work, shouldn't our starships have the stuff slathered over to deflect starship lasers?

The science of reflec makes no sense to me, but that puts it good company the the rest of the science fantasy of CT. The gameplay effects are lasers become more effective against anyone wearing reflec. Profound mental exercise.

I feel smarter already, Tex! :rofl:

 

[samuelvss]

However, isn't reflecting x-rays sort of a magic tech to begin with? Why would that change?

Just about anything reflects x-rays. Especially my aluminum foil hat. (Don't get ignorant and call it "tin!")

 

[atpollard]

Just about anything reflects x-rays. Especially my aluminum foil hat. (Don't get ignorant and call it "tin!")

I don't have an x-ray oven, but putting my aluminum foil hat in the microwave oven does not harmlessly reflect the waves and keep my hot dog safe from projected energy beams.

The results tend to be BAD ... very very BAD.

 

[samuelvss]

I don't have an x-ray oven, but putting my aluminum foil hat in the microwave oven does not harmlessly reflect the waves and keep my hot dog safe from projected energy beams.

My wife thinks the microwave is evil, so we are forbidden from using it for anything but storing the crockpot. o:

Reflections are often quite partial, indeed. I don't have it all in front of me, but Striker's approach seemed rational; it had a higher-TL laser at a penetration of 20, at some effective range, and Reflec at an armor value of 10. Clearly a partial reflection (ablation or what you will) (no pun intended).:toast:

If X-rays didn't reflect I wouldn't need a lead apron over my manly hydraulics while getting a tooth X-ray, and there wouldn't be much on the film to look at either. I think that is the only nugget of knowledge to be gleened from this mess: any armor's effects are partial at some level, and total at some other. Any table we devise is merely flawed, fantastical fun.

 

[nobby-w]

...
I read the killer paragraph- specifically that reflective armor does not work, that the laser hits dust particles, heats those up and burns through anyway.
...

Note that reflec in Traveller only has a finite capability - AC10 in Striker. You could infer that it has a certain level of heat resistance while maintaining its reflectivity, but it will break down if you put too much power into it.

So it will reflect up to a point, but it's not 100% efficient. If you fire a sufficiently powerful laser at it the inefficiencies will absorb enough energy for it to break down, allowing the laser to penetrate.

 

[kilemall]

I guess what I mean is do we need Reflec for TL12- lasers and Reflec II for TL13+ lasers?

And what would the advantage be to do away with it entirely?

And why don't we have reflec-coated ships?

Or ablat for that matter?

 

[samuelvss]

I guess what I mean is do we need Reflec for TL12- lasers and Reflec II for TL13+ lasers?

Begs the question of whether it would work any better above TL10. Like a TL15 axe?

And what would the advantage be to do away with it entirely?

We could rewrite the game and pat ourselves on the back for having better make-believe science than the previously extant make-believe science. Also, lasers would be more powerful, so projectile weapons would be relatively less powerful, which would be an advantage because...because....because. :nonono: Because lasers rifles are cooler make-believe science than gauss rifles. Only they're not. Gauss rifles are way cooler.

And why don't we have reflec-coated ships?

Well, assuming that we don't, I assume for the same reason that we do not have flak vest-covered M1 Abrams MBT's: at the level of penetration involved, there is not discernible effect. Plus, no room for the secret :squirrel: sauce inside the chobham... :CoW:

Or ablat for that matter?

Because it doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? I don't know. I assume that the hull itself is ablative. More Ablat equals higher armor. I don't know why Sand does work. It sounds fishy to me. I really am a bit ignorant of how anything above TL7 actually works. I am only generally aware of how my own laptop works. Indeed, I am ignorant of much below TL7, as well. My son's TL3 blacksmithing also eludes me in some of the specifics, for instance (I always get the various types of tempering mixed up). When we get to TL10, let me know how it works.

 

[kilemall]

Begs the question of whether it would work any better above TL10. Like a TL15 axe?

