Defining Traveller sector maps

[Bishop Odo]

I have read most of the 3d mapping threads, but for the most part to my knowledge, no one has ever defined just what the sector maps define. On one hand, are they a 2d representation of jump space, where the entire z axis, north and south of the galaxy, of a 3d map is compressed to a single plane? If this is the case, shouldn’t there be more systems? I mean the galaxy is what, 600 parsecs wide, so we are missing a few. Evidence seem to be relatively contradictory if I’m dragging up an old topic please direct me apparently I have missed it.

 

[JustinInOz]

Mapping, Reality and Bits of Paper

As near as I can tell, the maps and their format are an artifact of "what fits on an 8.5x11 piece of paper". They don't have anything to do with the actual parameters of the galaxy. That is why a subsector is 8*10.

The idea that they are a 2-d representation of jump space is entiresly an post hoc justification.

1 hex equal to 1 parsec is pretty arbitrary.

As soon as you try to fit mapping into a realistic framework, you are jumping into the deep end of the pool.

It is pretty lonely here.

The maps, as they are, represent a convienient surface to play on. If you look further than that, you are looking behind the curtain in the room where the Wizard of Oz is.

 

[inexorabletash]

The OTU galaxy is one parsec thick. *shrug*

Having sector maps represent some 2D topology of Jump space is a cool idea (Holographic Principle, anyone?) but there is enough data in the OTU canon corellating the geometry of regular space to that of Jump space that I don't think you can have both a 3D galaxy and the OTU.

(For example: STL travel to the Islands, the Empress wave/LONGBOW, the Darrian Maghiz (sp?), recovery from misjumps, etc)

 

[far-trader]

IIRC canonically they are in fact an accurate(1) representation of space. It really isn't too realistic of course, for this reality that is(2). To attempt to make it more rational many fixes and suggestions have been made.

The Subway-Map model is one. That is: Only the systems of interest are mapped and the layout is organizational rather than exact. There are unmapped systems throughout space, nobody goes there, nobody lives there. I don't like it much (raises at least as many questions as it purports to fix) but others do.

(1) To some unqualified degree anyway. I don't believe the systems are separated by exactly even multiples of parsecs for one thing. IMTU a J# is anywhere between +/- half a parsec of that #. J1 is 0.5 to 1.5 parsecs, etc.

(2) It could be the reality of the Traveller universe is quite alien to our own. Where space is relatively flat(3) and systems are evenly distributed at multiples of 1 parsec distances.

It really comes down to it being a game. That's all. So there's no real wrong answer to rationalizing it for anyone's game.

(3) One of my own rationalities works with this. Normal space is identical to reality. Jump space however only works on a relatively flat section through normal space. So the systems mapped are those that can be reached by jump space. There are many systems above and below our (mapped) jump space slice but the only way to get to them is by long slow STL drives or misjumps. So they aren't mapped, nobody goes there, nobody lives there... as far as anyone here knows. Yes, it is much like the Subway Map model.

Why long slow STL? Because thrusters only work (IMTU) near strong gravity fields. So you could use them to build up a decent delta-v and then coast, or you use conventional rockets at much lower thrust over long periods. Either way it is hundreds of years or longer to cross a parsec. Once there though you'd have access to a different jump slice.

Misjumps may kick you out of this jump slice and into an adjacent (or further) one. You're as good as destroyed as far as anyone is concerned since getting back to this jump slice is unlikely.

As for the size of the subsectors and sectors it is just a mapping convention. Some borders are defined by other polities. Some by natural divides. And some are simple straight lines drawn on the map. Just like real life maps for Earth. Sure the real reason is the size of a page and an arbitraryish size and number of hexes that will fit on it, but even that isn't much different from how it works for real maps.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Either way it is hundreds of years or longer to cross a parsec.

hundreds of years may be a few orders of magnitude out considering both reality (current ion engines) and canon which has settlements dozens of parsecs away being created by STL ships .... and ships entering the Spinward Marches in the 1120 era from Earch after only what 2500 years ?

 

[aramis]

It is possible, given the drive assuptions for T-plates in T4 as canonical, to get to at least 90PSL.
Ignoring relativity:
300,000,000m/sec for C, divide by 60m/s/s = 5,000,000sec = 57 days 20 hours 53m 20 sec

so, given relativity, you're looking at a year to get to major fractions of C, about 75%, at which point you're looking 4.35 years per parsec. (in case you're curious, I needed this info for my current ATU.)

 

[Bishop Odo]

An interesting range of comments, Traveller brings with it a lot of history and remembering Joe Fugate comments about it, the game, being designed backwards we have a lot of arbitrary restrictions of size and dimensionality created from both its wargamming background and physical size of the LBB.

Maybe this discussion is a dead end, after all it has been discussed before, I was simply trying to find a way to preserve the history, contiguous boarders, and the existing cannon that I own, while “fixing the map. As too looking behind the curtain, I do because my players will, and if I’m there staring back at them. I can give them a more satisfying answer.

 

[whitedalek]

has anyone ever tried using multiple map concepts at the same time ?

starting with the standard hex map - and adding either Ancient Stargates, or Starfire / WarpWar / Imperium style jump points ?

 

[aramis]

has anyone ever tried using multiple map concepts at the same time ?

starting with the standard hex map - and adding either Ancient Stargates, or Starfire / WarpWar / Imperium style jump points ?

Yes, in a limited fashion... GDW did. See Adv 12.

 

[whitedalek]

Yes, in a limited fashion... GDW did. See Adv 12.

yep, and Ancient TL 20+ stargates are way cool... : )

and i remember the design section in FF&S had stargates

but i was wondering if anyone had actually used stargates as a background element in a campaign, or even converted another campaign setting that has used them (FadingSuns, BattleLords, Mekton, Incursion, Babylon 5, Core Command) into an ATU Traveller campaign ?

 

[far-trader]

I know I've read somebody's posted notes about their homebrew campaign with such somewhere on the various forums. But I can't recall who or where

 

[whitedalek]

maybe they'll show up, or post... : )

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

...as he steps out from behind the curtain...

I know I've read somebody's posted notes about their homebrew campaign with such somewhere on the various forums. But I can't recall who or where

I am one of those who has done so.

My stargates are ancient artifacts, which were victims of an unknown (to those in the present) catastrophe. Some of them are still around but malfunctioning.

In full operation, you can get from system A to Z in the same time it takes to jump from system A to B...IF you have a proper series of gatelink handshake codes. Can you imagine getting halfway across the galaxy in one week?

I don't make it easy for our stalwart Terrans to get access to that technology, if you are wondering about game balance.

 

[whitedalek]

they're adventurers...

if they mostly survive the trip home, it's probably balanced enough... ; )

 

[leo knight]

Jeff Rients had some amusing thoughts at his blog:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/06/fun-with-jumpspace.html

Dave Grossman and Leo Frankowski have a couple of novels set in "Two Space", which is all the galaxy squished flat into a two-dimensional flatland.

Here's a link:

http://www.webscription.net/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=441&SEName=the-two-space-war

Here's a description of Two Space:

http://www.webscription.net/chapters/1011250036/1011250036.htm

Enjoy!

p.s. Be sure to read the comments at Jeff's blog page. Some of them are even more delicious.

 

[whitedalek]

the fun with jumpspace article was pretty good, maybe i'll recycle an old map system i had (with multiple concentric torus linked with stargates)

Two Space War sounds a wee bit like a Space:1889 campaign variant... ; )