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Evaluation of Kinunir colonial cruiser on the MONGOOSE High Guard Update 2022

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magmagmag

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About the Kinunir colonial cruiser, MONGOOSR High Guard Update 2022 says below.
What specific equipment and unit configurations does this text envision?

"The design attempts to serve many missions at once, none well, with 10 marines each assigned for boarding actions, meteoric assault and mechanised deployment plus a four-marine command section on the air/raft, leaving one marine on the ship as a liaison. In practice, it was rare to have immediate use for more than one role at a time, so using a trio of modified ship’s boats that could serve all roles and training the marines for all missions would have been superior".
 
One marine remains onboard, likely on the bridge, and interprets for fire control where the squad below wants the ship's support, fire or otherwise.

If the Marine squads may be concurrently trained and equipped for separate roles, boarding party (uninvited guests), planetary assault capsule (surprise party), and armoured infantry vehicle (loaded for bear).

Ship's boats, can transport a boarding party to another ship, sneak in close enough to drop assault capsules, and squeeze in a ground vehicle in their cargo hold.

I rather doubt placing the command element in an air/raft is a good idea.
 
I cannot understand " using a trio of modified ship’s boats that could serve all roles and training the marines for all missions would have been superior"

What are the 3 ship's boats that could serve all roles?
 
Going by the current design, it's a single forty tonne pinnace, with a gee/carrier and air/raft docked alongside.

I haven't checked, but it's possible that the text was copy pasted from the original design, and so, is somewhat unrelated as to the current design.
 
35 marines
10 trained for space based boarding actions - they man the pinnace
10 trained for armoured warfare - they man the g-carrier
10 trained as drop troops - yes the Kinunir has a drop capsule launcher
4 man command section - they use the air/raft
1 ship based liaison

This is a throwback to the small ship universe of the OTU when a 1,200t Kinunir was a front line warship, and 10 marines in TL15 battledress could take on low TL planetary armies.
 
It seems that the meaning of my question has not been understood.

I fully understand the contents of the CT. What I do not understand is that it is written that "using a trio of modified ship’s boats that could serve all roles and training the marines for all missions would have been superior", but I am unsure about their equipment and unit composition.

a trio of modified ship’s boats?
3 of 30dt modified ship's boats > 1 pinnace, 1 G-carrier and capsule launcher?
 
Last edited:
The Kinunir has 35 Marines with a Pinnace, a G-Carrier, an Air/raft, and some jump capsules:
Skärmavbild 2026-03-22 kl. 12.53.10.pngSkärmavbild 2026-03-22 kl. 12.53.20.png
Skärmavbild 2026-03-22 kl. 12.53.31.png

The suggestion seems to be to be that three identical smaller small craft of ~25 Dt each would have been simpler.


Exact force composition and equipment loadout was at least discussed in CT A1 IIRC.

CT A1 Kinunir, p34-35:
MARINES
_ _The Marine contingent aboard a battle cruiser performs several functions, from interior security troops and the ship's land battle forces, to manning of at least one turret in space combat. The contingent is divided into three squads and a command section, numbering 4 officers, 10 NCOs and 26 enlisted men.
...
_ _Command Section: This section contains the force commander and unit senior NCO, plus two troopers. In on-planet operations, this section is assigned the airlraft A7, driven by the vehicle driver. Battle stations are taken as required.
_ _All members of this section have Combat Rifleman-1 in addition to their other listed skills.
...
_ _First Squad— Boarding Party: This 10-man section is tactically oriented to deep space and vacuum work. It can man the ship's pinnace (with a boarding party, plus provide a pilot and gunner), but generally provides interior security for the ship. Of those individuals marked with asterisks for duty or battle station, two will always be standing guard at the vertical shafts leading to the bridge. The others will be in quarters. Non-asterisked personnel are performing routine duties in quarters or at the pinnace.
_ _All individuals have skills of Combat Rifleman-I, Zero-G-Combat-l , and Vacc-1 in addition to their other skills unless otherwise noted.
...
_ _Second Squad— Jump Troopers: This 10 man squad is intended for free-fall (from orbit) assault of planetary surfaces using individual reentry capsules.
_ _All individuals in this unit have skills of Combat Rifleman-1, Battle Dress-1, and High Energy Weapon-1 in addition to their other skills unless noted otherwise.
...
_ _Third Squad— Grav Troops: This unit is ordinary mechanized marine infantry, transported in a grav armored personnel carrier (APC).
_ _All individuals have skill of Combat Rifleman-1 unless otherwise noted.
Click to expand...

Only the second squad seems to be Battle Dress and FGMP trained.
 
Thank you very much for your various responses.
However, as I have mentioned repeatedly, information about the Kinunir is not necessary. It is written both in CT and Mongoose.

What I want to understand is the meaning regarding the three modified ship's boats that Mongoose says are superior.
Is it correct to understand that having three 30-ton modified boats onboard is considered superior than the Kinunir class?
 
The short version is: ignore the text about the ship's boats.

Long version: it's speculating that if ninety nine tonnes of volume was reallocated to three ship's boats, they could dock two specialized and one generic variants to cater to these three missions.
 
magmagmag said:
What I want to understand is the meaning regarding the three modified ship's boats that Mongoose says are superior.
Is it correct to understand that having three 30-ton modified boats onboard is considered superior than the Kinunir class?
Click to expand...
Presumably three identical boats with three identically trained and equipped squads would be superior to the current three differently trained squads with different equipment.

That would mean that for any task all three squads would be available, instead of only one squad as is the case for the base Kinunir.
 
magmagmag said:
What are the 3 ship's boats that could serve all roles?
Click to expand...
Going out on a limb to suggest that they needed 3 different boats to move all of the men, yet keep the roles of the boat separate. That is, one boat can be for the main line marines, and the other for the command section, perhaps the third for support. Vs one big boat which is less flexible.
 
