Does your 3I use political tricks in governing?

[Garyius2003]

Fast Backgound–presented as explanation, not as invite for real ife political debate:

Here in America we have been starting to defer our law making to federal agencies for whatever reason.

One of those laws that got deferred down is the rules for National Parks. The rules just changed, through a formal agency system, to allow holders of State Concealed Carry permits to carry their pistols in the park.

One of the rules for changing the rules is that environmental impacts must be studied, if there is a chance of an impact on the environment.

The course of the study once filed is that litigation will ensue for years, as each environmental group can argue about the scope of the study, the study methods, and the conclusions.

Some groups in American society don’t like guns, so they decided to block the new rule. Since there weren’t any good ways to do it, they were able to file a case before a liberal judge, and she ruled that a environment study needs to be done because the pistol may be used for defense against an animal which would change the environment.

Whatever your feelings on the core matter, her ruling is laughable on a logic and legal basis. By making the ruling, though, she gives the new president the chance to drop the new rule by not doing the study, and banning the pistols.

3I question:

In your 3I, is there room for this sort of gamesmenship? I play as an Empire of Men, rather than Laws, where the 3I is good for trade and defense and not caring much about the planets, so my 3I has never gotten to this level. The local (duke/count) may decide to overreact or keep studying something, or decide something one way or the other, but I have never tried to go for a full bore 1984 style ‘war is peace, A equals not A’ type of government. I did have a noble involved with a local government and megacorp to relocate an ethnic people and steal their land, but the noble and mega were involved in a criminal sense and would have been punished if caught.

I do feel strongly on one side of the underlying debate–but I also am impressed by the bold faced nature of the political trick and how it is working. I have been trying to think on how to use a system like the US for the 3I, but the only thing I can think of is a dark Imperium.

Does anyone have examples of a good or even gray 3I that uses this type of odd law making/governing?

 

[savage]

sure

The emperor has game preserves...etc to protect various environments. I think it depends on the system for example CORE may protect what little natural resources are left.

Then again you have WWII where all bets we're off and the US military took what was needed to win. Same with the 3I wars and rebellion.

 

[Whipsnade]

Garyius2003,

While your real world example of political "trickery" will most likely cause this thread to end up in the Pit, I can say that the Third Imperium IMTU does use such "trickery" and that any human government or other social organization in the history of our species has, does, and will use such "trickey" also.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Garyius2003]

Have you used it in a good or gray Imperium? All my ideas have gone stright into the gutter.

 

[Whipsnade]

Have you used it in a good or gray Imperium? All my ideas have gone stright into the gutter.

Garyius2003,

Good, gray, or evil is merely a matter of intent, the act itself has no moral value.

What we're talking about here is "hacking" a political or legal system so that you can produce results that the creators of that system didn't envision. If you hack the system for a "good" purpose, then you're good. If you hack the system for an "evil" purpose, then you're evil.

Of course, just what constitutes good and evil is nearly entirely subjective and varies in time and place.

Mr. Miller prefers that the Third Imperium of the OTU be generally good. He owns it so it is his call. Mr. Miller is also adult enough to realize that sometimes a good polity must be bad, he'd just rather not hear about those times if you please.

IMTU, the Third Imperium is colored in infinite shades of grey. In my opinion, the movers and shakers of the Imperium are hard headed pragmatists. They are few in number, relatively scarce in resources, and surrounded by an ever shifting cast of enemies within and without. Their continual efforts in keeping the lid on most resembles Sisyphus rolling his rock.

Every hi-pop member world within the Imperium is a pocket empire in waiting. Every subsector, sector, and domain is a potential empire too. The first act taken by any of those nascent empires would be interstellar war, something the Third Imperium's movers and shakers never forget. Look at the Hard Times or Viral settings and remember they are the nightmare that the movers and shakers of the Third Imperium fought against for over a thousand years.

IMTU, the Third Imperium is as good as it can be, as bad as it must be, as strong as it needs to be, and as weak as it can get away with.

IMTU, the movers and shakers of the Third Imperium would very much like to govern nobly in accordance with high ideals. They always haven't that luxury however as they rarely have the resources, the time, and the information required. How often they hack the system and how blatant those hacks are all depend on the needs of the moment. They're well aware of the long term deleterious effects of those hacks, but most times they also have little choice in the matter.

