Do Clones Have Free Will?

[Timerover51]

This question, do clones have free will, was triggered by another thread, but it seems to be more appropriate to T5. I gave this matter a fair amount of thought back when lots of people were talking about cloning Michael Jordan and producing an entire team of him. At the time, I had some serious reservations about all of this working.

To begin will, if you want an athlete, then you are going to have to start earlier for the necessary physical development to take place. Once the clone reaches a certain age, probably around 6 to 8 or so, he is going to figure out that all he is is a clone of Michael Jordan, and he is expected, indeed it is demanded of him, that he take up basketball and reproduce Jordan's achievements. My question is, what if he does not want to? Is the family raising him going to take active steps to compel him to play basketball, and if so, what? Even worse, what happens when he goes off to college? Again, everyone is going to expect him to be another Michael Jordan. What if he decides he wants to play baseball instead. Is the college going to tell him that he plays basketball or else? What if he decides on the "else"? Again, what are they going to do? I guess that they could cancel any scholarships, assuming that they would risk one on him.

Using that as an example, is a clone a free-will individual, or simply a slave to whoever spends the funds to clone him or her?

 

[tjoneslo]

T5.10 has several types of clones depending upon what you are trying to accomplish.

You can create a clone which grows and ages naturally.

Or you can force grow the clone to age 18. These clones have no personality. You can then implant a personality. In some cases you implant a full copy of a given personality. Or you can implant a partial, edited personality.

Once the implant the personality in the clone the personality evolves naturally.

So if you create 6 clones of Michael Jordan, you would force grow the clones and implant 6 copies of the Personality. From there they are their own unique personalities, which do have free will and can make their own decisions.

The "Guest Worker Clones" have an edited, limited personality implanted to make more effective workers. These may or may not have much free will, simply because this interferes with their ability to work. This really reflects some pretty distopic visions of a future reality.

So really it depends on how you create your clone.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Biologically? Absolutely possessed of free will.

What's important are the sociological, social, and cultural framework surrounding cloning in any specific instance. (And, this being Traveller, any technological personality/identity modifications.)

Is the clone a force-grown worker with a limited lifespan?

Is there an indentured-servitude concept for clones? ("Repaying one's own manufacturing costs"). This is similar to the implied familial contract, but made literal and assigned a value in Credits.

Is the clone a body-donor spare for a brain or personality transplant?

Are clones generally considered fully human*?


*or whatever sophont they're cloned from

 

[robject]

I think Timerover's questions are excellent, and can make good adventure material. Which is pretty much the whole point.

 

[mike wightman]

Do identical twins have free will? They are technically clones. But using the classic sci fi (almost real world) trope of taking the genetic material of one person and growing an identical copy then yes, the clone still has the free will any baby has.

The rules for clones in T5 are a bit weird, you do not get the diversity in a clone family that T5 postulates which is a bit odd - I would love to know where MWM got his guidance on cloning and genetics from because it is just wrong.

As to a clones rights in the Third Imperium, they are often treated as non-human, as slaves, as property, as biological machines. There is a very nasty bit of Imperial practice - I will give points to whoever can recognise the canonical source.

The Emperors of the Third Imperium had a long history of having clone copies made of their children so that there would be body doubles available - for a variety of reasons. The fate of some of these was to be executed on the death of their 'parent', while others were given new identities and sent to live in far off parts.

 

[kilemall]

Re: MWM and cloning, my perception is that when science comes up with one thing and the story need another, MWM goes with the story. This is in keeping with the idea that Traveller is a Story Sim not a Science Sim.

 

[coliver988]

see The Island about clones and free will Or the classic Blade Runner. (links to the IMDB entries)

They are good questions and it really depends, to me at least, on how they are raised: forced growth vat of some sort with the brain's higher functions turned off, then probably not. But that opens all sorts of ethical issues as well. Heck - the entire concept of clones and wafers present interesting moral and ethical quandaries.

For Traveller terms, I'd go with the each system using the clones determines the rules: as each world has its own laws, and the clones are not weapons of mass destruction (well, perhaps in the Clone Wars universe) the Imperium probably has no laws about them. There may be some expected norms perhaps (such as the psionic issue) but nothing to stop systems from having their own set of laws for clones.

But in answer to the original post, I would say yes, clones have free wills. But they could still be slaves or chattel.

 

[coliver988]

Re: MWM and cloning, my perception is that when science comes up with one thing and the story need another, MWM goes with the story. This is in keeping with the idea that Traveller is a Story Sim not a Science Sim.

I like that way of looking at things. As I posited in another thread, we're playing Traveller, not 21st Century Reality. I can wear some heavy duty suspenders of disbelief to enjoy the game more.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

By Imperial policy clones are free individuals:

In the 17th year of the Imperium, Cleon Zhunastu declared, "Any sentient life form within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected being, and thus a citizen of the Third Imperium." Cleon went on to say that robots are not citizens of the lmperium "One may argue that an intelligent robot might be sentient," stated Cleon,"but it is definitely not a life form."

