Depicting Starships...

[Rigel Stardin]

Everyone knows how elaborate my drawings are. So if I were to depict a Traveller ship such as the Empress Marava with a few element changes but use the stats from any Traveller version, would the ship still be in canon or an entirely different design?

The Gazelle Class Escort I posted last year is entirely different from the drawing I’ve seen so I know the difference between what is mine (non-canon) and canon. The second question is how much can you change from the original drawing before the drawing becomes non canon?

An example of this would be the Empress Marava doesn’t have a life support depiction in the drawing. A second example is limiting the access to the upper engineering space by only depicting one access point from the lower deck. Would this ship now be considered a recondition ship or still cannon?

I know the Marava posted in the art gallery is canon because GDW is printed on the picture but I have seen at least two other version in my internet wanderings. They depicted different drives and equipment that are not similar to the drawing given to us by GDW, yet the stats and layout are the same.

The March Harrier and the Subsidized Merchant is a good example of two ships based on the same design only the outward appearance is slightly different. I have depicted both but the difference I gave them was the Subsidized Merchant a rounded front and left the March Harrier close the depiction in Spinward March Campaign.

These questions intrigue me because I’d like to post the designs but don’t know if canon allows for updated views of ships design 30 years ago?

 

[steventirey1985]

"Canon", not "cannon".

 

[Hyphen]

Think about all the customisation of vehicles today. Given that,plus the "smart coating" able to change a ship's external appearance, plus the sorts of tinkering (a la Han Solo) that you could imagine a free trader's crew getting up to, you could justify almost anything you like.

I've seen house floorplans that have the same externals but different internals. Given the length & breadth of the Imperium, even Impy-standard designs are going to get shaken up a bit.

Unless you are a Vilani, of course.

 

[Omnivore]

Consider, for example, variations on the Type Y Yacht.

There are quite likely cheap knock-off designs that, while looking like the Type Y and more or less performing like one, are built as cheaply as possible.

On the other hand, there are probably high tech upgraded variants that look the same but have better performance and spare no expense for luxury yet attract no more attention than a standard Type Y.

Then there would likely be other variations on the basic theme that would emphasize their difference by using a completely different configuration - for those who want to stand out from the crowd.

Like today's corporate jets - the Lear might be a standard, but their are many variants and competitors.

 

[BytePro]

...
These questions intrigue me because I’d like to post the designs but don’t know if canon allows for updated views of ships design 30 years ago?

FFE allows fan material based on canon. Such isn't 'canon' unless Marc Miller says so.

Canon from Merrian-Webster dictionary: 'a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>'. Marc Miller is the sanctioning/accepting agent for Traveller.

Making it compatible (stats) with canon works for most fans. Calling it a variant (Type Xa) helps folks use it beside other official and un-official designs.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

BP's pretty much covered it.

By definition, only officially published or recognised work is canon. That doesn't stop you creating variants, though - in somewhere as big and old as the Imperium there are bound to be some (there are many canonical examples). If people like them, they may use them ITTU, but unless you can persuade Marc or Mongoose to approve them they'll never become canon.

You're free to publish the designs here or elsewhere, but you can't sell them.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

First off, when have you ever known me to sell something? As much as my wife would like me to and in a sense it would validate my drawing skill (or lack thereof) there just isn’t that sort of money to be made off my drawings. As I’ve stated several times, this is a hobby of mine. Knowing people use my drawing in their games or for inspiration gives me some satisfaction. Trust me, if I could quit my day job and do this for a living I would. But what are the chances of that? I’d rather allow people who still play the game use them for their own enjoyment.

It’s good to know that I can post these studies here because I’ve always felt copying another person’s design or artwork is wrong. Studies allow me to see how ships go together and create new rooms for my stamp library. Nor would I ever claim my designs of standard Traveller ships as one of my own or make a profit from it.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[Omnivore]

You're free to publish the designs here or elsewhere, but you can't sell them.

Wrong. He owns the copyright on his original drawings, and thus can legally sell them. What he cannot do is use the various trademarks associated with Traveller without approval.

[Addendum]
Where things get confusing is with derived works. If someone were to take a published and copyrighted drawing, make a minor change, and release the changed drawing - that drawing would be a derived work and under both the original copyright *and* the copyright of the author of the change. Laymen consistently get confused in the difference in the idea of copyright protection of intellectual property and the non-copyrightable idea underlying, or expressed by, the intellectual property. Ideas are not copyrightable.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Okay, granted, if he changed it enough and didn't mention anything about Traveller he could probably get away with it, but that'd kinda be defeating the object...

 

[Whipsnade]

These questions intrigue me because I’d like to post the designs but don’t know if canon allows for updated views of ships design 30 years ago?

As the others have alreayd pointed out, as log as you're not selling anything you can post hundreds of your version of canonical designs. The 'net is full of deckplans depicting various people's take on various canonical designs. And, speaking for myself, I'd love to see your version of canonical designs from whatever Traveller canonical ship design system you choose.

I've wrote it in the past and I'll repeat it here again: As superb, as detailed, as intricate, and as beautiful - yes, beautiful - your previously posted designs are, their utility for use in a Traveller session is greatly limited because your designs do not employ Traveller component volumes and technologies.

The prospect of a Rigel Stardin diagram of a subbie, Beowulf, or Marava being posted should make anyone here quiver with anticipation. If I may make a suggestion? The 800 dTon Broadsword mercenary cruiser would be an excellent project. While the design is correct, the original deckplans in A:7 are horribly broken and easily the worst officially published deckplans prior to T4. I know of only two attempts to correct the design's deckplans, one easily found at Tanuki's site and the other not so easily found in a GT soucebook.

