FFW fleet creation and plotting

[mike wightman]

You can't form a fleet on the map once the game starts.

Any fleet completely destroyed or disbanded has its fleet token removed from the board.

The only way to return a fleet to the board using the rules as written is to do so in the reinforcements box.

Admirals do not carry fleet tokens, fleets are assigned admirals. A fleet doesn't have to have an admiral.

In universe it should take even longer. The destruction of the fleet or its dibandment should be comm lagged, and the orders to incorporate a new fleet also comm lagged.

The meta for this is likely that it is not the same fleet being reconstituted off board, it is more a game balance issue to allow a fleet token back on the board a lot sooner. The sector admiralty is a long way from this quadrant of the Spinward Marches.

As I said upthread, a couple of house rules would be to grant an admiral the authority to form a new fleet in a hex, and or the warrant holder the authority to form a new fleet in a hex.

 

[whartung]

The only way to return a fleet to the board using the rules as written is to do so in the reinforcements box.

That's simply not what the Fleet Adjustment rule on pg 11 says. As quoted before:

When a player has a fleet marker available, it may be brought into play during the fleet adjustment step by removing some or all squadrons from a hex or reinforcement box on the stellar display to the fleet's box on the fleet composition chart and placing the fleet marker in the hex or reinforcement box occupied by these squadrons.

There is no requirement that all squadrons for a new fleet must come from the reinforcement box.

If you have a spare fleet marker, and stack of squadrons floating around in a hex somewhere, take those squadrons, plonk them in the fleet box, and replace the counters in the hex with a fleet marker.

A fleet in play may be disbanded by detaching all of its squadrons. A fleet must be disbanded if all of its squadrons are destroyed in combat. Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step. The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet.

This is the corollary. Take any fleet you want, stuff the counters into a hex, and pull the fleet marker from the board. Next turn, you may use that fleet marker for a new fleet -- anywhere.

Then there's this:

Reinforcement and replacement squadrons are brought into play at the various reinforcement boxes surrounding the stellar display. All squadrons except scout squadrons may enter the stellar display from these boxes only if they are organized as part of a fleet.

Essentially that reinforcement squadrons are just that -- squadrons, and cannot be introduced into the map without being in a fleet. So, you'll need to get a spare fleet marker, somehow, before those ships can move into play.

Its clear, again, that the fleets are a movement mechanic, and that's why they are limited. It's "legal" to do the cheesy thing of churning fleet markers to reset plots, but it's absolutely against the spirit of the game, IMHO.

Unless you can cite the page that limits fleets to the reinforcements box (which I have not found), that's what the rules say.

I think a good house rule is that an in-use Fleet Marker is only made available when two fleets merge, or the fleet is destroyed. Alternatively, the only way to introduce a fleet is to take a free marker, and split an existing fleet (or it's just added through the reinforcements system). This prevents random stacks of ships suddenly self-organizing into a fleet. You could also, maybe, self-organize into a fleet if you have an admiral. That way if you have a stack of stranded ships, and you send it an admiral, then it can organize into a fleet assuming a marker is available.

Mind, the splitting thing can still be cheesed, but it takes a little more work since they have to be in the same hex. "Oh look, I'm splitting Fleet 10, with its 15 ships, into Fleet 10 and Fleet 11. Fleet 11 gets 14 ships, while Fleet 10 gets one, and I get to free plot my 14 ships of Fleet 11"

That when drinks accidentally get spilled on the board.

 

[mike wightman]

The rule is contradicted and overwritten by what comes later... ask where you get the available fleet token from. I think the crucial term is what is meant by a newly available fleet.

"A player may have only a limited number of fleets in play, as determined by his order of battle. When a player has a fleet marker available,* it may be brought into play during the fleet adjustment step by removing some or all squadrons from a hex or reinforcement box on the stellar display to the fleet's box on the fleet composition chart and placing the fleet marker in the hex or reinforcement box occupied by these squadrons.
A fleet in play may be disbanded by detaching all of its squadrons. A fleet must be disbanded if all of its squadrons are destroyed in combat. Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step.**
The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet.***"

* you have the fleet markers from your initial order of battle deployment, you then gain additional fleet markers during reinforcement rules or as a result of disbanding or having a fleet destroyed. Fleet markers are also made available after a fleet has been destroyed or disbanded.
**the removed marker is no longer available this turn, so you can not allocate any squadrons to it
***the removed marker is returned to play the following turn in the reinforcements box, since this is where newly available fleets are formed during the game.

