LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
It seems to me that characters, even unarmored, can take an unreasonable amount of damage in TNE. Am I wrong?
Do TNE weapons do enough damage?
- Thread starter LeperColony
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nope, you're not wrong.
TNE changed the Traveller combat paradigm from "avoid combat at all costs, you will be seriously injured or dead" to "shrugs off plasma gun hit and rescues princess".
TNE changed the Traveller combat paradigm from "avoid combat at all costs, you will be seriously injured or dead" to "shrugs off plasma gun hit and rescues princess".
You can use the "old fix" for Twilight2K and make all damage rolls 1d10 instead of d6. That was pretty much universal for those who wanted to play a more gritty, realistic game of T2K. Considering it's the same system, it should work although TNE has weapons with some seriously high damage...
Or since TNE is mostly d20 make weapon damage d20 as well, should "liven" things up a bit. Also don't forgest that damage from plasma/fusion weapons was upgraded. I did a TL10 0.4Mj Plasma Gun http://www.skaran.net/corecampaign/technology/equipment/cygnus/pgmp10.html
which can do 19 dice of damage carried by the poor sods in TL10 powered battledress.
which can do 19 dice of damage carried by the poor sods in TL10 powered battledress.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
I think I like the idea of changing the damage die. When you up the damage dice, do you also increase the damage people take when armor completely absorbs impacts? I think it's currently one point, but a D4 or D6 seems like it would work.
It changes it from Princess Bride & Star Wars level cinematic into SG1 and Conan level cinematic. It doesn't change it to truly gritty, nor even to typical cop show gritty.
Making the formulae for hits the worst level instead of second to worst, in addition to d10s, kinda does.
But not a one really has a strong "You don't feel like fighting" mechanic, and all of them have a "PC's don't need to check morale to opt to fight" setup.
Not actually. Take in consideration that a low initative character can be put out of the fight by one hit. Characters (and NPC) looses initative points as they also take damage. so a ton of hit points may not help you if you have spent your time behind a desk and ended up with one measly initiative point to start with.
epicenter00
SOC-13
Yeah, the concept in TNE is that a violence is simply a fact of life in the universe, especially in the RC area. The Wilds are dangerous, TEDs are brutal and repressive, and so on. So I think they moved to a more survivable combat system.
A worse problem with TNE combat (for me, at least) is that it's just inherently boring when your players get their first suits of light battle dress and they visit a TL5 world. There's really not much that can hurt them provided they even use half a brain, but I'm not really a fan of "a group of characters in battle dress take on an entire Panzer Division" that seems to make so many Traveller players drool.
A worse problem with TNE combat (for me, at least) is that it's just inherently boring when your players get their first suits of light battle dress and they visit a TL5 world. There's really not much that can hurt them provided they even use half a brain, but I'm not really a fan of "a group of characters in battle dress take on an entire Panzer Division" that seems to make so many Traveller players drool.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Do HEAP rounds have special rules I'm not seeing anywhere? They often seem worse than lower tech DS rounds. Granted, they have more even penetration and better penetration at longer ranges, but otherwise they don't seem that great.
A couple of small features... not reflected in gameplay... make them differentially able:
1) The small flash when they detonate on target confirms hits
2) don't overpenetrate (usually)
3) don't lose penetration over range (ok, this one is reflected)
4) Smaller powder load needed for penetration (but not for range nor action, so it's usually full power)
5) doesn't leave sabots around... for ballistics
6) doesn't leave much left of round (also lower ballistics over ball)
epicenter00
SOC-13
That's pretty much the difference - KE penetrators are better for a lot of "roleplaying game firefights" (which tend to occur at less than 50m) but for long range work HEAP rounds are superior. You actually really see an effect as a player if your GM runs a tactical game (or is willing to) where you can choose the range of combats you get into. As an RC member, you often have superior sensor coverage, which means you can choose the range you engage the enemy at. If you can do it out of the "golden" engagement envelope for your opponent, you can inflict casualties on that TED's lower tech force before they get into range. When they start breathing down, you can pack up and leave in a hurry.
It doesn't mean as much in a Regency game where everyone has higher tech stuff.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Weapons like the 9mm pistol, on Pg 47 of the RC Equipment Guide, the TL-6 HE and TL-9 HEAP are identical. Same with the 5mm Body Pistol on 49. Maybe it's just the gamer in me, and it has no real world applications, but somehow I just feel like a TL-9 HEAP round should do something better than a TL-6. Does the AP indicator even do anything? Doesn't seem to.
Also, how do you guys feel about the way lasers work in TNE? They seem like all or nothing weapons, but they also feel like they are great against people you can easily defeat anyway (low TL people without armor), and worthless against decent opposition. So it's almost like why would anyone bother with them? In other Trav versions, some armor types are great against lasers, but lasers are never rendered worthless.
Armor seems very effective, or less penetration appears to be somewhat ineffective. Many small arms do around 5-7 damage, with penetrations either like 1-3-nil or 2-2-2. Someone with 1 or 2 points of armor (not really a lot) will take just a few dice damage. Somebody in combat armor or even battledress has little to fear from anything except plasma weaponry.
Now maybe that seems not too divergent from other Traveller games, but really if you have battledress with 12-14 points of armor, sure you don't have much to fear from a 3D6 weapon, but you can take some damage.