Hope this nonsense helps.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Kilgs]

I don't think "gamesmanship" or "trick" is a proper way to describe what happened. A federal judge ruled on an administrative agency's proper authority, based on enumerated rules and enabling authority. It's not a trick. It's the law. Irritating, full of loopholes, written by idiots, enacted by dimwits and executed by morons as every law since Babylon has been...

I like to portray the 3I from both angles. I think, from a planetary perspective, the 3I is a rugged frontierish Empire of Men. But in the subsector Duke's Court? Or Sector Duke's Court? Absolutely. This type of crap will always go on.

The difference is that the Imperium is feudal and the chief noble has the say (except for the Emperor). So, I, Duke Kilgs have a nasty issue in front of me. It's unpopular on both sides of the issues. Do I make a decision and possibly start riots? Or do I "defer to the judicial process" and let it languish for years...

It's another tool of the Noble-Ruler. And, if the courts don't do anything and it kicks into war/deprovation, I send in the Marines and take over the dang place, kicking out all the other idiots.

God save the Emperor!

EDIT:

Just saw this posting and agree wholeheartedly.

IMTU, the Third Imperium is as good as it can be, as bad as it must be, as strong as it needs to be, and as weak as it can get away with.

Regards,
Bill

But I would counter the "imperium is good" line with... by whose definition? And Empire of Men is just that.

 

[Drakon]

Garyius2003,

Good, gray, or evil is merely a matter of intent, the act itself has no moral value.

I disagree with this. Whether one intends to say, blow up a planet, is not a concern to those on the planet when it gets destroyed.

While I think you have a point about the act's moral value in and of itself, I do think that consequences of that act does give an action its moral value. I disagree that intent is a factor in determining moral value. There is a reason why good intentions are used as asphalt in Hell.

But, here is the thing. Values and especially moral values are comparisons. You have a set of criteria as to what is good, and what is evil, and so does everyone else. Comparisons and especially comparisons of ideas (like good and evil) require minds. It's an internal process, something done inside the skull.

That makes the ideas of good and evil subjective.

Now cultures can adopt uniform moral standards amongst their populations. Some cultures will codify and write down practical applications, proceedures, regulations and laws, based on their moral codes. But sometimes, different cultures have different standards. Then the question becomes "who is right?"

Judging the moral validity of different moral codes and value systems requires its own set of standards, standards that can be agreed upon by a majority of the population.

IMTU, the movers and shakers of the Third Imperium would very much like to govern nobly in accordance with high ideals. They always haven't that luxury however as they rarely have the resources, the time, and the information required. How often they hack the system and how blatant those hacks are all depend on the needs of the moment. They're well aware of the long term deleterious effects of those hacks, but most times they also have little choice in the matter.

So they cheat the system, for what? A "greater good?" This is a problem with an action list based moral code. Some actions may be required in order to aid a higher value. "Thou shalt not kill" works unitil you have to kill in order to prevent further death and destruction. Each "special circumstances" really shows that the basis of the moral system is not in the actions, or does not work.

 

[Easterner9504]

A government is a body of people, usually, notably ungoverned. Book-FIREFLY


IMTU the government doesn't use tricks. but men in the government do!

 

[Garyius2003]

Here is my problem, and it may be lack of creative something on my part. All my ideas to use this end up evil.

The people of Alpha in the Marches have a new taint in their air, and they need a food product from Beta to live. There is an Imperial regulation which states that an environmental study must be done prior to a large scale point to point export starport being authorized, if it will cause an environmental impact. Beta needs a new or upgraded starport to ship the products.

Count C has blocked the new port because the shipping containers being moved may kill rats nesting in and around the port. He has decided that the best University to carry out the study is in Sol Sector, and he hopes the team will be on site within 10 years.

In the meanwhile, the Count has asked and Ling Standard has agreed to offer cold ship the residents off planet as refugees, in exchange for each person shipped only signing over their mining rights to Ling.

All my ideas end up with something nasty like this. I really want to use this sort of political skull duggery since it would make more sense than 'You are drinking at a startown bar, and a woman asks you to steal the secret report'.

