Did Margaret and Lucan really fight in coreward Fornast?

[Kilgs]

In the Rebellion Sourcebook, there is a map (1118) which shows fighting between Lucan and Margaret way up in the coreward section of Fornast. Basically in the corner between Ley and Antares.

While I like it, it certainly seems odd that she would be pushing fleets way up there unless they got pushed there trying to get to Core.

Is that a typo and supposed to be Antares/Brzk v. Lucan?

 

[GypsyComet]

Recall that Margaret was married to, if memory serves, a former Intel type. Sneaking a fleet into a different frontier than your own to wreak a little havok sounds about right. it is also possible that her fleet was heading that way to take out Brzk, likely the weakest (in her eyes) case of the competition, so she and the others could concentrate on Lucan with no "alien" interference. Instead, she found a fleet of Lucan's, which initiated a different dance entirely.

No, I don't have a high opinion of Margaret.

 

[Whipsnade]

While I like it, it certainly seems odd that she would be pushing fleets way up there unless they got pushed there trying to get to Core.

Have you considered the possibility that those are local forces which declared for Margaret rather than forces dispatched from Delphi by Margaret?

Also, Margaret is married to one of the Tukera heirs. While he may have had a short career in imperial service prior to polishing boardroom chairs and clipping dividend coupons in the family business, it would have been more a matter of form than substance.

 

[BRJN]

All of the claimants to the Iridium Throne are trying to gain support throughout the Imperium. That fleet could be official Margaret, or a Tukera subsidiary following their boss' lead, or a bunch of locals who decided that Margaret was the best choice. As far as Lucan's forces care, they all can be described as "traitors who support Margaret."

Margaret, despite her overall naivete, does have flashes of brilliance: she conceives an Imperial Heir, thereby improving her personal claim. Also setting herself up to be an Arbellatra-like 'regency' - which everybody knows brought an end to the last Civil War. A conflict-sick Imperium, especially the debatable between-lands, might go for it. Norris and Daibei could eventually be persuaded to declare loyalty to the heir if they won't declare for her. (Or so she thinks / hopes.)

 

[Kilgs]

Have you considered the possibility that those are local forces which declared for Margaret rather than forces dispatched from Delphi by Margaret?

That's what I came up with as the only plausible answer. From Mgt Journal #1, I had come across this...

"Margaret’s supporters circulated a confidential message throughout the Imperial Fleets stating her position and urging their support. This resulted in several crucial fleets declaring their allegiance to Margaret.”

It goes on to indicate that her supporters were widespread and located throughout the Imperium so I'm guessing that it is something along those lines.

HOWEVER... in going through all the available Rebellion maps, it's pretty clear that confusion reigned in GDW about what was going down. Seems odd from the guys that brought us the Great Game but some of the maps and statements completely change the battlefields or alter dispositions.

In reviewing it though, I really like the chaos and confusion from comparing sources. It feels like trying to piece together an actual interstellar war where everyone was fighting everyone. Looking back, no one really knows the full picture. The canon history is focused on the Lucan spinward campaigns and Solomani campaigns. Even there, things are confusing but we have a good idea of what was going on but elsewhere throughout the edges of the Imperium... confusion reigns entirely.

Makes it feel epic as a galactic civil war should... and it allows GM's to put together their own events and not conflict with canon. Point being, I was originally irritated there wasn't more information but now I'm very thankful.

(There's also little information regarding what actions Lucan or other factions took against Tukera... or what Tukera did. Did they try to move fleet to Delphi? Were they engaged in pro-Margaret commerce raiding, logistical support, providing communication & coordination... who knows. Lots of room there...)

 

[Kilgs]

Here was the other quote... had to find it in my notes. It's from later 1119-1120.

“[Margaret] slowly and diplomatically absorbed former Imperial assets, bringing starports under her control and taking over naval and scout bases. She has a strong power base amongst nobles in all parts of the Imperium, and being astrographically close to Capital has provided her with a steady stream of defectors fed up with Lucan. Recently, Lucan feared a reconvened Moot would legitimize Margaret’s claim to the throne.”

 

[Whipsnade]

That's what I came up with as the only plausible answer.

Margaret has always held a certain fascination for me. Not because I ever viewed her as a viable candidate to reunite the Imperium, but because of her willful blindness.

She's the poster child for those I've always referred to as the Fantasists. As your MTJ quotes illustrate, there's a sizeable portion of the Imperium's population ranging from dukes to dishwashers who believe if the clock could only be turned back to 1516 hours on 132-1116 everything will return to normal. The section in MT's Rebellion Sourcebook discussion her faction mentions "business as usual" more than few times. What Margaret and her fellow fantasists don't or, perhaps more accurately, choose not to realize is that you can't unscramble an egg.