Don't be disrespecting the role of the axe in hightech battle!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWwdtBMuARc

We could rewrite the game and pat ourselves on the back for having better make-believe science than the previously extant make-believe science. Also, lasers would be more powerful, so projectile weapons would be relatively less powerful, which would be an advantage because...because....because. :nonono: Because lasers rifles are cooler make-believe science than gauss rifles. Only they're not. Gauss rifles are way cooler.

Sigh. Yes it is somewhat silly to get worked up over the mechanics of a game that has not a few make-believe advancements.

However, there is a hard science look and feel to Traveller that I think begs the questions I'm asking, if only to be internally consistent about the make-believe. The fiber laser business above suggests that much cooler and smaller or at least flexible lasers will be RL possible, and taking a look at reflec and whether its a good mechanic period is worth a talk, IMO.

Since X-rays are an entirely different wavelength, reflec shouldn't have much effect.

Well, assuming that we don't, I assume for the same reason that we do not have flak vest-covered M1 Abrams MBT's: at the level of penetration involved, there is not discernible effect. Plus, no room for the secret :squirrel: sauce inside the chobham... :CoW:

Hmm, actually if you lay on reflec armor onto the 40 level armor of LBB2/unarmored starships in Striker, it doesn't have an effect. It would have to be a much higher level of reflec to 'work', that's true.

One mechanic I considered is that the reflec doesn't work after just a few missile hits, because the hull is too pitted to reliably reflect.

The second is carbonization on reentries that have to be scrubbed off EVERY time, and finally replacing skin that inevitably gets pitted is EXPENSIVE.

Because it doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? I don't know. I assume that the hull itself is ablative. More Ablat equals higher armor. I don't know why Sand does work. It sounds fishy to me. I really am a bit ignorant of how anything above TL7 actually works. I am only generally aware of how my own laptop works. Indeed, I am ignorant of much below TL7, as well. My son's TL3 blacksmithing also eludes me in some of the specifics, for instance (I always get the various types of tempering mixed up). When we get to TL10, let me know how it works.

I think I will have to get frozen and woken up in the future to fit that criteria.

 

[nobby-w]

I guess what I mean is do we need Reflec for TL12- lasers and Reflec II for TL13+ lasers?

And what would the advantage be to do away with it entirely?

And why don't we have reflec-coated ships?

Or ablat for that matter?

Same as my post above - reflec isn't 100% efficient (i.e. it still absorbs a small portion of the incoming energy). It will break down if you put enough power into it. You could have a reflective coating for ships that might give you (say) 1 or 2 armour factors against lasers. It would, of course, reflect other energy making your ship less stealthy.

You could also put ablative armour on ships or vehicles (and it even gets a drive-by mention in Book 4: Mercenary). I did rules for this sort of thing in Striker at one point, as well as rules for explosive reactive armour and a sort of combo 'spaced ablat' armour that had some effect against energy weapons and HEAT rounds.

 

[kilemall]

Same as my post above - reflec isn't 100% efficient (i.e. it still absorbs a small portion of the incoming energy). It will break down if you put enough power into it. You could have a reflective coating for ships that might give you (say) 1 or 2 armour factors against lasers. It would, of course, reflect other energy making your ship less stealthy.

Well yes, LIDAR or LADAR however you style it would LOVE reflec, probably have to adjust to get the right range since the signature would be higher then 'normal'.

You could also put ablative armour on ships or vehicles (and it even gets a drive-by mention in Book 4: Mercenary). I did rules for this sort of thing in Striker at one point, as well as rules for explosive reactive armour and a sort of combo 'spaced ablat' armour that had some effect against energy weapons and HEAT rounds.

Hmmm, but they didn't follow through in Striker.

A lot of reasons not to do it, most notably higher tonnage/lower manuever/jump ratings, but I'm thinking of having it be a 'surprise' from low-end pirates/scrap fleets.