Something like "Through your scout contact when you check in, you are connected with the trade legate from Alpha who says there is a chance that there is an X report at University Y, endorsed by Arch Duke Smith, that says an environmental study is not needed in cases of vermin. All direct data seems to be missing from the Z data network in the subsector. He hires your team..."

 

[Kilgs]

I think it's a great idea but add more trouble! The Count is really not concerned about the environmental impact. Instead, the proposal was put forth by another planet that currently ships a great deal of cargo as the primary starport in the area. The supplement needed by Alpha is being produced on a different planet (Mu) by a corporation (BadGuys). This corporation is not amused to see that someone is going to wreck their captive consumers. This corporation puts the pressure on planet (Gamma) that a new starport will wreck their economy. This planet (Gamma) has a failing economy as is and wants to ensure they have the only B or A class port around. Another branch on Gamma is the rival political party and wants to expose the dominant party and win (elections, mob support, whatever) or maybe its another government on Gamma(1).

So Gamma goes after the Count and blackmails/bribes/cajoles him into supporting the environmental study. The Count sets up the "advisory study" from Sol despite several detractors indicating that it is not needed. One of those detractors is another Noble who would love to be elevated to being the Count.

So... who hires the players:

1) Government of Alpha--find the report and bring it to the Court. Of course, no one trusts paper anyways so that really means finding the report and then going out and grabbing the guy who wrote it.
2) Rival Noble--Dig up dirt on Count, they find out about situation through blackmail scheme on Count, ordered to find report, return it.
3) Gamma Rival Government/Party--Discover existence of report, find it, return it. The players will find out that their employers won't be releasing the information after all. Instead using it to blackmail the dominant party to step down, give them power etc. Unfortunately, Planet Alpha has hired a party of do-gooders in a Free Trader to get that report! These damned pesky adventurers will be hot on the heels of the players.
4) Government of Beta-- They want their starport! And the new income! Any and all of the above.
5) Corporation (BadGuy)--depending on the scruples of your group, take out the report and the author.

Antagonists:

Simply see above. You've got hit squads from Bad Guys Inc, the agents of the Count trying to track down the blackmail, Alpha's government agents trying to figure out what is going on and shooting people in the process. Beta Agents doing likewise. Gamma's got a team of shooters out there also and so does the rival Noble. Chances are the Imperial Commerce Bureau or whatever you call it is involved as well... covertly, of course.

Stars, I love chaos.

You could even start the players out working for the bad guys and then test their morals later on when they're asked to kill the incoming report-carriers. There is a mandatory thing you must do in this situation... the agents for one of the "good guy" factions have to be amoral assassins. Paint them as real nasty, ruthless bastards without the players knowing who they work for until later on in the campaign.

Great idea! Back when I took Administrative Law, I came up with an idea for something similar... I'll have to track it down. Case law provides GREAT ideas for adventures. I highly recommend digging through it sometimes. The most amazing stories come out in caselaw and lots of atrocious stuff becomes public information through case law decisions.

 

[Garyius2003]

Okay, please read and comment

The people of Alpha in the Marches have suffered a new taint in their air, and they need a food supplement product from Beta to live. There is an Imperial regulation which states that an environmental study must be done prior to a large scale point to point export starport being built or expanded, if it will cause an environmental impact. Beta needs an upgraded starport to ship the products.

Count C has blocked the new port because the shipping containers being moved may kill wograts nesting in and around the port. He has decided that the best University to carry out the study is in Sol Sector, and he hopes the team will be on site within 10 years.

In the meanwhile, the Count has asked and Ling Standard has agreed to offer cold ship the residents off planet as refugees, in exchange for each person shipped only signing over their mining rights to Ling.

There exists in certain data nets mention of a Vermin Report issued by the University of X (located in the next subsector some 15 jumps away). The Vermin Report states that an Environmental study is not needed in cases were vermin are what would be damaged by a Starport expansion. It appears the report was endorsed by a previous Arch Duke, who attached his seal as offical endorsement.

The report may directly mention wograts as vermin. The lack of a copy of the report in subsector academic and official datanets is troubling, and calls into doubt the secondary citations to it.

The characters include a member(s) of the TAS, and are staying in a Hostel. One night they are approached by the TAS station manager, who had briefly spoken with them when the PCs updated their TAS diary of travel events while checking in.

