• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Dropping Rocks from Orbit, A Seeker vs. a TL 7-8 (or less) nation

V

vutpakdi

SOC-13
Another idea vaguely related to a current game and relevant to campaigns set in the Long Night or the Virus eras: how effective is a single Type J Seeker in cowing a TL 8 (or less nation) from orbit by just dropping mined asteroids from orbit?

I would imagine that, unless the TL 7-8 nation has higher tech weapons, the single Type J Seeker would be pretty effective at attacking the nation with impunity by mining large chunks of ore from the asteroid belt, going to the planetary orbitals, and then carefully pushing the ore chunks so that they drop out of orbit and land on the nation's cities until the government surrenders. The Seeker might miss fairly often and might need a special brace on its snout to help push the ore onto the right coarse, but there probably wouldn't be much the TL 7-8 nation could do about the falling rocks.

Put another way, if some wandering ship appeared in our solar system tomorrow and started dropping rocks on Earth high orbitals, there wouldn't be much we could do about it except possibly getting nukes aloft on a shuttle.

If the above idea works in the TNE/Virus setting, even the smallest of Virus controlled ships could easily "control through threat of imminent destruction" (or at least cow) planetary systems without high tech weapons.

What do you think?

Ron
 
I'm there, dude. Lets start building seekers; I can think of a few world-nations we can drop rocks on!
 
The only problem is the orbitting and final rock de-orbit burn. You would be vulnerable to planet launched ICBMs or airplane launched anti-satellite missiles. The US has got both, and this is on a planet that has no interstellar contact.

Traveller TL7/8 worlds would have greater space going facilities. There is trade / military threat and they know it can be done. They would have primitive SDBs, orbital interceptors etc. afterall they know pirates etc exist.

These could see off your seeker. However in a Long Night / TNE scenario, these space defences may have been used up / left to rot

Cheers
Richard
 
Reminds me of Charlie Brown on Halloween: "All I got was a rock."
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Ron, I might direct ye to the discussion that took place a while ago on these boards, RADM Bachfisch/ aka Darth Sillyus and I have perfected the Soleean navy mag lev mass projector weapon, for planetary suppression.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000021;p=4

this topic opened in August 2002, so ye may find some answers backtracking!
Click to expand...
Ah well, so I'm late to the game... ;) Thanks for the reference!

Ron
 
Me...I kinda like dropping LARGE ROCKS, HUGHE ROCKS on peoples heads, especially when there mean to Trader Jim and when they have no defence. Thats when i sell them a very expensive defence system.......hhhhmmmmnnnn sounds like a Win Win situation!!! :D :eek:
file_22.gif
 
Originally posted by trader jim:
Me...I kinda like dropping LARGE ROCKS, HUGHE ROCKS on peoples heads, especially when there mean to Trader Jim and when they have no defence. Thats when i sell them a very expensive defence system.......hhhhmmmmnnnn sounds like a Win Win situation!!! :D :eek:
file_22.gif
Click to expand...
_________________________________________________
In our case, "shooting" a 684kg projectile, which loses 100kg of shielding to unleash its prepacked ordinance (rocks/ crowbars, etc) at speeds of a muzzle velocity of 6km (6000m)/ second.

Sounds like ye'd need a very expensive defensive system, or space Ftrs to engage the ships equipped to fire these. which, in TNE era, are as scarce as chicken lips, Jimbo.
 
What about big cargo containers fired from large mass drivers - see the novel Moon is a Harsh Mistress or the Bowman campaign pack. That was a TL9 asteroid system with no decent planets and a population level of about 3, and there was a least 6 large scale mass drivers.

How dou you stop a rock 20ft in diamter and at least that long.something the size of a launch or ships boat?

Cheers
Richard
 
Originally posted by RichardP:
What about big cargo containers fired from large mass drivers - see the novel Moon is a Harsh Mistress or the Bowman campaign pack. That was a TL9 asteroid system with no decent planets and a population level of about 3, and there was a least 6 large scale mass drivers.

Aye Bowman works!(I do have beltstrike, btw richardP!
file_23.gif
)

How dou you stop a rock 20ft in diamter and at least that long.something the size of a launch or ships boat?Cheers, ichard
Click to expand...
And at TL-8 the maglev projector is hgurlin it at 4000m (4km) a second. No heat signature-just a fast moving blip on Activer sensors!
 
Depends where the launcher is / what it was designed for. If the mass driver is designed to fire from a space station or a small moon, it might have a low speed - just enough to escape gravity, and the rocks could take months to get from the outer system to the mainworld, or at least a day from say the moon to earth.

But even if you detect it how do you stop it. Lasers, even a nuke detonation laser will just drill holes in it. Anti aircraft interceptor missiles even with nuke warheads will be set for prximity detonation (better kill chance against missiles or aircraft or assault landers). This will just give the rock a shove to one side.

Only a direct nuke hit or may be a meson blast centred inside the rock would break it up. Thats okay if you are in somewhere like norad, but a city would still experience a lot of damage from the falling and now radioactive bits.

Cheers
Richard
 
A seeker was meantioned.

We shall assume the seeker can release 2, 7 ton projectiles by opening the ore bay and moving the ship away from the rock. For a good run up, accellerate at 2 Gs for an hour before release, for a final velocity of 72 Km/sec. Release can be a nice safe, 100,000 Km (20 minutes) away.
Each rock represents 0.5 * 7,000 * 72,000^2, or 1.8E13 joules, or 4.3 kilotons.

