FFW fleet creation and plotting

[aza]

Hi CotI,

It's been a while since I posted, but life has meandered around towards Traveller again. I'm starting a game of Fifth Frontier War with my friend and we were wondering about the fleet creation rules. The RAW seem to say that as soon as a fleet is created then the plots are created for it's movement - implying that it can move the next turn.

This seems to create an exploit where a fleet can be dissolved and recreated to change it's plot. You will miss a turn and, it playing with hidden fleet composition, reveal the fleet itself - but it still seems odd that you can do this and I'm concerned that it might break the game. The imperial player could wait until the first turn to create most fleets, so they can be moved on the second turn, lessening the impact of the surprise attack.

On the other hand changing this rule so that new fleets can only create plots according to their plotting number means that reinforcements are potentially sitting around for a long time before coming into the game.

How have those of you that have played FFW handled this?

Aza.

 

[mike wightman]

A newly created fleet can have its movement plotted and move next turn, it has to have its movement plotted for as many turns as the plotting factor as the admiral in command.

Say on turn 17 I get a fleet token and admiral available - I can plot the movement of that fleet for next turn and the turns the admiral's plotting factor requires.

If you disband a fleet then the fleet token goes off board, you can't remake a fleet in that system , you could jump in a different fleet ant assign all squadrons to it.

"A fleet in play may be disbanded by detaching all of its squadrons. A fleet must be disbanded if all of its squadrons are
destroyed in combat. Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step.
The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet"

 

[aza]

Yes, but there is nothing to indicate that the fleet cannot be recreated in the same hex on the next turn - so you would only miss a turn to redo a fleet's plot.In fact, thinking about it now, there is nothing in the rules that explicitly say's you can't create a different fleet in that hex in the same turn. One might interpret the rules you quoted as implying that couldn't happen - but then you might do something like create a new fleet the same hex containing all ships in the old fleet except one scout - disband the fleet of one scout, and off you go on your merry way...

 

[mike wightman]

The fleet marker is removed from the board when you disband it, it then goes to the off board replacement pile.

"Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step"
The fleet marker is now available, but then the rule about how a new fleet is brought into play must be obeyed.

"The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet"

So what do the rules say about a newly available fleet?

They start in the replacement box and plot movement from there.

 

[aza]

No, on page 9 of the rules "When a player has a fleet marker available, it may be bought into play on the fleet adjustment step by removing some or all squadrons from a hex or reinforcement box on the stellar display to the fleet's box on the fleet composition chart" etc. etc.

Your idea might make a good house rule though, as I think the RAW are broken. Have you played this way and it didn't unbalance the game?

My thoughts at the moment are - fleets come into existence in the reinforcement boxes as per RAW but if the fleet goes directly into a hex then it has refuel/hold plots until explicitly plotted movement kicks in according to planning factor.

 

[mike wightman]

Fleet markers are available at the start of the game, on turn two for the Imperial player in the reinforcements box, and thereafter according to the reinforcements rules.

Once you disband a fleet the fleet token is removed from the board, it says so.

"Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step"
The fleet marker is no longer on the board

It is then brought back into play as per the new fleet rule in the reinforcements rule.

"The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet"

In the same manner as a newly available fleet, which means it is placed in the reinforcements box, that is the rule.

 

[mike wightman]

"A player may have only a limited number of fleets in play, as determined by his order of battle. When a player has a fleet marker available,* it may be brought into play during the fleet adjustment step by removing some or all squadrons from a hex or reinforcement box on the stellar display to the fleet's box on the fleet composition chart and placing the fleet marker in the hex or reinforcement box occupied by these squadrons.
A fleet in play may be disbanded by detaching all of its squadrons. A fleet must be disbanded if all of its squadrons are destroyed in combat. Remove the marker of the disbanded fleet from the stellar display during the fleet adjustment step.**
The fleet marker may be brought back into play on any following turn, in the same manner as a newly-available fleet.***"

* you have the fleet markers from your initial order of battle deployment, you then gain additional fleet markers during reinforcement rules or as a result of disbanding or having a fleet destroyed. Fleet markers are also made available after a fleet has been destroyed or disbanded.
**the removed marker is no longer available this turn, so you can not allocate any squadrons to it
***the removed marker is returned to play the following turn in the reinforcements box.

You are house ruling that you can disband a fleet but somehow the marker remains on the board, it doesn't, it is removed, so it can not have squadrons allocated to it until the next turn in the reinforcements box.

 

[aza]

So you don't consider fleets in the reinforcement box to be "available" according to that rule? That's an... interesting interpretation. It does solve the problem I initially proposed though. Have you actually played a game using this interpretation? And it played well?

 

[aza]

Oh - and according to this players can hold back fleets from initial deployment - and these are then the available fleets?

 

[mike wightman]

So you don't consider fleets in the reinforcement box to be "available" according to that rule? That's an... interesting interpretation. It does solve the problem I initially proposed though.