The Imperium of 1116 died with Strephon's double just as the Imperium of 606 died with Jacqueline I. Arbellatra, alone of the Emperors of the Flag, realized that and that was part of the reason she succeeded where the others did not. Margaret, plus her supports in Delphi and elsewhere, don't or can't understand that.

In reviewing it though, I really like the chaos and confusion from comparing sources.

I think some of the confusion and conflict between sources was done on purpose. Not all, but some.

 

[Kilgs]

I think some of the confusion and conflict between sources was done on purpose. Not all, but some.

Considering the detail-oriented madness of those involved, I wouldn't doubt it.

As for the Fantasist comment, I agree. I really think anyone who doesn't like the Rebellion (not for breaking the Imperium but because they believe it's implausible) should spend some quality with Hard Times.

It provides a reasonable scenario for the mass chaos that erupts... the failure of most factions/nobles/corporations to take into account that it was a true civil war and act accordingly.

 

[GypsyComet]

Arbellatra, alone of the Emperors of the Flag, realized that and that was part of the reason she succeeded where the others did not.

Arbellatra had help in this from a long term observer, it turns out.

 

[Ulsyus]

With the aid of planners from megacorporations
Hortalez et Cie and Tukera, she (Margaret) used her own considerable
talent for domestic policy to stabilize her position in Delphi
Sector and carefully manage avoluntary retraction from many
of her holdings in Massilia. This moved her out of frequent
contact with Lucan, a primary objective of her defensive (some
would say weak) policy.
...
(From 1122) Remarkably, and to the
consternation of many, her initial policy of refusing to bait
Lucan into vengeful attacks on her areas has proved astoundingly
successful. While Lucan has become embroiled in vendettas
against first Dulinor, then Strephon, and now the Ziru
Sirkaa, Margaret has been left with a remarkably intact and
high-technology fleet.

Hard Times p16

Note also that Margaret's cease-fire negotiations with the Solomani in 1124 produced such discord within the Soli military-politico machine that there was a decrease in their offensive activities. Plus, she gets the Hivers involved in Imperial space.

I'm not so sure that Margaret was the lightweight that she's sometimes portrayed as.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm not so sure that Margaret was the lightweight that she's sometimes portrayed as.

After eight years of war she shouldn't be.

 

[Kilgs]

I see her as fighting a different war. The one that "should have" been fought where long-term economics and sound practices would play out... like letting Lucan pound his fleets into dust against other people. I wonder if its feasible to consider the idea that Margaret's plan was the Moot...

As noted above, she was a bit of a fantasist. Of course, if it wasn't for the stupid Earthlings she'd have been in much better shape.

(Although she goes all Amazon warrior in the New New Era. And she's a bit more adept in my unofficial histories...).

 

[Whipsnade]

I see her as fighting a different war.

She's not just fighting a different war. She's fighting the wrong war in the wrong way.

The one that "should have" been fought where long-term economics and sound practices would play out...

That's fighting the wrong war in the wrong way. She's fighting the type of civil war which all the pundits, "talking heads", and other "experts" thought prior to 132-1116 was the most plausible type of future civil war. Margaret is fighting in a manner by which the last Civil War could have been won more quickly.

This isn't the last Civil War.

... like letting Lucan pound his fleets into dust against other people.

Margaret occupied a "sweet spot" of sorts. While her faction abuts Lucan's, Lucan has too many other active and immediate threats. As long as she doesn't actively attack him, Lucan can safely ignore her. There's some raiding and small scale fighting between regional forces claiming allegiance to both Margaret and Lucan. Margaret and Lucan, however, are not directing grand offensives at each other.

I wonder if its feasible to consider the idea that Margaret's plan was the Moot...

Which is another indication that Margaret is fighting the last war. The Moot was one of the tools Arbellatra used to win the last civil war, but Margaret doesn't realize that the Moot is as irrevocably broken as the Imperium. The Moot died when it allowed Lucan to send it's members home.

Margaret is working to win the "hearts and minds" of the Moot as if the next emperor will somehow be selected by the Moot because that's what happened in the last war. At the end of this war, however, the sitting emperor will select the Moot.

Another example of Margaret fighting the last or wrong war is her using cached genetic material to give birth to Alkhalikoi twins. She thinks maintaining Arbellatra's bloodline is still a useful tool much like the Moot.

 

[Kilgs]

Agreed. Might have been interesting if she was more cognizant of the situation but, as I indicated above, that essay on the mistakes of the entire population thinking it would be another war "like the last one" is golden reading.

