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T4 Only: Deck plans

snrdg082102

SOC-14 1K
Hello all,

I've done a check through T4 Books 1, 2, B, and D looking for instructions on drawing deck plans without finding anything.

Can someone point me in the right direction please?
 
Morning GypsyComet,

T4 was done in such a rush that some things were simply forgotten.

Thank you for letting me know that my search gremlins were probably not responsible for not finding the topic of deck plans in T4.

I suspected that a section on deck plans may have been left out because everyone knows that they are 1.5 m x 3 m x 3 m or per TNE Brilliant Lances 2 m x 2 m x 3.5 m or was supposed to go into an planned update the never got published.
 
Hello Ulsyus,

If you want to get T4 deckplans copies then you can get them in the Starships book that can be picked up pretty cheaply at Drivethru RPG

Yep, T4 Book 2 Starships has deck plans and so does T4 Book B Naval Architect's Manual.

In T4 Book 2 Starships the size and scale denoted by a square varies.

The rescue ball on page 7 one square about two inches by two inches represents two meters.

The square for the launch on page nine is about 0.5 by 0.5 inches representing 1 meter.

The luxury liner's deck plan on page 27 doesn't show any scale square.

Page 29 has the deck plan for a free trader with the 0.5 by 0.5 inch square representing two meters.

On page 34 the square is approximately 0.25 by 0.25 inches and represents two meters.

In CT the scale is one square is 1.5 meters regardless of the size of the two-dimensional square. The height is two 1.5 meter squares or 3 meters. One ton using two-dimensional squares is one square wide representing 1.5 meters by two squares long being equal to 3 meters.

T4 Starships has three sizes of squares representing two different measurements.

Which is the right scale?
 
As long as you know which scale the plans are using, both 1.5m and 2m are "right".

There was some discussion when T4 rolled out about the floor scale for deckplans, and I think it ended up being 2m grid. A 1m grid is no different, really, you just have to know that and count squares the right way.

Note that the Starships book for T4 is pretty bad. Only a few of the plans are all that useful. The SSDS section in back isn't bad, but the example ships vary from mostly useful (the A2) to just useless (The Scout).
 
Hello GypsyComet,

As long as you know which scale the plans are using, both 1.5m and 2m are "right".

There was some discussion when T4 rolled out about the floor scale for deckplans, and I think it ended up being 2m grid. A 1m grid is no different, really, you just have to know that and count squares the right way.

Note that the Starships book for T4 is pretty bad. Only a few of the plans are all that useful. The SSDS section in back isn't bad, but the example ships vary from mostly useful (the A2) to just useless (The Scout).

You are right knowing the scale is half the battle, however in CT all of the deck plans I have recently looked through all used 1.5 meters per square and 1.5 meters in a cube.

In T4 Starships some of the deck plans a square is 1 m x 1 m or 2 m x 2 m. A cube is either 1 m x 1 m x 1 m or 2 m x 2 m x 2 m.

T4 Book 2 Starships is not pretty bad it is just a bit rough around the edges something similar to CT Book 2 and Book 5 editions.;-)

I have a copy of the revised copy of SSDS and I'll agree it is not bad from what I can see so far.
 
T4 Book 2 Starships is not pretty bad it is just a bit rough around the edges something similar to CT Book 2 and Book 5 editions.;-)

As long as you ignore the claim that it is a book with deckplans, sure.

I have partial efforts into rescuing several of the deckplans from that book, as QSDS and the BBOH were my preferred design regime for a while, but it has been a while since I looked at them.
 
Morning GypsyComet,

As long as you ignore the claim that it is a book with deckplans, sure.

I have partial efforts into rescuing several of the deckplans from that book, as QSDS and the BBOH were my preferred design regime for a while, but it has been a while since I looked at them.

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you between rebuilding a spreadsheet and the real world my time flew while not having fun.

Next, I just noticed that the web gremlins got me again.

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
T4 Book 2 Starships is not pretty bad it is just a bit rough around the edges something similar to CT Book 2 and Book 5 editions.;-)

The CT Book 2 and Book 5 editions is missing a word, that word is first. Here is the way I thought I had typed the sentence.

T4 Book 2 Starships is not pretty bad it is just a bit rough around the edges something similar to CT Book 2 and Book 5 first editions.;-)

I believe QSDS means Quick Ship Design System, unfortunately I'm clueless about BBOH. What is BBOH?
 
Deckplan scale for T4.

Which is the right scale?

Mr. Rux,

I have a couple of answers to your question, I certainly hope they help clarify things for you, instead of muddle things up even more.

1) May I make the argument that the purpose of having deck plans in the first place is so you may use miniatures of some sort in order to help determine a character's location during combat? And, I assume, that you would prefer using deck plans instead of the rules using a grid to determine location as presented in the T4 combat rules.

In the T4 combat rules, no "scale" is really given. Ranges are given in meters. No matter what scale you choose, you presumably will have to divide those range numbers by whichever scale you choose to determine how many squares are "short" range, "close" range, "long" range, etc. Similarly, the T4 rules state a character may walk 15m per combat round, or run 30m. Again, translating that information into how many squares a character can move is simple division.

2) In the Naval Architect's Manual I have never found anything that definitively states "1 square = 1.5m." However, (never mind this is the scale they have used in just about every other Traveller product,) if you look at the beds as they are drawn, they are well over 1 square long, but under 2 squares. Assuming a bed is about 2m long for an adult human to lie down in, then that would suggest the scale is greater than 1m per square and less than 2m per square. 1.5m per square would be right between those two extremes. I would suggest that would be the scale of the plans that are drawn in the Naval Architect's Manual.