I added the footnote...
"***the removed marker is returned to play the following turn in the reinforcements box."
Once in the reinforcement box it is available, I didn't think I needed to spell it out, I shall edit the earlier post for clarity, sorry about that.

Have you actually played a game using this interpretation? And it played well?

I have played perhaps half a dozen or more games from beginning to end, and several that we started but couldn't get finished. What I have described is how we interpreted the rules from the start, we never considered deliberately disbanding fleets to free up fleet markers, but thinking about it I can see how it may be a useful option.

 

[mike wightman]

Oh - and according to this players can hold back fleets from initial deployment - and these are then the available fleets?

Yes, you don't have to immediately put a fleet into play, you may want to hold it back a few turns to build up the number of squadrons that you can put in it.

One thing we always did was conceal the squadron composition of fleets until battle is joined, the Zho player knows where Imperial fleets are initially deployed, but not the squadrons in those fleets

I would be tempted to house rule assigning a fleet token to an admiral that then moves by xboat, scout squadron or carried by another fleet. The admiral could then activate a fleet in a hex containing squadrons. We did try a variant where the Imperial Warrant allows the admiral that owns it to activate fleet counters within a hex with "loose" squadrons or reassigned squadrons.

 

[aza]

OK yeah I agree with your rule interpretations then! Still leaves me with the original problem. If deliberately disbanding fleets isn't a big part of the game normally then maybe sending then to "fleet purgatory" for a few turns if this happens may be a work around.

 

[Condottiere]

This sort of reminds me of a couple of computer games.

In real life, it would take a while for the reorganized, or new, fleet, to sort itself out.

 

[whartung]

it may be brought into play during the fleet adjustment step by removing some or all squadrons from a hex or reinforcement box on the stellar display to the fleet's box on the fleet composition chart and placing the fleet marker in the hex or reinforcement box occupied by these squadrons.

Sounds like to me that if you have a fleet marker, and a bunch of squadrons in a hex, you can replace those squadrons with a newly formed fleet. Regardless of the reinforcements box.

The purpose of a fleet marker is to act as a game mechanic of control, maneuver, and plotting, that's why they are limited. (vs just jumping ships hither and yon with no organization).

So, if you have a Fleet with 12 squadrons, and you have an extra fleet marker, you should be able to split that fleet into two distinct fleets (say, of 6 each).

Similarly, if you have 2 fleets in the same hex, they should be able to mix and mingle ships. Mechanically, this could happen by disbanding both fleets, sending both fleet markers back to the "available" pile, then reorganizing two new fleets from the ships in the hex.

The "problem" is that fleet composion is not "plotted". And that's where the potential "bug" is about reseting fleet orders.

And the players looks like they need a house rule to prevent them from doing that.

The other mechanic is if you have a bunch of unbound ships in a hex, you can make a new fleet out of them, move them, break down the fleet, and then create new fleet, halfway across the board, in order to maneuver some other ships.

As long as you're not just cycling ships in the same fleet (solely to cheese the plotting mechanic), its probably working as intended. Ideally, you would not want an "empty" fleet, as that cost you a maneuver element that's more when not idle.

I assume ships in a hex will fight even if not in a fleet? or are the penalized? Or are "fleet-less" ships just trapped in their hex? Can you garrison ships in a system without being a fleet?

What should probably happen is you need a leader (an admiral) to have a fleet, it's the Admiral that "makes" it a fleet, the marker is just bookkeeping (and still a mechanic). The admiral has orders and such. And you have to move the admiral to form a new fleet.

But not sure if it works that way.

 

[mike wightman]

OK yeah I agree with your rule interpretations then! Still leaves me with the original problem. If deliberately disbanding fleets isn't a big part of the game normally then maybe sending then to "fleet purgatory" for a few turns if this happens may be a work around.

I can see a tactical advantage to disbanding a fleet that has been severley depleted. Detach whatever squadrons remain and off to the replacement box with the fleet counter.
A turn later you now have a fleet counter a lot closer to the potential action...

 

[mike wightman]

Sounds like to me that if you have a fleet marker, and a bunch of squadrons in a hex, you can replace those squadrons with a newly formed fleet. Regardless of the reinforcements box.

You can reaorganise two fleets in the same hex any way you want, you could asign them all to one fleet counter and send the other fleet counter back to the reinforcements box - IN squadrons can only move around the map if part of a fleet,

The purpose of a fleet marker is to act as a game mechanic of control, maneuver, and plotting, that's why they are limited. (vs just jumping ships hither and yon with no organization).

So, if you have a Fleet with 12 squadrons, and you have an extra fleet marker, you should be able to split that fleet into two distinct fleets (say, of 6 each).

Fleet markers can not move independently of a fleet, you could have only one ship in a fleet though.

Similarly, if you have 2 fleets in the same hex, they should be able to mix and mingle ships. Mechanically, this could happen by disbanding both fleets, sending both fleet markers back to the "available" pile, then reorganizing two new fleets from the ships in the hex.