If these are light, porous rocks like chondrites these will explode in the upper atmosphere and the EMP will wipe out sensitive electronics uo to 1000 km away.

Drop a fifteen ton iron bar and it will explode against bedrock with the violence of the hiroshima bomb.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:

If these are light, porous rocks like chondrites these will explode in the upper atmosphere and the EMP will wipe out sensitive electronics uo to 1000 km away.
Click to expand...
Why would you get EMP from a rock? AIUI, nuclear detonations produce EMP as a result of gamma radiation from a nuclear blast kicking lose Compton electrons from air molecules, which in turn produce a cascade of additional electrons. A simple rock won't produce that effect, or at least not so dramatically.
 
UNCLE BOB: Using a seeker is definitely cheaper. My method, perhaps more accurate. But unshielded electronics on TL-4-8 worlds will get fried!


RichardP: Precisely my point to TJ-so ya know its comin? How do ya stop it unless ye stop the ship bringing it?

RADM Bachfisch(Drath Sillyus), methinks we have made a winner. RCES..look out!
file_23.gif
toast.gif
 
If you want to see how a TL7/8 world can fight off a rock-dropping starfaring TL10-ish attacker, you could do no better than read Footfall (Niven & Pournelle)

Basically, any superior TL attacker who thinks they can cow an entire WORLD (with all of its money and resources dedicated to defending itself) can get overconfident.

To put it in other timeframes, compare these TL2 cultures and their TL5 attackers
Zulus & British at Isandlwhana
Sioux & US Cavalry at Little Big Horn
Manchurians vs Russians in 1933

In all of these cases, the superior TL culture won IN THE END, but only because they could draw heavily upon their home nations' huge resources.

The low tech cultures can inflict huge damage in a one-off.
One starship could easily fall victim to a single well planned concerted attack - and after all, the Seeker crew are after money (blackmail? protection racket? whatwever) while the planetary population are fighting for their lives. The Attackers may even inadvertently spur their 'victims' into the next TL!

"Do not despise the snake for having no horns, for who is to say it will not grow into a drahon?"
 
Have them. Have read them. Enjoyed it.
But from the ground, planet bound, how do you stop them? There's the rub, Ghunkogoe!
;) What if this was a vampire ship, and all it wanted to do was keep the Organics planetbound- say bomb their factories and population centres, and move along?
toast.gif
And had No interest in landing! :eek:
file_23.gif
 
If you're TL6+ you won't STAY planetbound for long, if you're being bombed by an attacker in orbit.

Being attacked tends to ramp up technological development faster than anything.

Consider, Germany went from TL5 in 1933, to 5.5 in 1944 and to TL7 in many fields by 1945 - it was only once on the defensive that their rate of tech improvement rocketed (if you'll excuse the pun)

As for a Vampire ship bombing production centres - ever heard of CERN? How are they going to bomb a 23 mile partical accelerator under the Swiss Alps? What if the chaps there can 'open end' it and fire the beam of near c-speed particles at the Seeker?

And how long before some bright spark suggests using some of our radio telescopes to refract and focus solar radiation at the attacker? It'd be a bit like frying ants with a magnifying glass, I'd guess!

As I said, don't underestimate the desperation and inspiration of a people under attack.
 
Originally posted by Ghunkugoe:
If you're TL6+ you won't STAY planetbound for long, if you're being bombed by an attacker in orbit.

Being attacked tends to ramp up technological development faster than anything.

Consider, Germany went from TL5 in 1933, to 5.5 in 1944 and to TL7 in many fields by 1945 - it was only once on the defensive that their rate of tech improvement rocketed (if you'll excuse the pun)
__________________________________________________
PUN accepted! :D ;) . Yes, I am aware of that. I am also aware that they lost the war, thanks to inavsion, and bombing "round the clock". Consider that(touche')!Riposte!
__________________________________________________
As for a Vampire ship bombing production centres - ever heard of CERN? How are they going to bomb a 23 mile partical accelerator under the Swiss Alps? What if the chaps there can 'open end' it and fire the beam of near c-speed particles at the Seeker?

And how long before some bright spark suggests using some of our radio telescopes to refract and focus solar radiation at the attacker? It'd be a bit like frying ants with a magnifying glass, I'd guess!

As I said, don't underestimate the desperation and inspiration of a people under attack.
Click to expand...
_________________________________________________
TL-7 & 8 have a better chance at defending themselves than TL-6 or less (better rockets/ better rqadars, etc). Of course, I am using MT Tech levels in my argument. And you speak of terran ingenuity here-and a pop 9 owrld. A low pop world, with low tech doesn't have the time nor base of knowledge always at hand to utilize a good idea. Populations of 4 or less, are gonna be flattened before they can "bring the fight back to the orbital enemy".
Still, its quite another for a world that has lost the knowledge to get back into space, due to the collapse/ or long Night...what have you.

Here's another idea Ghunkogoe! Why would they bomb this way in the first place?

Terror?Sheer perversity (ie-cuz we can?)
Mass destruction/ crippling an enemy
Possible invasion prep?-leads to yer local resistance getting their chance to square the field.
Or, "keep them in their place" (planetbound).
Or maybe-the enemy has a weakness-missile technology, and resorts to the cheapest weapon available(asteroids) to achieve the same results!

then again, I am a TNE-forward looking fellow.
Nice chattin so far! your turn!
 
Does Traveller have gravitic mass drivers, like David Weber's Honor Harrington does? Use one to accelerate a rock to 0.999c and watch the fireworks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top