Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Interesting as this is, let's try to steer this back Travellerwards.
Ethnic Cleansing
- Thread starter Icosahedron
- Start date
Quite.....
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Oh dear, a lot seems to have happened in this thread since I last looked in, but at least we're still here.
How about this as a refinement of the original question:
We know that many animals have been hunted to extinction, so the extinction of species is certainly possible. However, I'm not aware of a single case where a human ethnic or cultural group has been successfully exterminated to the last man.
Why not? What tends to prevent this from happening, and would those preventions be valid in the case of planetary invasion?
How about this as a refinement of the original question:
We know that many animals have been hunted to extinction, so the extinction of species is certainly possible. However, I'm not aware of a single case where a human ethnic or cultural group has been successfully exterminated to the last man.
Why not? What tends to prevent this from happening, and would those preventions be valid in the case of planetary invasion?
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Unfortunately, I was already halfway through with writing this when y'all decided to call it quits on the sidetracked debate. So think of this as a real-world treatise on how one particular ethnic group was dealt with by a technologically superior culture, and how it might be applied to human-human or human-alien colonial relations among societies of the Far Future.
Furthermore, the "Civilized" tribes of the east were very aware of the the new economic and social structures confronting them, and were furiously attempting to integrate themselves into it at the same time the American governments were doing all they could to drive them off into the wastelands of the west. They learned to read. They Christianized. They adopted elements of European dress, mannerisms, social mores, and even languages into their daily routines. They gave themselves European names, published their own newspapers, and even took African slaves. The more sophisticated of them sent their brightest minds to the law schools of the new American universities, under the theory that English Common Law and American Jurisprudence was meant to be applied to them as well.
And yet, they still got screwed. The Indian-born lawyers of the Cherokee Nation locked horns with the State of Georgia all the way to the US Supreme Court over the matter of their tribal sovereignty -- and they won! And yet, infamously, the US Government on this one occasion decided that the fabled checks-and-balances structure of the Constitution didn't need to be obeyed in this case. A ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States of America was ignored, and the Cherokee were "escorted" at the point of a bayonet out of the lands they had held for generations.
The Dakota 10-20 years later in Minnesota weren't as sophisticated as the Cherokee; but that still didn't prevent them from being remarkably accommodating in the integration and treaty signing department. Over the course of ten years and two treaties, they peacefully signed away nearly every acre of land they called their own in the state to the Federal Government, confined themselves voluntarily to a ridiculously small swath of land along the Minnesota River valley, and agreed to settle down and become good, Christian farmers, all in exchange for promises of sovereignty that were perpetually ignored and annual payments that never seemed to make it into their coffers. And as I pointed out before, it all did them even less good than it did the Cherokee.
So sure, by the time we get to Plains Wars of the 1870's and 1880's the fight was largely reduced to heavily-armed soldiers working to displace angry and obstinate tribes of hunter-gatherers in order to clear the way for high-intensity agriculture. But by then the surviving Indian tribes had all largely realized that there was nothing they could do that would accommodate these people. Extinction was obviously the only thing the encroaching civilization seemed willing to accept from them; when open warfare eventually came, it was only after all other options had been proven ineffective.
Read the Indian Removal Act of 1830, and President Andrew Jackson's address to Congress regarding the Indian Removal Act of 1830. He couches it in pretty flowery language; but it's pretty clear that his intention is to get every Indian in the country as far away from any white person as possible. You seemed to indicate that you did not believe there was a stated US policy regarding the ethnic cleansing of the Indian tribes. The above links are concrete examples of exactly such specific US policy regarding the removal of the Indian tribes from their native lands.
But that's not really how it was at all, especially in regards to the eastern tribes. The Indian tribes that the earliest European settlers stumbled upon were established and sophisticated town-based agricultural societies, not neolithic nomads living off grubs and berries. A huge chunk of the modern food supply exists because of the multi-generational genetic engineering efforts of these Indian tribes. No less authority than the US Government asserts that the powerful Iroquois Confederacy served as a primary source for the structure and traditions of the American Federal Constitutional system.
Furthermore, the "Civilized" tribes of the east were very aware of the the new economic and social structures confronting them, and were furiously attempting to integrate themselves into it at the same time the American governments were doing all they could to drive them off into the wastelands of the west. They learned to read. They Christianized. They adopted elements of European dress, mannerisms, social mores, and even languages into their daily routines. They gave themselves European names, published their own newspapers, and even took African slaves. The more sophisticated of them sent their brightest minds to the law schools of the new American universities, under the theory that English Common Law and American Jurisprudence was meant to be applied to them as well.
