Evaluation of Kinunir colonial cruiser on the MONGOOSE High Guard Update 2022

[Spinward Flow]

in CT you needed WSP size hours to reach orbit, so a single hour endurance would clearly not be enough.

If you're using an air/raft (cruising speed 100kph), it is Size Code = hours to reach orbit.
If you're using a speeder (cruising speed 1000kph), it is 1 hour to reach orbit.

So you're correct ... but your answer is also incomplete.

However, with respect to jump capsules, I sincerely doubt that they would be capable of ascent to orbit at (aerodynamic) speeder velocities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

If you're using an air/raft (cruising speed 100kph), it is Size Code = hours to reach orbit.
If you're using a speeder (cruising speed 1000kph), it is 1 hour to reach orbit.

So you're correct ... but your answer is also incomplete.

However, with respect to jump capsules, I sincerely doubt that they would be capable of ascent to orbit at (aerodynamic) speeder velocities.

The LBB3 Speeder has performance consistent with a Striker grav vegicle with 2G acceleration.

 

[mike wightman]

However, with respect to jump capsules, I sincerely doubt that they would be capable of ascent to orbit at (aerodynamic) speeder velocities.

isn't the drop capsule designed to speedily move through an atmosphere? If all it does is drop then its speed is limited to terminal velocity based on its shape. That same shape would make it aerodynamic like the speeder...

 

[Rupert]

isn't the drop capsule designed to speedily move through an atmosphere? If all it does is drop then its speed is limited to terminal velocity based on its shape. That same shape would make it aerodynamic like the speeder...

If it's doing re-entry via aerobraking it'll have a blunt front end. Not conducive to high speeds. Of course it fly ;backwards' when departing for its pickup. But I think generally it'd be flying to a relatively near by pickup point on the ground. Flying back to the launch point is generally going to be useless, because the launching ship won't be there unless the timing is exact (for an orbit) or the ship is hovering (and if it can do that, you don't need drop capsules to land your troops).

 

[McPerth]

or the ship is hovering (and if it can do that, you don't need drop capsules to land your troops).

That has always been my point: with gravitics, you don't need them. They may have some uses, but they are very limited.

 

[RossWinn]

I do recall at some point, maybe it was a CT JTAS article and maybe it was Starship Troopers, that the ablative armor also acted as chaff and decoys. I also do not recall ANY examples of assault capsules being used for return to orbit. Even if possible I think it would take similar times to an air/raft which would be (IIRC) 6-12 hours.

 

[Spinward Flow]

isn't the drop capsule designed to speedily move through an atmosphere?

Examine the assumption underlying your question.

"Because I can go max speed forward ... that means I can also go the same max speed backwards too!"
Now, by way of analogy ... how many vehicles do you expect to be capable of identical max speed/thrust in any and all directions available, regardless of orientation?

With Jump Capsules, you're relying on the notion of "what comes down, must (ipso facto) also go up (the gravity well)!"
Kind of like how parachutes that can enable the descent and soft landing of a payload onto a lithosphere MUST (ipso facto) ALSO be able to be used to LIFT a payload from a surface into a stratosphere (on command)!

If I said ... "that doesn't make any sense" ... would you believe me?
If you don't ... why not?

 

[McPerth]

I also do not recall ANY examples of assault capsules being used for return to orbit.

IIRC in Spaceship Troopers the troops retured to orbit through shuttles, not through the Jump Capsules (but, to be fair, there were no gravitic tech in this setting)

 

[whulorigan]

isn't the drop capsule designed to speedily move through an atmosphere? If all it does is drop then its speed is limited to terminal velocity based on its shape. That same shape would make it aerodynamic like the speeder...

If it's doing re-entry via aerobraking it'll have a blunt front end. Not conducive to high speeds. Of course it fly ;backwards' when departing for its pickup. But I think generally it'd be flying to a relatively near by pickup point on the ground. Flying back to the launch point is generally going to be useless, because the launching ship won't be there unless the timing is exact (for an orbit) or the ship is hovering (and if it can do that, you don't need drop capsules to land your troops).

It is entirely possible that the capsule reconfigures during flight, beginning as aerodynamic to move speedily and then brake by deploying something to reconfigure into a "blunt end" at the appropriate moment.

 

[whulorigan]

I do recall at some point, maybe it was a CT JTAS article and maybe it was Starship Troopers, that the ablative armor also acted as chaff and decoys. I also do not recall ANY examples of assault capsules being used for return to orbit. Even if possible I think it would take similar times to an air/raft which would be (IIRC) 6-12 hours.

My understanding was always that capsules were one-use/disposable. (Or perhaps recoverable and redeployable after maintenance and refitting).

 

[Spinward Flow]

My understanding was always that capsules were one-use/disposable. (Or perhaps recoverable and redeployable after maintenance and refitting).

My assumption (also) was that jump capsules were one use/disposable ... but if there's an opportunity for recovery/reuse, the self-destruct function can be "turned off" and a recovery vehicle can be deployed to collect the jump capsules, refurbish them and put them back into circulation. So the loss rate per use doesn't necessarily have to be 100% (due to self-destruct after delivery of payload), but one use/disposable is the better baseline assumption to make (so recovery and reuse is viewed more like a "bonus" rather than a default).