If so, than that would obviously make the following true:

A character could walk 10 squares per combat round.
A character could run 20 squares per combat round.
 
Hmmm... Last year I bought the pdf download T4 Starships which has a number of deck plans.

There are small squares on each drawing labelled with scale. The lavels are 1m, 1.5m, and 2m.

These are scout boats, rescue balls, liners of different sizes, patrol cruiser, etc.
 
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Integration of deck plans with T4.

Hmmm... Last year I bought the pdf download T4 Starships which has a number of deck plans.

There are small squares on each drawing labelled with scale. The lavels are 1m, 1.5m, and 2m.

These are scout boats, rescue balls, liners of different sizes, patrol cruiser, etc.

You know, sometimes my mind works in strange ways, and for that I apologize. But in reading what you wrote, I suddenly realized that, in english, we use the word "scale" for so many different things -- whether it's a music scale, a fish scale, or a scale to weigh something.

The reason I bring this up is because I believe we are using the word "scale" to mean two different things. More specifically, I believe "scale" is used in two different ways in T4's Starships, and T4's Naval Architect's Manual.

Mr. Rux's origional question was:

I've done a check through T4 Books 1, 2, B, and D looking for instructions on drawing deck plans without finding anything.

Can someone point me in the right direction please?

For what it's worth, Mr. Marn's description of Starships is not completely accurate. There are small squares on some of the drawings in the supplement, and they are labeled either 1m or 2m. There is not a 1.5m box in Starships. Furthermore, there are four examples of ships in Starships that have no little box at all, and therefore are not given a scale. They are the Large Armed Freighter, the Military Frontier Cruiser, the Military Destroyer, and the Luxury Liner.

But this isn't a big deal, right? In a Rand McNally atlas of the United States there is a scale ruler in the corner. But those scales will change from state to state, because the states are different sizes. Well, these starships are different sizes, so the little ruler in the corner changes to let the reader know the relative size of each illustration as compared to another. That's the purpose of the "scale" in the Starships supplement.

I believe the little boxes in the Naval Architect's Manual serve a different purpose. They are there to establish a scale -- to establish a common scale between each and every drawing. That was the purpose behind the Naval Architect's Manual -- to be able to copy and cut different sections of a ship out, and tape them together in order to make a deck plan that characters could run around on, presumably for establishing a character's movement and location during combat.

I believe this is the crux of Mr. Rux's question. Because he's right. I can't find it in there either. Ironically, they never say exactly how large each box is in the Naval Architect's Manual, other than to say they're exactly the same. Based on the evidence I suggested above, I believe each square in the Naval Architect's Manual is 1.5m x 1.5m for each and every drawing.

They do say, in the T4 main rulebook, (p. 92,) "hull size is measured in standard displacement tons, equivalent to 14 cubic meters, or the volume of one metric ton (1000kg) of liquid hydrogen." Both as described in other editions of Traveller, and mathematically, if a square is 1.5m (long) x 1.5m (wide) x 3m (tall,) that equals 6.75 cubic meters. Double that, and you end up with 13.5 cubic meters, which is approximately the 14 cubic meters described above. Since it takes two of these 1.5m squares to equal one ton, a 100 ton starship would have approximately 200 squares for a deck plan, (including fuel.) A 1000 ton starship would have 2000 squares in its deck plan, etc.

Mr. Rux...you can do whatever you want. But to answer your question, to help point you in the right direction, I would suggest you draw your deck plans using a scale of 1 square = 1.5m = 1/2 "ton" (of starship displacement.)

This scale integrates with earlier editions of Traveller, with the movement rules described above, and the range modifiers for combat given in T4's main rulebook.

The Combat Range chart on p. 61 would become:

Range number: 0 = Contact = 0-3m = 0-2 squares = easy = 1.5d6
Range number: 1 = V. Short = 4-15m = 3-10 squares = average = 2d6
Range number: 2 = Short = 16-45m = 11-30 squares = difficult = 2.5d6
Range number: 3 = Medium = 46-150m = 31-100 squares = formidable = 3d6
Range number: 4 = Long = 151-450m = 101-300 squares = staggering = 3.5d6
Range number: 5 = V. Long = 451-1500m = 301-1000 squares = impossible = 4d6

I hope this was helpful. :)
 
The same word with multiple completely different meanings is a problem in English, and one that has tripped me up more than once.

But I can see the 1/2dton per square you detail for a 1.5m square.
 
But I can see the 1/2dton per square you detail for a 1.5m square.

That has been the standard through many editions. The assumption changed with TNE, which used 2m grid and a different spacing between decks. You could also assume that deck spacing is the same and figure out the number of additional floor grid you get instead.

For the 1.5m floor grid, a spacing from deck to deck of 3m is assumed. This means that two grid squares on the map are one displacement ton. All CT and MT plans except the Serpent Class Scout from Paranoia Press (and arguably the GDW Type A2 and DGP Type A) were done with this set of assumptions.

TNE and T4 assumed 2m floor grid and 3.5m floor spacing, so a single floor grid square was one displacement ton. The corollary is that you can get more detail by using a 1m floor grid which makes four grid squares equal one displacement ton.

T20 and Mongoose went back to 1.5m floor grid.

As long as you know what the grid measurement is, the rest falls into place.
 
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