The manager asks if they are interested in meeting with a potential patron with a task endorsed by the TAS. When the players agree, the manager arranges a meeting the next morning with herself and the local Imperial Ministry of Justice Assistant Marshal in Charge. They briefly outline the above state of events, and offer the following contract:

1. Proceed to the world where the University is located.

2. Obtain a notarized copy of the Vermin report, from the ceremonial paper copy with the Arch Duke’s seal if possible.

3. Attempt to obtain a copy of the report from the local academic data net.

4. While returning, attempt to obtain a copy from each academic data net along the route.

5. If no copies are available at all, download as many secondary citations to the report as possible.

The two offer to pay all expenses of the players, including standard salaries, fuel, and maintenance, as well as operational expenses. If the characters have a mortgage, it will be covered during the mission and the party will receive cr200,000. If the party does not have a mortgage, they will be offered cr300,000. The party may bargain up slightly, but not much else is available to the patrons.

The party will be given a ‘To Whom it May Concern’ letter from the TAS manager, stating that they are researching academic data availability issues with an eye to a new TAS pilot publishing project that has been proposed. They are also given a standard letter of credit chip from TAS, allowing them to draw for fuel, maintenance, and supplies along their journey.


1. Everything is as it seems, and the lack of the report’s mention in the subsector data net is a simple case of a missed update 100 years ago. The report will convince the Count, who actually cares about the environment. If the local Ling office knew, it would have picked a different method of gaining an advantage.

2. Everything is as it seems, and the lack of the report’s mention in the subsector data net is a simple case of a missed update 100 years ago. If Ling and the Count find out what the party is doing, they will arrange for a official boarding with an eye to destroying (non-violently) the report quietly. If the party resists with violence they will be punished as pirates. If the report arrives at the Count’s court in front of witnesses he will reverse himself.

3. The report exists, and the lack of the report’s mention in the subsector data net is due to overt action by Ling and a bribed sector commander of the X-Boat Network. If the report is given to the Count, he will reverse his position. Ling will hire criminals to destroy the report at various Starports on the party’s travel back, but will not engage pirates.

4. There is no such report, and the party will be tagged by Naval and Scout intelligence as possible Zho spies given their odd behavior and flight patterns. They will be boarded on a regular basis, attempts will be made to place tracking and spy devices on the ship, and the party will be mugged with intent to steal all their carried goods.

5. The Count and Ling have heard that such report exists, but have only seen secondary citations to it. They have decided to hire the party to see if the report is available, and if it has been screened by a rival noble or megacorp to politically ambush the Count later.

6. The Count is insanely desperate due to gambling debts incurred by his son prior to his death, debts which will destroy the family. He has wholly sold out to the Ling subsector manager who has engineered the situation with hopes that gaining control of an entire planet of resources will springboard him to the Domain Board of Directors. The University is being watched, and at first the party will be attacked by mugging and such forth by criminals employed through cut-outs by Ling. Later attacks will be more and more desperate, with a final showdown between the party’s ship and an unmarked pirate in orbit after the Count has all local defense, scout, and navy craft sent to far orbit or beyond.

 

[Garyius2003]

No one likes or dislikes my idea?

 

[Easterner9504]

91 1/2 Patrons

First I've seen of the Patron Contact post.


It's fine, In theory I could even use it some day.

 

[Whipsnade]

No one likes or dislikes my idea?

Garyius2003,

It's fine and you should upload a copy to the Free Library here so it doesn't get lost among the threads.

My taste runs toward more "gray" adventures. Having the Count and LSP so overtly evil simplifies the adventure too much IMHO. As it stands now, the PCs are involved in little more than a business trip, albeit a business trip in which they may get shot. During this "nail" mission, they travel 15 jumps, collect some documents, travel 15 jumps, and hand said documents over. That's a pretty straightforward course of action, almost railroading, and it ignores all the intriguing bits in your story.

Start with the atmospheric taint on World Alpha? Why has it become a problem now? Was it there before? Why has it appeared? Loads of questions there with many answers that could be quite exciting.

How about that dietary supplement? Why is it only available on World Beta? Apparently it's been available for years at a low volume, it's just that it's new medical use has increased demand. Why can't it be grown, produced, or synthesized elsewhere? Why hasn't it been grown, produced, or synthesized elsewhere?