It is not possible to have a fleet marker available that is not in the reinforcements box or already on the stellar display, since fleet markers from reinforcements go to the reinforcements box, and fleet markers destroyed or disbanded are removed from the board.

I think the wording about forming a fleet in a hex is referring to the initial fleets your form at the start of the game. Or there is a missing rule allowing an admiral to carry a fleet marker with no squadrons in it. I can not see how a random collection of squadrons has the authority to declare itself a fleet, without an admiral and/or a warrant.

 

[McPerth]

I think the wording about forming a fleet in a hex is referring to the initial fleets your form at the start of the game. Or there is a missing rule allowing an admiral to carry a fleet marker with no squadrons in it. I can not see how a random collection of squadrons has the authority to declare itself a fleet, without an admiral and/or a warrant.

Well, I read it as Warthung does, and if you have an available fleet you can organize squadrons as one (in the same hex, of course). Even if there's no named aldmiral, sure there's soemone with authority there, your default 5-0 (4-0 for the Zhodani) one.

 

[whartung]

then gain additional fleet markers during reinforcement rules or as a result of disbanding or having a fleet destroyed.

That's the cheesing part right there. That and

removing some or all squadrons from a hex

says you can make a fleet marker by disbanding a fleet, and then create a new fleet out of any squadron(s) in any hex. Since squadrons that are part of a fleet are not in a hex (they're in the fleet box), that's pretty much any stack anywhere on the board.

On Turn X, you can disband a fleet -- this gives you a stack of squadrons abandoned in a hex, and a fleet marker. On turn X+1, after movement, after combat, you can remake a fleet from any stack on the board, and plot its moves. On Turn X + 2, you can move and fight that fleet, and then, immediately after (after combat) disband that fleet and start the whole cycle anew.

Its a 3 turn sequence. It strands the ships for 2 turns, and it's not an "Admiral -0". It's an Admiral 1 (since you have to plot at least one turn ahead).

With that 3 turn cycle, its probably not worth it, but it can make some ships a little more responsive than being paralyzed in a hex for 5 turns after a bad Abort.

 

[mike wightman]

Well, I read it as Warthung does, and if you have an available fleet you can organize squadrons as one (in the same hex, of course). Even if there's no named aldmiral, sure there's soemone with authority there, your default 5-0 (4-0 for the Zhodani) one.

Where do you get an available fleet token?

You get the fleet tokens at the start of the game, you get fleet tokens thereafter to make new fleets in the reinforcement box.

If a fleet is destroyed or disbanded the token is removed from the voard,it is unavailable.

It becomes available next turn in the same way as a new fleet token, ie to make a fleet in the reinforcement box.

 

[McPerth]

You get the fleet tokens at the start of the game, you get fleet tokens thereafter to make new fleets in the reinforcement box.

Where is this said?

It has been long since I last played FFW (in fact, it was the last millenium), so I'm now reading again the rules, but what I find is:

Page 11, right column:

The Stellar Display: Reinforcement and replacement squadrons are brought into play at the various reinforcement boxes surrounding the stellar display.

(bold is original, undelying is mine)

So, Squadrons are placed in the reinforcement boxes, but only the fleets received by the Imperial Player on trun 2 are specifically said to be deployed there, nothing is said about other fleet marquers available (unless I missed another important rule, of course)

And, after all, all the paragraph about forming a new fleet in an hex would be void if avaialble Fleet marquers could only be used in the reinforcement boxes...

 

[McPerth]

(NOTE: all this post assumes available Fleets can be used in any hex, as explained in the former post)

On Turn X, you can disband a fleet -- this gives you a stack of squadrons abandoned in a hex, and a fleet marker. On turn X+1, after movement, after combat, you can remake a fleet from any stack on the board, and plot its moves. On Turn X + 2, you can move and fight that fleet, and then, immediately after (after combat) disband that fleet and start the whole cycle anew.

Its a 3 turn sequence. It strands the ships for 2 turns, and it's not an "Admiral -0". It's an Admiral 1 (since you have to plot at least one turn ahead).

Unless you already have a fleet counter available... If so, you could (with RAW) detach all squadrons and form with them another fleet in the same hex, and plot for it for the next turn...