And yet, they still got screwed. The Indian-born lawyers of the Cherokee Nation locked horns with the State of Georgia all the way to the US Supreme Court over the matter of their tribal sovereignty -- and they won! And yet, infamously, the US Government on this one occasion decided that the fabled checks-and-balances structure of the Constitution didn't need to be obeyed in this case. A ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States of America was ignored, and the Cherokee were "escorted" at the point of a bayonet out of the lands they had held for generations.
The Dakota 10-20 years later in Minnesota weren't as sophisticated as the Cherokee; but that still didn't prevent them from being remarkably accommodating in the integration and treaty signing department. Over the course of ten years and two treaties, they peacefully signed away nearly every acre of land they called their own in the state to the Federal Government, confined themselves voluntarily to a ridiculously small swath of land along the Minnesota River valley, and agreed to settle down and become good, Christian farmers, all in exchange for promises of sovereignty that were perpetually ignored and annual payments that never seemed to make it into their coffers. And as I pointed out before, it all did them even less good than it did the Cherokee.
So sure, by the time we get to Plains Wars of the 1870's and 1880's the fight was largely reduced to heavily-armed soldiers working to displace angry and obstinate tribes of hunter-gatherers in order to clear the way for high-intensity agriculture. But by then the surviving Indian tribes had all largely realized that there was nothing they could do that would accommodate these people. Extinction was obviously the only thing the encroaching civilization seemed willing to accept from them; when open warfare eventually came, it was only after all other options had been proven ineffective.
Well, the ranchers never really became extinct; they just stopped letting their cattle wander all over the continent loading up on free government grass. The Indians, on the other hand, starved to death when the buffalo disappeared, and were reduced for generations to pathetic remnants living off ragged blankets and moldy government handouts. So desperately did the Plains Indians yearn for their lost buffalo that they created an entire messianic religion around an apocalypse that preached, among other things, the return of the buffalo from their underworld exile. The Plains Indian reservations of the Dakotas of today are effectively Third World nations embedded inside the framework of the United States of America. In a very real sense, these tribes have never recovered from the socio-ecological blow of the near-extinction of the American Bison.
I'm actually not as pro-Indian as you might think. My objection to your points are not visceral, but rather historical, in context.
Read the Indian Removal Act of 1830, and President Andrew Jackson's address to Congress regarding the Indian Removal Act of 1830. He couches it in pretty flowery language; but it's pretty clear that his intention is to get every Indian in the country as far away from any white person as possible. You seemed to indicate that you did not believe there was a stated US policy regarding the ethnic cleansing of the Indian tribes. The above links are concrete examples of exactly such specific US policy regarding the removal of the Indian tribes from their native lands.
Unfortunately there are a number of such cases, but I am now somewhat re-
luctant to name the examples, because I do not want to return to the other
part of the debate on this thread. However, I have no doubt that it would
be quite easy to find other examples - Australia and the Caribbean come to
my mind.
In all the cases I know, the victims were very small ethnic or cultural groups,
with no more than a few hundred members at the most, and usually with a
rather specialized subsistence economy.
However, much larger cultural groups have also been exterminated, not phy-
sically, but through the destruction of their culture - usually beginning with
the destruction of the oral traditions (by killing the shamans and elders), fol-
lowed by the destruction of their language (by forcing children to visit state
schools where the use of their native language was punished). Once a cul-
tural group has lost its past (= traditions) and its language (which usually is
connected with a unique way of seeing the world and thinking about it), it
soon ceases to exist as a cultural group.
A fascinating example are the Guanches of the Canary Islands. Until very re-
cently the people living on these islands were convinced that the Guanches
had been exterminated, and that they are the descendants of Spaniards on-
ly. And now genetic research seems to show that they are far more Guan-
ches than Spaniards - without ever knowing it. Their ancestors' cultural he-
ritage had been destroyed almost completely, and then been replaced by the
Spanish culture.
@ G. Kashkanun Anderson:
You are doubtless right with what you write, but there really are other elements
to the entire sad story, too. One example is the fact that in 1776 many of the
eastern tribes made the mistake to side with the British and fought against the
Rebels, which became both a reason and a welcome excuse for a campaign
against them.
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Retaliation from Outside is the main reason I see in history. Somebody sticks up for the people being cleansed. Unfortunately, and even President Bush pointed this out when he went to Israel, the U.S. didn't join World War II to help the Jews and others being interned/exterminated. FDR was trying to stay out of it or at least look neutral until Pearl Harbor.
The other reason is Insurrection/Infiltration/Sabotage from Inside. The whole 'Love Thy Enemy' at least until you learn all of their dirty tricks thing. Something I haven't seen too much of in history. But then, who would write about it?
It happened. Arminius, who organized the destruction of Varus' three legions
and thus secured Germany's freedom from the Roman Empire in 9 A.D., ser-
ved as a high-ranking officer in the Roman army, claimed to be Varus' best
friend, invented a fake uprising to draw the Romans into territory he con-
trolled, and there had Varus and his 20,000 legionaries slaughtered.
