Dickson or Pournelle

[DrSkull]

I've just re-read Jerry Pournelle's (and S.M. Stirling's) Falkenberg and Sparta stories, and Gordon R. Dickson's Tacitics of Mistake, Dorsai and Spirit of Dorsai.

I was wondering which of these two authors people prefer.
(of course the real answer is both)

On the one hand, Dickson tells a story of huge scope in a small number of pages, without it seeming a small story. On the other, the whole pyschic powers/alternate laws element I find to be distracting.

Pournelle's Sparta stories however really resonate with the current world problems with terrorism. He really nails the disgusting depravity of the terroristic mind and what it means to civilized men.

Pournelle's accounts of tactics seem to be trying to capture the reality of the near past and present, while Dickson seems to try to open something new.

Anyway, who else could I talk to about this than the people here?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

To be fair I've never read any of dickenson's stuff so...

I'm out.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Potential flamage here, but I'll try to keep it as non-incendiary as possible.

My preferrenc eis for Pournelle and Niven (i.e. Mote in God's Eye and to a much lesser extent The Gripping hand). I think Niven takes the edge off some of Pournelle's more simple-minded politics. I really can't read the later Co-Dominium books wherein everyone with liberal politics is either a traitor or a dupe. And Niven also seems better at pushing the technology, or at elast not pinning it down to the point of being obviously out of date. There are places in the Pournelle books where it seems like he's falling behind even the state of the art when he wrote the books, much less a reasonable projection into the future.

I'm not sure what to make of Dickinson. His early books are good, but a bit short on personality, IMO. The later ones are flat out weird, and a bit too New Age (or something) for me. The ones like Young Bleys just lost me.

In the same basic genre, I'd actually opt for Bujold these days. Not quite so much military action in all the books, but much better characterization. I'm reading Memory and it's almost got me choked up in a couple of places.

 

[William]

Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
Potential flamage here, but I'll try to keep it as non-incendiary as possible.

In the same basic genre, I'd actually opt for Bujold these days. Not quite so much military action in all the books, but much better characterization. I'm reading Memory and it's almost got me choked up in a couple of places.

I'm pretty much in agreement overall. I like the early Dorsaii books, but the the later ones do are odder. Not quite as bad as "Number of the Beast" but still.

And you're right - Pournelle needs a co-author to try to keep him focused on the story, though that doesn't always help.

But Bujold is far and away the best of the current crop. The most recent book "Diplomatic Immunity" is exquisite and the one before it "A Civil Campaign" is hilarious. I find MTU reflects her universe more and more as time passes.

William

 

[dean]

I am GMing a CJ Cherryh "Company Wars" period game with an emphasis on role-play using CT as my ruleset.

The ships don't match up at all, but since it is not a gearhead-type campaign it doesn't matter much.

Pournelle is OK. I never liked Dickson's stuff. H Beam Piper is pretty good IMO. I need to get to the bookstore and check out this Bujold person, I suspect....

Dean

 

[Uncle Bob]

When I was in school I was very impressed with Dickson's The Tactics of Mistake.

I have to agree that Dickson was better at thinking "outside the box", but he was never as believable in detail as Pournelle. Of course Pournelle has "seen the elephant".
(Still, Dickson's "Dally gun" was a lot like the new OICW.)

A couple of stories in the same vein are Cold Cash War by Asprin and Computer War by Mack Reynolds. But especially I like Robert Frezza's stories like A Small Colonial War and Fire in a Faraway Place.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
When I was in school I was very impressed with Dickson's The Tactics of Mistake.

I have to agree that Dickson was better at thinking "outside the box", but he was never as believable in detail as Pournelle. Of course Pournelle has "seen the elephant".
(Still, Dickson's "Dally gun" was a lot like the new OICW.)

A couple of stories in the same vein are Cold Cash War by Asprin and Computer War by Mack Reynolds. But especially I like Robert Frezza's stories like A Small Colonial War and Fire in a Faraway Place.

__________________________________
Three cheers for Frezza!!!YUS! Cold cash War was also good.

In the Dickson vs Pournelle...I choose Pournelle. But then, I'm biased, having met and talked nooks with him at Cons...(ANd we have all his stuff).
Shameless suck up? Nahh. I look good military-political Sci-Fi.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Hmmm. well if this thread is not just a vs. b. here's my top ten.

Bujold - been in love with her work and addicted to her characters since I read 'The warrior's apprentice' over ten years ago. her newest stuff (epecially A civil Campaign) gives writers outside the military genre (ie Georgette Heyer) a run for their money.