Whatever design you choose, I'm certain we all enjoy it.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I'm putting the finishing touches on the Empress Marava and should have it posted here shortly. Thanks for the glowing review Whipnade.

As far as the Broadsword Mercenary Cruiser, I'll have to do some digging. I have a plan I got off the web printed out somewhere in my file cabinet. Circular designs are alot hard for me to do. I've experimented with some designs but they're a pain in the butt to construct.

I should be posting the Empress here in a day or two...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I'm using the drawing posted the art gallery for the design of the Empress Marava.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1187

The question I have about that drawing is: Is the cargo container to scale? I'm assuming it is because it's planned draw in it's own little box? If so, everyone is going to be in for a big suprize.

If someone has his or her copy of the Empress handy, can you tell me what the cargo bay height is and the overall ship's height is.

Edit: Adding inline image

 

[Whipsnade]

Thanks for the glowing review Whipnade.

You've earned that glowing review several times over.

Circular designs are alot hard for me to do.

Then ditch the spherical hull. There's a currently active thread discussing how poorly designed the Broadsword is (an opinion I don't completely agree with) so folks will be looking more for an 800dTon ship carrying two cutters and a platoon and less for a spherical version of the same.

Whatever you decide the plans will be well worth waiting for.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I’m about to post the Empress Marava study. I want everyone to look at Fig-1. This is the deck study for the drawing, based on the squares given in the design posted in the Image Gallery. Refer to post I made above for link to original deck plans.

The drawing indicates the Marava the overall height of the ship to be 6 meters. Assuming the cargo container is drawn to scale on the original drawing, the fuel tank is not a full deck. Both the hull and its frame are very thin in these areas or the deck plans are way off. I’ve shown the frame in the living area (Right side of Fig-1 with depiction of man) to be larger because of grav-plates, lighting, plumbing and electrical systems in the floor and ceiling.

I didn’t complete the exterior view because there are better depictions out there than my simple planned views.

 

[far-trader]

I'm using the drawing posted the art gallery for the design of the Empress Marava.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1187

The question I have about that drawing is: Is the cargo container to scale?

No. As the text notes the cargo container is 54kl (4tons, nominally 3m x 3m x 6m). It does not look to scale in that drawing and being separate from the deckplans I wouldn't trust it to be.

I'm assuming it is because it's planned draw in it's own little box? If so, everyone is going to be in for a big suprize.

No surprise here You'd only surprise me IF you found a published canon design that was anywhere near accurate.

The Empress you linked to is a perfect example. The bounding box (dimensions on the sheet - not including the fin) is over 500 tons. Yep, 250 percent the supposed tonnage. Even allowing the bounding box adds to the actual tonnage (very little in this design given the shape) it is probably 200 percent the supposed tonnage, which is what I recall coming up with when counting squares ages ago. And they still can't make the stuff fit in as designed.

As for the cargo bay height, I seem to recall that making it 4.5m high (a deck and a half), leaving half a deck above for fuel, gets the cargo close to the right size. Of course 4.5m decks are NOT standard so it would be pretty much wasted volume. Depending on which build you're using (yes, supplement 7 is so broken it has mixed Book 2 1st and 2nd build rules, or perhaps that is a feature, 2 designs for the price of one... ) ... sigh... anyway, ignore the standard plan except for inspiration of general shape and layout. It is badly scaled... oh, yeah, that might work too. There was a very nice layout of the Beowulf that was also 400tons instead of 200tons. One suggested easy "fix" was to change the scale to 1m instead of 1.5m squares. Never mind that this then made the beds 10feet long... or was it that they were 10feet long in the original scale? Who cares. It was badly broken and obviously so to anyone who looked past the glitz. Like so many published deckplans.

I have a tonnage corrected (iirc pretty close) version of the Empress a friend did years ago around somewhere. If not I also have my own I did years ago, and thought was lost but found again (and maybe lost again). I'll try to dig them up to post (I'm sure I have before but the links are probably dead) but my laptop died last night (#$@&%!! ) so I'm dealing with that (much swearing and futility) at the moment.

 

[far-trader]

I haven't looked for mine yet (the lost, found, lost again?) but found my friend's without much digging. It's posted to the file library under Deckplans here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=393786#post393786

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Thank you for the information Far-Trader.

I finished checking the scale on the cargo container depicted in Fig-1 and it matches the 3x3x6 meters so the original drawing is correct. I've also looked at your friends drawing and see the vast difference between the two.

Now I'm begining to see why my ships are always larger than Traveller designs.

As I've stated before the only rule I follow is the 1.5x1.5x3 meter square layout for my rooms and other components. I've always though my depictions were larger because of scale issues but after seeing the cargo container matching grid in the original deck plans, I'm beginnng to think my ships are closer to Traveller deckplans than I thought...

 

[far-trader]

Thank you for the information Far-Trader.

You're welcome

Scaling and size issues quite aside it's the style and look of your deckplans I like, and the completeness of components. It shows a degree of attention and thought I appreciate. I can forgive strict adherence to tonnage depiction for that ...as long as it's close enough* to not be obvious at a glance

* CT's 10-20% over or even a little more is fine with me, the too often 200% or more over is flatly unforgivable imo

 

[Rigel Stardin]

The question for me now, is whether or not I should attempt a redesign of the Marava to get it close to the actual tonnage? It is one of those ships which form the core of the TU. The deck plans I've seen on the web all follow this basic design and size. Would it be a crime to redo the plans so it at least gets it close? And then again, I'm tampering with history here and there is bound to be friction between those who see how much an actual depiction would differ from the original?

 

[far-trader]

... Would it be a crime to redo the plans so it at least gets it close?

HELL NO! I'll give you a medal!! I'll raise a statue in your honour!!! I'll make you famous across the Imperium!!!!



...but any version is welcome, variety is the spice of life