That's one heck of a stab in the back. I'll have to remember that one.
:devil:
Peaceful negotiations only work if the intention isn't extermination, but here's the page for Mahatma Gandhi if you want to look at peaceful solutions. Martin Luther King, Jr. is another one to look at. Especially at a crucial time in history where two 'races' did end up eventually finding peaceful co-existence. For the most part. Depending on the day...
:devil:
Peaceful negotiations only work if the intention isn't extermination, but here's the page for Mahatma Gandhi if you want to look at peaceful solutions. Martin Luther King, Jr. is another one to look at. Especially at a crucial time in history where two 'races' did end up eventually finding peaceful co-existence. For the most part. Depending on the day...
Yep, the Romans were so shocked that they established a border along Da-
nube and Rhine and never again attempted to occupy the German territory
beyond those rivers.
I think the lessons for would-be conquerors, ethnic cleansers and thelike are
obvious: Never trust your intended victims, never use native auxiliaries (it
may work for a while, but you provide training to the enemy).
By the way, while Gandhi developed a peaceful way to end occupation, this
is the one thing he has in common with Arminius: He got his training (Gandhi
as a law student in Britain) from the ones he intended to defeat.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Yeah, Arminius is also known as "Hermann the German" to us English speakers. There's a gigantic statue of him overlooking the town of New Ulm, MN (remarkably similar in size and scope to the more famous one that looms over the Teutoberg Forest today), and the town of Hermann, MO is named after him.
The American statue was commissioned by a German-American fraternal society called the Sons of Hermann, and was designated by Congress in 2000 as the official symbol of all things German-American. The Sons of Hermann are still around; but I think they mostly just sell insurance these days.
Next year is the 2000-year anniversary of the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest! Both Germany and the New Ulmers are planning some pretty big celebrations honoring it.
The Underdog-as-Trickster figure usually gets pretty good historical press, actually (provided he's successful). Roman historians had more than a grudging admiration for Arminius' actions, despite the fact that he wiped out three of their Roman legions. The fictional Br'er Rabbit is another admired character arising out of similar social circumstances.
In the Traveller sense, I bet the Vargr in particular have vast amounts of literature devoted to mythological and historical figures of this stripe.
Besides a broad range of American Indian tribes that have vanished without a trace, I can think of a number of other examples extinct human cultures throughout history:
Going back further in history, there is the extinction of the Neanderthals in Europe to consider. We don't know exactly how or why it happened; but having occurred as recently as 20-25,000 years ago almost places it within the realm of historic recollection.
The American statue was commissioned by a German-American fraternal society called the Sons of Hermann, and was designated by Congress in 2000 as the official symbol of all things German-American. The Sons of Hermann are still around; but I think they mostly just sell insurance these days.
Next year is the 2000-year anniversary of the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest! Both Germany and the New Ulmers are planning some pretty big celebrations honoring it.
Spinward Scout said:
The Underdog-as-Trickster figure usually gets pretty good historical press, actually (provided he's successful). Roman historians had more than a grudging admiration for Arminius' actions, despite the fact that he wiped out three of their Roman legions. The fictional Br'er Rabbit is another admired character arising out of similar social circumstances.
In the Traveller sense, I bet the Vargr in particular have vast amounts of literature devoted to mythological and historical figures of this stripe.
They usually don't get outright exterminated so much as overwhelmed by their more powerful neighbors and diluted by outside intermarriage -- circumstances which almost certainly would not apply in the case of two or more competing alien biologies.Icosahedron said:
Besides a broad range of American Indian tribes that have vanished without a trace, I can think of a number of other examples extinct human cultures throughout history:
- Etruscans (Italy)
- Philistines (Israel/Levant)
- Carthaginians (North Africa)
- Pelasgians (Greece)
- Picts (Northern England/Scotland)
Going back further in history, there is the extinction of the Neanderthals in Europe to consider. We don't know exactly how or why it happened; but having occurred as recently as 20-25,000 years ago almost places it within the realm of historic recollection.
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
The Sumerians disappeared without a trace as well.
But in many of these cases we have trouble distinguishing what occurred through genocide and what occurred through "cultural genocide," intermarriage and the like.
In the 3I, and indeed the ZS and possibly the ROM there must be more than a few cases where "Imperial" culture overwhelms the local one, due to some combination of migration, intermarriage and popular media.
But in many of these cases we have trouble distinguishing what occurred through genocide and what occurred through "cultural genocide," intermarriage and the like.
In the 3I, and indeed the ZS and possibly the ROM there must be more than a few cases where "Imperial" culture overwhelms the local one, due to some combination of migration, intermarriage and popular media.