Came across this quote in the T5 forum awhile back... been waiting to use it ;-)

Dukurshaa: The inability to tell the difference between numbers and reality. Sort of a Heisenberg's principle for interstellar commerce and industry. Dukurshaa is a sign of insanity in Vilani culture.

 

[BRJN]

Another example of Margaret fighting the last or wrong war is her using cached genetic material to give birth to Alkhalikoi twins. She thinks maintaining Arbellatra's bloodline is still a useful tool much like the Moot.

Considering English or French royal lines, being a blood-heir to the old King is a claim to be the next King. Henry V of England uses this excuse to barge into France; the French royal family won't even listen to claims that go through a woman inheriting. Shakespeare has Richard III kill his nephews and cousins because they are closer to the succession than is he; all of them are grandchildren of the former King.
You of course still need the army / navy, economy, &c that says "I can beat up my opponents and I can run a kingdom" to back up your blood-claim.

I'm not aware of anything that says the Imperial nobility is far off that model.

 

[mike wightman]

The Emperors list in CT shows that bloodlines were not important to the succession.

 

[Whipsnade]

I'm not aware of anything that says the Imperial nobility is far off that model.

Read the Emperor's List and pay attention to antebellum members.

Not only are all types of primogeniture followed in the Imperium - for example we know that in many Vilani houses the third child inherits - many other types of succession like tanistry, rota, and elective are also practiced. Bloodlines are not the only criteria.

The point I was making regarding Margaret's gestation(1) of Alkhalikoi heirs was that it was another example of Margaret fighting the last war. Margaret and her advisors are looking back to how Arbellatra won the last civil war and are following that playbook.

The trouble is that this war is a different game. Showcasing how normal things are in your little corner of the Imperium in the hopes that the Moot will elect you Empress ignores that fact that the Moot no longer exists.


1 - I don't believe for one nanosecond that Margaret actually carried and gave birth to those heirs.

 

[Kilgs]

The point I was making regarding Margaret's gestation(1) of Alkhalikoi heirs was that it was another example of Margaret fighting the last war. Margaret and her advisors are looking back to how Arbellatra won the last civil war and are following that playbook.

1 - I don't believe for one nanosecond that Margaret actually carried and gave birth to those heirs.

Agreed on both counts! She was trying to establish another link, based on formality and tradition, to a throne that was only going to be taken by violence. She might have been a good logistician and maybe even a decent plotter but she was way behind the times.

PS-Why did the Vermene turn on her? Never got that and haven't read an explanation. I assume as IRIS or others were becoming more of an influence on her OR she was always supposed to be a puppet for a Tukera takeover (something I have mused at times...) and then actually started acting/thinking like she was in control.

 

[Whipsnade]

Agreed on both counts! She was trying to establish another link, based on formality and tradition, to a throne that was only going to be taken by violence. She might have been a good logistician and maybe even a decent plotter but she was way behind the times.

Bingo. Give the man a cigar.

Making matters worse, Margaret and her advisors are echoing Arbellatra's actions without understanding Abellatra's thinking.

Even before we got the behind the scenes story in AotI, I can't imagine anyone with an IQ over room temperature in Celsius believing the story that Arbellatra was going to end the Civil War, act as Regent, and then meekly hand over the Iridium Throne to whatever descendant of Cleon that Moot might be able to dredge up. Arbellatra knew from the beginning that, absent slipping on the soap first, she'd eventually shift from Regent to Empress. She knew the Zhunastu bloodline no longer mattered so the entire Regent angle was a just a way to get everyone who mattered comfortable with the idea of Arbellatra running things.

Margaret, on the other hand, thinks bloodlines still matter and that acting as the guardian of the Alkhalikoi bloodline will put her on the Throne. She's aping the words and actions without comprehending the thinking behind them.

PS-Why did the Vermene turn on her?

Meta-game answer? The Endless Rebellion.

For whatever reason, they wanted the Rebellion to run on like the Energizer Bunny. Everything plausible, implausible, and outright suspender snapping flows from that decision. Too many factions lasting too long? Endless Rebellion. Vargr and Aslan invasions despite being impossible by MT's own setting materials? Endless Rebellion. The Solomani bogging down? No alliances between moderate factions? Antares flip flopping and staying unified? Every decision and event being the worst possible one? Anything which makes no freakin' sense whatsoever? Endless Rebellion.

In-game excuse? Tukera and every megacorp but the Vilani ones fractured just like the Imperium did. Tukera fell apart and the bulk of Vermene's assets sided with a faction which opposed to the faction which supported Margaret.

 

[Condottiere]

Bloodlines can be rebred into the ruling house, pretty much what Henry Tudor does when he marries Elizabeth of York.

While his legitimacy can be questioned, his progenys' won't be.