You would have to retain one fleet marker, so there is a fleet to organise the squadrons around. If you disband a fleet the fleet marker is removed from the game board. Disband both fleets and every squadron in the system is not stuck until a new fleet comes calling.

The "problem" is that fleet composion is not "plotted". And that's where the potential "bug" is about reseting fleet orders.

Movement orders are for the fleet, the fleet composition much match certain parameters, but you are free to reorganise fleets if two or more are present in a system.

And the players looks like they need a house rule to prevent them from doing that.

No house rule is needed, the rules state that a a disbanded fleet counter is removed from the board, but that any amount of squardon organisation is allowed during a turn.

The other mechanic is if you have a bunch of unbound ships in a hex, you can make a new fleet out of them, move them, break down the fleet, and then create new fleet, halfway across the board, in order to maneuver some other ships.

You can't. Only ships part of a fleet can move out of the system they are in. As the Imperial you could send a fleet off to raid Zhodani worlds, only for them to become depleted. You could then free up that fleet counter by leaving the squadrons where they are in that turn by disbanding the fleet, then get a new fleet a turn later but in the replacement box...

As long as you're not just cycling ships in the same fleet (solely to cheese the plotting mechanic), its probably working as intended. Ideally, you would not want an "empty" fleet, as that cost you a maneuver element that's more when not idle.

You can't have an empty fleet, there has to be at least one squadron in it.

I assume ships in a hex will fight even if not in a fleet? or are the penalized? Or are "fleet-less" ships just trapped in their hex? Can you garrison ships in a system without being a fleet?

Yes you can detach ships squadrons to remain in a system. They can fight if the enemy comes calling but can not leave the system until a fleet comes calling and picks them up.

What should probably happen is you need a leader (an admiral) to have a fleet, it's the Admiral that "makes" it a fleet, the marker is just bookkeeping (and still a mechanic). The admiral has orders and such. And you have to move the admiral to form a new fleet.

Fleets don't actually need an admiral counter. Tying the fleet counter to the admiral would be a house rule worth pursuing.

But not sure if it works that way.

There must be house rules out there where it has been tried...

 

[kilemall]

The USN ‘cheated’ then with its alternatively active task forces and assigning the carriers to the current active TF.

Fast Carrier Task Force - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[mike wightman]

The USN can update orders via radio or fly new orders to a fleet.

The Imperial Navy is organised around fleets, with the fleet being the smallest maneuver unit at the scale of this game for the IN.

Allowing independent movement for every squadron is doable, do you really want to plot the movement orders for 8 fleets and a dozen independent raiders? The fastest game we ever completed lasted over a day in hours played, it actually took four days real time.

 

[whartung]

The USN can update orders via radio or fly new orders to a fleet.

Indeed. The singular biggest problem that FFW has to try to manage is trying to orchestrate the fleets with the enormous time delays.

USN doesn't really have that problem.

And the forming of fleets per se isn't the issue, it's the game mechanic of pre-plotting (to simulate the time delays) that get trivialized if you can just reform fleets whimsically so as to reset their order plots.

At the meta level, I think it would be interesting to have 40 players, one who is the Supreme Commander, the others are in charge of their respective fleets, and have each player in their own information bubble, trying to get their heads around what's going on in the sector while trying to actively, and effectively, participate in the wider campaign.

Of course, for many players it would be dreadfully boring. "Yay, I get garrison duty!"

So on a practical level, it wouldn't be very fun I think. But I think the problem is interesting.

I have visions of fleet leaving behind message relay pods that wait for a signal to broadcast their contents. That's how fleets leave breadcrumbs for others to follow as they move through systems. Consider a scout that leaves the fleet to check on a neighboring system, when they jump back, the fleet is gone (or, worse, the system is now occupied). Where did they go? Where does the scout go to find them? Scout could broadcast a coded message, it awakens the message pod, the replies. "Fleet left for Tobia on 1105.247". Can't just have them pinging, the occupiers will just hunt them down.

You could do the game from the Supreme Commanders PoV, sitting on Regina, waiting for data to come it. But then you need somewhat "intelligent" field commanders run by the computer. You don't just want a fleet stuck dead in space, with 5 weeks of comm lag separating you.

But, anyway, I think its an interesting problem.

 

[McPerth]

As Aza, I've always understood you could form a fleet on map, if you have one available, but I've never thought on the loophole he found in the rules...

I guess the best option would be to force some lag time (according the aldmiral, if any, of course) to any newly fleet on the boatd (not the ones coming from reinforcements box). So, if a fleet is formed in Jewell with an aldmiral with a strategic factor of 3, the first two turns of this fleet should be refuel/hold, as if aborted previous plans (3.4,A from rules)

The rationale would be that it takes some time to organize a fleet, while the ones moving from abroad are already so.