HB Piper - To bad he capped himself. Suicide is a stupid waste.

Pournelle,Drake - Jerry Pournelle and David Drake have always had an even heat (with me) for hard core 'this is reality bub' military sci fi.

David Weber, Roland Green, Harry Turtledove: Their characters tend to be a little more cardboard/contrived but they do the grand sweep of battle well. Green collaborated with pournelle on the middle two Janisaries novels, and with Carr on a manufactured sequel to Piper's Lord Kalvan of otherwhen. His Starcruiser Shenendoah series has a definite traveler:military feel and is worth a passing read. Weber and Turtledove, weber's Naval space opera's have been well described as "if CS Forester wrote Star Wars" and Turtledove is the acknowledged (by the literary/publishing pundits) 'master of alternative history'

is that ten??? hmmm

Nearly forgot Cherryh put her somewhere in the top 3 or 4. Some of her stuff I'd rate as better and/or more travelleresque than some of Pournelle's.

 

[themink]

I must admit that the comparison between Bujold and Heyer hadn't occured to me before.

Bujold's situations seem more believeable but I prefer heyer's characters. I suppose, for characters, I would go out to Austen, but I often prefer heyer because it is "lighter".

I was also suprised to see someone else who reads such diverse writers as Drake and Heyer. There must be good writers in every genre, but life is too short to find them all.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

To be fair I've read only two Heyer novels. 'Pistols for two' and another one that revolved around a couple trying to get together despite the whirlwind of Victorian society pulling them this way and that.

A Civil Campaign, I assume from the dedication ("For Jane, Charlotte, Georgette and Dorothy -- Long may they rule"),-deliberately- draws on that comedy of manners romp.

When I want a good victorian era novel I usually pick a murder mystery by ______ (my god I forget her name!) Her 'Thomas and Charlotte Pitt' novels (set in the late Victorian)and her Stories involving former Police Inspector Monk (set post crimea) ROCK. I can't believe I forgot her name...

My reading tastes, though dominated by sci fi (especially 'hard' sci fi of a military bent), are actually quite ecletic. At the very least, I've sampled everything from harelequin romances to a couple of Harold Robins' to Louis L'amour to Terry Pratchet.

If it catches my eye, I'll read it. (assuming I have time.)

 

[Father Fletch]

(.02 cr incoming!)
I have to concur with all the Dickson (early works) kudos. He always set the standard for me on how we can all be human and yet completely different.
HB Piper (as some of my early posts indicated) has been, for me, the man who put the polish on MTU. I always hoped that one of the alternate universes he postulated had him still living and with a huge back catalog of published work that was still being read. Perhaps he even wrote some Traveller material
Drake and the "Hammers Slammers" showed me what Striker was meant to be.
Pournelle and Niven in the "Mote" and "Hand" and "King David’s Spaceship" set the stage for how the Naval/Noble connection really worked.
Pournelle and Sterling give a good example of how well TL8-10 military technology and tactics work.
PLUG HERE: Sterling’s "Island in the Sea of Time" series gives a good example of TL7-8 people thrown into a TL1-2 situation will make changes and adapt.
Bujuold and her Universe are a fun read; as well she covers the issues of genetic engineering and its social consequences without departing on a huge post-human tirade or bent. Her combat scenes are well written and there are definite consequences to actions. I like her nobles, too.
I have read the first two Honor Harrington novels and I liked what I read.
The Chris Bunch/Alan Cole "Sten" series was a great read about a very unconventional warrior in a huge star spanning empire. The tech is very space opera, though they do use lots and lots of BIG missiles.
Too many others to think about now, though Tom Clancy does sometimes give me techno thriller ideas that I can plug into Traveller.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I prefer Jerry Pournelle but also like Dickson and Drake.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
[QB
I have read the first two Honor Harrington novels and I liked what I read.
[/QB]

THe first three or four of these were quite good. I think they go downhill rapidly after that. The French revolution analogy is pressed far too hard (did we need Rob S. Pierre as head of the Committee for Public Safety? Really?) and Harringoptn's feats become increasingly improbable.

I think Weber would have done better to leave the political decision-making largely off-stage. C.S. Forrester didn't think it necessary to show us the parlimentary debates that sent Hornblower to Coppenhagen, after all.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I'm affraid that's probably correct.

I read the Harrington Novels now becuase I'm hooked on the characters not because i find them anywhere near as believable as I did at the start.

The early ones are good. The later ones are fun if you liked the early ones. Don't start with the later ones or you'll be wondering at the intelligence/taste of the people who reccomended Honor to you.