(As usual) ... I understood the original CT write up in LBB A1 differently.

Yes, there are 3 different squads who are all specialized for different tasks (hostile boarding, mechanized infantry, orbital drops) ... but they're ALL MARINES. That means that the 3 squads can "do" each of those tasking assignments, but there's 1 specialist squad for each of them that is "better" at that role (because they train more intensively for it) than their shipboard peers.

I base that interpretation on the notion of the United States Marine Corps (USMC) that EVERYONE is a rifleman, first and foremost. Therefore, EVERYONE spends time as a "grunt with a gun in a trench" before moving on to their various specialties. Even the marine aviators spend time as infantry first, living in like riflemen, before moving on to flight school for the aircraft they're going to be specializing in.

So it's a bit of an error of the first order to think that marines specialized for a particular role (hostile boarding, mechanized infantry, orbital drops) are completely "incapable" of performing the roles other than their specialty. The marines can do all three roles just fine ... they're "qualified" to perform any of those tasking assignments. However, there are specialist squads who perform each role at "expert" level, rather than just qualified.

So if you've got a hostile boarding action (for example) ... you send in the squad that specializes in that role as the vanguard, but if they need reinforcement(s) then either of the other two squads will be capable of providing that extra "qualified to do the job" manpower (they just won't be as specialized in terms of skills).

The mistake to make here is the idea that the specialization of roles is so complete as to EXCLUDE being able to perform other roles. Just because your squad specializes in mechanized maneuver doesn't mean that you completely "forget" what to do during a boarding operation or an orbital drop by capsule. Instead, you've got 3 squads of "grunts" and each squad has specialists in it for each of the 3 roles, divided up by squad. It's a little bit like have a squad of instructors/experts in each role, who can then share their training/expertise/experience with the other squads who specialize in different tactical contexts. That way, you've always got "3 squads of marines" at your disposal AND 1 of those squads is always a specialist in whatever you need doing (so they take point on whatever the mission is).

It's actually a reasonably elegant solution to the question of how to organize a small detachment of marines aboard ship who can provide "infantry support" regardless of the situational context. You just need to recognize what you're looking at. :unsure:



Then LBB4 came along afterwards and made the "35 personnel shipboard" a non-standard configuration for the organization of personnel. Also doesn't help that the LBB A1 Pinnace is 35 tons instead of the "standard" 40 tons for a (stock) Pinnace, so there's all kinds of weirdness going on with respect to the small craft+vehicle complement.
  • 1x Small Craft
  • 1x GCarrier
  • 1x Air/Raft
  • Drop Capsule Launchers
This is a remarkably versatile set of capabilities for a starship, with regards to the deployment of marines, who can be given a remarkably wide variety of assignments and mission tasking. Infantry are capable of doing things that starship weapons cannot.

Destroy? Starship weapon works just fine.
Capture? You're probably going to want infantry.
Hold? DEFINITELY going to need infantry.
 
Mercenary cruiser's modular cutter might have been a better model.

The module can be exchanged for a specific mission.

In theory, the text might be an observation in hindsight, rather than a serious intent to redesign any existing examples of the Kinunir.
 
What do you think of the comparison below?

///// Kinunir Class ////
1x Small Craft
1x GCarrier
1x Air/Raft
Drop Capsule Launchers for 10 troops
with 10 marines each assigned for boarding actions, meteoric assault and mechanised deployment

///// Superior Plan A /////
3 x Ship’s boats are loaded onto the mother ship (Is the carrying capacity of mother ship sufficient...?)
-Modified ship’s boats for boarding actions (with boarding air/lock)
-Modified ship’s boats for meteoric assault (recovery of troopers)
-Modified ship’s boats for mechanised deployment (2xGCarrier)
Drop Capsule Launchers for 30 troops
with 30 training marines for all missions

///// Superior Plan B /////
Select and deploy one of the following three ships according to the mission.
-Modified ship’s boats 1 for boarding actions (with boarding air/lock)
-Modified ship’s boats 2 for meteoric assault (recovery of troopers)
-Modified ship’s boats 3 for mechanised deployment (2xGCarrier)
Drop Capsule Launchers for 30 troops
with 30 training the marines for all missions
 
mike wightman said:
35 marines
10 trained for space based boarding actions - they man the pinnace
10 trained for armoured warfare - they man the g-carrier
10 trained as drop troops - yes the Kinunir has a drop capsule launcher
4 man command section - they use the air/raft
1 ship based liaison

This is a throwback to the small ship universe of the OTU when a 1,200t Kinunir was a front line warship, and 10 marines in TL15 battledress could take on low TL planetary armies.
Click to expand...
I can't even verbalize how stupid having the entire command element in a single vehicle is.
 
Having been studying more the Russian approach, I'm pretty sure at the platoon level, the platoon commander and the platoon leader ride different vehicles.

Then you divide medic or equivalent, or specialists, up, considering vehicle capacity.
 
magmagmag said:
///// Superior Plan B /////
Select and deploy one of the following three ships according to the mission.
-Modified ship’s boats 1 for boarding actions (with boarding air/lock)
-Modified ship’s boats 2 for meteoric assault (recovery of troopers)
-Modified ship’s boats 3 for mechanised deployment (2xGCarrier)
Drop Capsule Launchers for 30 troops
with 30 training the marines for all missions
Click to expand...
No single point of failure: Don't have specialised small craft.

Capacity isn't enough for 3 Ship's Boats. Use two identical Ship's Boats and some Drop Capsules? A Ship's Boat is plenty large enough unless you want heavy armour.
 
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