So, you can't keep clones as slaves, in the Imperium at least.

 

[mike wightman]

Except that there are canon examples of them doing just that - my previous example of the Emperor clones, the clone families of T5/AotI...

it appears that the Imperium do not view clones as sentient life forms but rather constructed synthetics...

 

[Proneutron]

Identical twins (natural clones) have free will. Cloned animals have as much free will as uncloned animals of the same species. How is this even a question????

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Except that there are canon examples of them doing just that - my previous example of the Emperor clones, the clone families of T5/AotI...

Just a little routine retconning...

it appears that the Imperium do not view clones as sentient life forms but rather constructed synthetics...

Clones are clearly not Synthetics:

Clones are distinguishable from synthetics (a blend of biological and non-biological processes), chimeras (the result of genetic engineering), and robots (truly mechanical or non-organic beings).

I can speculate that naturally grown clones are considered legal persons, but force-grown clones with implanted personalities are not (unless they are a replacement for the implanted person).

The example of an Offspring Clone describes a full legal person, so all clones are not property, even in T5.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't it strange that the rich and powerful can bend the rules to suit themselves...

 

[mike wightman]

Just a little routine retconning...

T5 and AotI are current gospel, and in AotI you have slave clone families.

Clones are clearly not Synthetics:

That quote just says you can tell the difference between the various types of manufactured being, it says nothing of theri legal status.
Plus a clone that is manufactured is a synthetic organism.

I can speculate that naturally grown clones are considered legal persons, but force-grown clones with implanted personalities are not (unless they are a replacement for the implanted person).

What is a natural grown clone? The DNA doesn't extract itself, inject itself in a blanked cell, and then implant itself in a womb. It is a manufacturing process. And according to T5 force grown clones with implanted personalities are an insurance policy for the very rich.

The example of an Offspring Clone describes a full legal person, so all clones are not property, even in T5.

I agree, the same thing is mentioned in a way in the TNE Regency sourcebook about the different types of clones, it just doesn't go as far as the chattel slave clone families of T5/AotI which are a new addition.

 

[Condottiere]

I assume this would be three dee manufactured clones, assuming exact organic human material as original donor.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That quote just says you can tell the difference between the various types of manufactured being, it says nothing of theri legal status.

Certainly.

Plus a clone that is manufactured is a synthetic organism.

A Synthetic in T5 terms is a creature that mixes organic and non-organic processes, i.e. includes machines, like the Borg.

Clones are distinguishable from synthetics (a blend of biological and non-biological processes), ...

What is a natural grown clone?

A clone that grows up normally, i.e. not "force-grown".

 

[mike wightman]

Androids in T5 are synthetics and are purely biological - indeed they have been ever since MWM's original article in JTAS all those years ago.

And I note that the latest version has dropped the info on them? Odd because it is in previous iterations of T5.

 

[whartung]

To begin will, if you want an athlete, then you are going to have to start earlier for the necessary physical development to take place. Once the clone reaches a certain age, probably around 6 to 8 or so, he is going to figure out that all he is is a clone of Michael Jordan, and he is expected, indeed it is demanded of him, that he take up basketball and reproduce Jordan's achievements.

If the clones have "Michael Jordan" "downloaded" in to them, then they'd ostensibly have the same drives, and passions as MJ does. Given identical environmental circumstances, you'd still get a good basketball player.

But we're talking about a mature MJ. If you take identical MJ bodies, and put them in different circumstances from birth, you likely would not get two basketball stars, you'd only get the one.

Download a mature MJ in to an underdeveloped MJ body, and you basically have a successful and capable athlete having to go through a LOT of physical therapy and training to hone his body to what the original has been doing over the years.

The mind may have the instincts, talent, and experience to perform, but the body won't have the reinforced neural pathways, the enlarged, developed muscle, blood flow, and respiratory systems. It's not pure "mind over matter", it's basically a skilled musician playing an out of tune instrument.

How would a physically disabled MJ perform in the shadow of a capable one? Seeing the original flying through the air and not being able to duplicate it. Imagine a team of underperforming MJs struggling to improve. Would they all excel, or would some give up?

They're not robots, and despite the single source of original intent, all of the their experiences immediately start to fork, however subtly.

see The Island about clones and free will Or the classic Blade Runner. (links to the IMDB entries)

The Island is a pretty good movie. Don't let that fact that it's Michael Bay put you off. The more you don't know, the better. It was a real surprise.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Androids in T5 are synthetics and are purely biological - indeed they have been ever since MWM's original article in JTAS all those years ago.

An Android is a type of Synthetic, see B1 p112.

Android. Specifically, a synthetic human.
...
Sophontoid. A synthetic sophont. Sophontoid is an expansion of the word android to encompass all sophonts rather than just humans.
...
Sophontoids
A Sophontoid is a semi-organic imitation of a sophont.

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, but in earlier versions of T5 and all the way back to early JTAS days androids are defined as entirely biological.