 

[mike wightman]

Examine the assumption underlying your question.

I have, or I wouldn't have posted it.

"Because I can go max speed forward ... that means I can also go the same max speed backwards too!"

Nowhere do I suggest that. If the drop capsule is streamlined enough to reach terminal velocity coming down than using magical gravitic technology it can achieve the same speed going back up.

Now, by way of analogy ... how many vehicles do you expect to be capable of identical max speed/thrust in any and all directions available, regardless of orientation?

Turn them around perhaps...

With Jump Capsules, you're relying on the notion of "what comes down, must (ipso facto) also go up (the gravity well)!"

No. That is your interpretation of a suggestion I have never made. To clarify. If the drop capsule can achieve terminal velocity and fall from orbit inside an hour, then if you equip it with gravitics it can achieve the same speed if you send it back up after turning it around.

Kind of like how parachutes that can enable the descent and soft landing of a payload onto a lithosphere MUST (ipso facto) ALSO be able to be used to LIFT a payload from a surface into a stratosphere (on command)!

That has nothing to do with a streamlined capsule that relies on gravitics.

If I said ... "that doesn't make any sense" ... would you believe me?
If you don't ... why not?

Because none of what you have written is relevent to what I suggested.

 

[mike wightman]

By the way, just to be clear. I do not think the drop capsule is assumed to have a gravitic motor that allows it to go back up, they are one way drop pods, and totally redundant if you have personal grav belts, grav pods, grav platforms call them what you will.

 

[Enoki]

Agreed, it is detecting the anomaly.

"The scan area contains an artificial gravity field --- no other reading is possible" not really good enough for targeting. Somewhere within the area of affect there is an artificial gravity field, and only out to planetary range.

Actually, it sounds pretty much useless almost all of the time. I suppose some scientist or something could make use of one, but what real purpose would it otherwise serve?

 

[Spinward Flow]

"Because I can go max speed forward ... that means I can also go the same max speed backwards too!"

Nowhere do I suggest that. If the drop capsule is streamlined enough to reach terminal velocity coming down than using magical gravitic technology it can achieve the same speed going back up.

With Jump Capsules, you're relying on the notion of "what comes down, must (ipso facto) also go up (the gravity well)!"

No. That is your interpretation of a suggestion I have never made. To clarify. If the drop capsule can achieve terminal velocity and fall from orbit inside an hour, then if you equip it with gravitics it can achieve the same speed if you send it back up after turning it around.

+ ≠ + ≠ + +

 

[Rupert]

That has always been my point: with gravitics, you don't need them. They may have some uses, but they are very limited.

I mainly meant that if your ship is hovering over one place, you don't need to do a meteoric assault because there's obviously nothing on the ground that can threaten a stationary spaceship, and therefore you can land your troops by ship/shuttle at your leisure.

This is not entirely true, as there'll be situations where people on the ground aren't willing to escalate by shooting at an Imperial Navy ship, but will shoot at shuttles and Marines (not the smartest of moves, but hey).

But overall I don't think even a stealthed, gravitic propelled drop capsule is as good a re-entry means as a stealthed, armoured, etc. assault lander. While the lander does put more eggs in one basket, it's a much more capable basket, and probably doesn't cost as much as a score of capsules, especially as the capsules are only somewhat reusable so they'll have a high replacement rate.

But... drop capsule and PRK equipped orbital assault troops are canon, so when discussing the canon setting we should at least pretend they make some sort of sense. And they are cool.

 

[Rupert]

IIRC in Spaceship Troopers the troops retured to orbit through shuttles, not through the Jump Capsules (but, to be fair, there were no gravitic tech in this setting)

Via shuttles on very tight launch windows, so if you missed your pickup you were left behind.

 

[Rupert]

I have, or I wouldn't have posted it.

Nowhere do I suggest that. If the drop capsule is streamlined enough to reach terminal velocity coming down than using magical gravitic technology it can achieve the same speed going back up.

It will always be streamlined enough to reach terminal velocity, because terminal velocity is the maximum velocity a falling object can reach given it's mass, drag, etc. How streamlined an object is determines what that velocity is (all else being equal).

What you want the thrusters (whatever tech they use) for is to not have to re-enter and fall at terminal velocity. Re-entering at terminal velocity means aero-braking and shedding all your orbital velocity as heat. Hence the use of ablative coatings and a blunt shape for re-entry vehicles (the blunt shape creates a 'bow wave' that keeps the shock wave and most of the heating off the craft's surface, vastly reducing heat transfer).

If you have thrusters of sufficient power and duration (which means the CG thrusters/manoeuvre drives of Traveller or similar - rockets only partially slow you) you can use them to cancel orbital velocity above the atmosphere, and then drop downwards nice and slow, using the thrusters to keep slow enough to not have to worry about frictional heating, and probably also under the speed of sound once the air's dense enough for that to matter so there's not need for special streamlining, etc. Such a drop will be straight down, or nearly so, and should take about 10 minutes over an Earth-like world - actually faster than most aero-braked re-entries (though the total time including losing orbital velocity is probably about the same).

So you have cheap, not-even-a-little-stealthy aero-braked re-entry, or a more expensive system with thrusters, which can be stealthy (assuming that the thrusters aren't un-stealthable - another reason rockets aren't good for this).