I actually really like the detail of the TNE system, I'm just wondering if the values aren't a little underwhelming in terms of presenting combat challenges to players. Or, in the alternative, requiring high powered opposition which seems somewhat unrealistic given the setting.
Also, how do you guys feel about the way lasers work in TNE? They seem like all or nothing weapons, but they also feel like they are great against people you can easily defeat anyway (low TL people without armor), and worthless against decent opposition. So it's almost like why would anyone bother with them? In other Trav versions, some armor types are great against lasers, but lasers are never rendered worthless.
Armor seems very effective, or less penetration appears to be somewhat ineffective. Many small arms do around 5-7 damage, with penetrations either like 1-3-nil or 2-2-2. Someone with 1 or 2 points of armor (not really a lot) will take just a few dice damage. Somebody in combat armor or even battledress has little to fear from anything except plasma weaponry.
Now maybe that seems not too divergent from other Traveller games, but really if you have battledress with 12-14 points of armor, sure you don't have much to fear from a 3D6 weapon, but you can take some damage.
I actually really like the detail of the TNE system, I'm just wondering if the values aren't a little underwhelming in terms of presenting combat challenges to players. Or, in the alternative, requiring high powered opposition which seems somewhat unrealistic given the setting.
Allthough TNE rules do not give any apparent difference between KE, HE and HEAP rounds in small arms. Specially when it comes to the amount of damage. I would however, maybe maked HE wounds more complicated to attend to with first aid. I would add serious bleeding if the hit is in body, thus doing damage over time as a bullet most likely passes through the target, while the HE will cause larger wounds and more fragmentation inside the tissue.
I was also puzzled by the lack of effect of the lasers, but they are more realistic. You will find lasers often more effective than slug throwers against an opposition that do not wear combat armor or battledress. Most flack jackets and other bullet proof wests are not effective enough to protect against lasers, which may stop slugs.
And I like the better and more effective battledresses =0)
I was also puzzled by the lack of effect of the lasers, but they are more realistic. You will find lasers often more effective than slug throwers against an opposition that do not wear combat armor or battledress. Most flack jackets and other bullet proof wests are not effective enough to protect against lasers, which may stop slugs.
And I like the better and more effective battledresses =0)
The TL-9 HEAP, in the base rule book, does 2-2-2 on penetration over the ranges, whereas all of the other non-HEAP rounds have 'nil' for penetration. Penetration of 2 goes through everything in terms of body armor up through TL-10 Combat Armor. So that's a distinct difference.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Well, maybe I'm mistaken but the ammo chart on page 351 shows a lot of 1-nil and 2-nil ball rounds. And if you look at the RCEG, HEAP seems to lose out even worse.
HEAP often retains the 2-2-2 (though not in every case), but DS rounds tend to seem better for a lot of options, especially since they are usually 1-3-nil and the 1 applies to short and medium range. Someone else mentioned being able to engage at longer range with HEAP against armor, and I'm not saying that's worthless, but given that medium range for an assault rifle (5.5mm pg 52 RCEG) is 220 meters with DS (DS also has better range than HEAP), that's not a bad engagement range.
Also, and this ties into the combat system, if you shoot someone with an average gun, say 5 damage, and HEAP at any range, versus someone with modest armor (1-2pts), you aren't going to do very much damage. You'll end up doing, on average, 10.5 (+2) or 3.5 (+4) points, depending on whether your target is wearing 1 or 2 points of armor. But the average person (Con 6) can take any of these hits to any location, even the head, and still be up. In fact, only the blunt trauma damage from the prevented damage brings a head hit into serious territory.
Lasers have it even worse off. Someone stated that flak jackets are useless against them, but the chart on page 359 (which I have serious problems with. Why does TL-14 Battledress only protect for 8, when TL-12 suits from the RCEG have 12-15 depending on the model) indicates that flak jackets have a 1 against lasers. Lasers really seem only effective against people who present little to no threat to technologically sophisticated individuals anyway.
HEAP often retains the 2-2-2 (though not in every case), but DS rounds tend to seem better for a lot of options, especially since they are usually 1-3-nil and the 1 applies to short and medium range. Someone else mentioned being able to engage at longer range with HEAP against armor, and I'm not saying that's worthless, but given that medium range for an assault rifle (5.5mm pg 52 RCEG) is 220 meters with DS (DS also has better range than HEAP), that's not a bad engagement range.
Also, and this ties into the combat system, if you shoot someone with an average gun, say 5 damage, and HEAP at any range, versus someone with modest armor (1-2pts), you aren't going to do very much damage. You'll end up doing, on average, 10.5 (+2) or 3.5 (+4) points, depending on whether your target is wearing 1 or 2 points of armor. But the average person (Con 6) can take any of these hits to any location, even the head, and still be up. In fact, only the blunt trauma damage from the prevented damage brings a head hit into serious territory.
Lasers have it even worse off. Someone stated that flak jackets are useless against them, but the chart on page 359 (which I have serious problems with. Why does TL-14 Battledress only protect for 8, when TL-12 suits from the RCEG have 12-15 depending on the model) indicates that flak jackets have a 1 against lasers. Lasers really seem only effective against people who present little to no threat to technologically sophisticated individuals anyway.