That's why I suggested to treat newly formed Fleets as if they had aborted, so keeping them in hold for the turns up to the first one the aldmiral allows (but this would be a House Rule, not an interpretation of the written ones).

 

[mike wightman]

Where is this said?

In the reinforcements rule.

It has been long since I last played FFW (in fact, it was the last millenium), so I'm now reading again the rules, but what I find is:

Page 11, right column:


(bold is original, undelying is mine)

So, Squadrons are placed in the reinforcement boxes, but only the fleets received by the Imperial Player on trun 2 are specifically said to be deployed there, nothing is said about other fleet marquers available (unless I missed another important rule, of course)

Where are new fleets formed - in the replacement box.

And, after all, all the paragraph about forming a new fleet in an hex would be void if avaialble Fleet marquers could only be used in the reinforcement boxes...

You need that rule to form your initial fleets at the start of the game, thereafter new fleets are formed up in the reinforcements box.

Note that on turn 2:
"In the reinforcements step of turn 2, the Imperial player randomly selects three fleet markers from the fleet group, three admirals from the admirals group, and three counters from the special group. These reinforcements may be placed in Imperial reinforcements box and/or the Imperial rimward forces box."

They don't just magically appear at a hex on the stellar display.

 

[McPerth]

In the reinforcements rule.

Well, it's true the reeinforcement rules say

Regular Imperial reinforcements are available starting on turn 10 and are placed when they become available in the Imperial reinforcements box.

But also that in page 11 only squadrons are said to enter there... And fleets themselves cannot exist if they have no squadrons...

Nowhere says the new fleets can only be formed in the Reinforcements Box, while in page 11 specifies taht they can be formed in any hex, and does not restrict it to the initial turns.

By interpreting it your way means also no fleet can be split in two, soemthing taht, IMHO, lacks any logic.

 

[mike wightman]

It says:
"Imperial colonial reinforcements are available on turn 6 and are placed in the Imperial rimward forces box. Regular Imperial reinforcements are available starting on turn 10 and are placed when they become available in the Imperial reinforcements box. These reinforcements are divided into six groups: battle squadrons, cruiser squadrons, troop units, fleet markers, admirals, and the special group (containing tanker and assault
carrier squadrons and the warrant).
On each turn starting with turn 10, the Imperial player rolls one die and consults the Imperial reinforcements table. This table specifies the number of battle squadrons, cruiser squadrons, and fleet markers that are available as reinforcements on that turn. Randomly choose the specified number of counters from the appropriate groups.
For example, if the Imperial player rolled a 4, he would select at random three battle squadrons and two cruiser squadrons.
In addition to the die roll, other reinforcements are available. Whenever a fleet appears as a reinforcement, an admiral is selected at random from the admirals group and one counter is selected at random from the special group. All troops in the troops group are available on turn 10, although their actual entry into play depends upon the arrival of squadrons to transport them.
In the reinforcements step of turn 2, the Imperial player randomly selects three fleet markers from the fleet group, three admirals from the admirals group, and three counters from the special group. These reinforcements may be placed in Imperial reinforcements box and/or the Imperial rimward forces box.
The entry of reinforcements from their boxes to the stellar display is described in Rule 3. Note that most reinforcements will not be able to enter the stellar display on the turn they become available due to the requirements of fleet organization and plotting."

Note - the colonial reinforcements available on turn 6 can't move unless you allocate an available fleet token to them, this will either be a token that is available on turn 2, or you will have to disband a fleet the turn before. Alternatively have a fleet that can jump to the reinforcements box on turn 6...

 

[McPerth]

Yes, I've read it, and the only relevant part is

are placed when they become available in the Imperial reinforcements box.

That seems to sustain your understanding of it, but, as said, nowhere says fleets can only be formed in reinforcements boxes once the game is started, while page 11 clearly states they can in hexes.

Note - the colonial reinforcements available on turn 6 can't move unless you allocate an available fleet token to them, this will either be a token that is available on turn 2, or you will have to disband a fleet the turn before. Alternatively have a fleet that can jump to the reinforcements box on turn 6...

According your own view, the boldened part would not work, as those fleets are recieved as the usual reinforcements, and so in the Imperial Reinforcement Box, not in the Imperial Rimward Forces Box...

So you must either allocate there one of the fleets from turn 2, or jump a fleet to retreive them (not necessarly before turn 6, as they will wait until retreived)