And why isn't World Beta excited about the prospect of increased exports? You have TAS acting as the patron here, but the blocked starport expansion directly effects World Beta's pocketbook. Why aren't they clamoring for action? Why aren't their own Imperial nobles working towards a solution?

Also, why is the MoJ involved and why must they use the PCs instead of their own people? Has LSP suborned the regional MoJ organization to such an extent that the local agents can't trust anyone in their own ministry?

There are too many suborned imperial officials for my liking, not from a moral standpoint but from a monetary standpoint! X-boat network officials bribed to queer the updates, SPA officials bribed to let the Count's/LSP's men act as a boarding party, bribes everywhere. That's a lot of money being handed out just to grab some mineral rights and it's too imperially-focused. LSP could buy the locals much easier while avoiding any imperial entanglements, but they've decided on the far riskier course of subverting imperial officials instead? Why?

I'd "gray it up some" more, make things less pat, less black and white. How about these ideas?

- The Coca Option: The Count has blocked the expansion because he doesn't want to see increased exports of the supplement. The supplement in it's raw form is fine, but it can be easily processed to create a drug that most of the worlds in the county either prohibit or heavily control. The Imperium has allowed a small amount of trade in the supplement because of it's use against the taint, however increasing production and shipments of the supplement will increase drug trafficking in the county and the worlds affected have petitioned the Count to take action. World Beta has no strong opinions in the matter either way, they know their export of the supplement occurs only at imperial sufferance and won't make waves over the issue.

- The Coca Option II: The Count has blocked the expansion for the reasons mentioned above and recent events have given the Imperium the opportunity to stop production of the supplement entirely. A new, more effective supplement is available but World Alpha resists using it for various religious, cultural, economic and/or political reasons. By limiting the movement of the supplement, the Count hopes to "encourage" World A to change its mind. Again, World Beta has no strong opinions in the matter for the reason stated above.

- The Taint Option: The taint, or it's recent increase, is a result of certain development policies undertaken by World Alpha, policies that have put the world at odds with the Ministry of Conservation. The Count is following "suggestions" from higher authorities that people of World Alpha be allowed to sleep in the bed that they made.

- The Taint Option II: The taint, or it's recent increase, is the result of policies undertaken by off-world interests; i.e. LSP. Increasing imports of the supplement will allow those off-world interests to avoid repairing or reversing the effects of those policies, something the Imperium in the person of the Count is determined to prevent.

- The Big Picture Option: The environmental impact study required for starport expansion on World Beta is recent addition to the region's "code of imperial regulations". Previous imperial projects in the region had resulted in the severe damage or destruction of many unique habitats. The impact study requirement was added by the Count's predecessor over the objections by many parties, including the current Count, that the edict could be interpreted too broadly. The current Count is using the starport expansion issue as a way to force the re-examination of the edict.

- The Trade War Option: Unknown to all but those in the highest circles, wograts are currently an important part of one (or several) research efforts. This research could be in several areas; anagathics, drugs of various types, psionics, etc. Imperial interest in the research is a given, but the Imperium wants to keep their interest a secret for obvious reasons. While LSP is aware that one of its rivals is involved in lucrative wograt research and would like to discomfort that rival, it is unaware the imperial involvement. LSP is using the starport expansion, perhaps in conjunction with either Taint Option, to wrongfoot their rival.

There are six options off the top of my pointy head that could "deepen" or "gray up" your nifty adventure idea. The "greedy megacorp/greedy noble" trope is just that, a trope. While tropes are fine, it's usually better to spice them up some so they aren't too obvious to the players. Loren Wiseman routinely remarks that there are really only 5 or 6 plots. It's how you dress a plot up that matters.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Drakon]

- The Coca Option II: The Count has blocked the expansion for the reasons mentioned above and recent events have given the Imperium the opportunity to stop production of the supplement entirely. A new, more effective supplement is available but World Alpha resists using it for various religious, cultural, economic and/or political reasons. By limiting the movement of the supplement, the Count hopes to "encourage" World A to change its mind. Again, World Beta has no strong opinions in the matter for the reason stated above.

Bill

The economic issue is the best. If it is a choic between death and changing one's mind, most folks change their minds. If they simply cannot afford the supplement, (Not anything the makers want, etc.) that would be something beyond the population's control, and they can't simply change their minds to fix.