Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Which would leave us with the Ragnar Anchorage.
Darrian TL16 fleet
- Thread starter McPerth
- Start date
Which would leave us with the Ragnar Anchorage.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I wish Bill were here.
Who were the Darrians building their fleet to defend against? Or to conquer?
No one.
They were in space for hundreds of years, they explored hundreds of worlds, and encountered nothing that could threaten them.
They settled for building colony world and created a little group not much bigger than a subsector.
They kept on exploring but encountered nothing to threaten them.
So what was the nature of the fleet that they built? We know they did build warships or do we?
The author of AM8 as with all CT books like this is an unreliable narrator and writes very much from the Imperial point of view. So warship is a modern author term, I doubt if the pre-Maghiz Darrians considered their 'military' ships as 'warships' - we know that at least 4 of the relic fleet were civilian merchants that were retrofitted with modern weapons. We know the Darrians were a very peaceful culture and that there were few wars in their recorded history.
The relic fleet is likely to have been more akin to coast guard rather than battlefleet.
Who were the Darrians building their fleet to defend against? Or to conquer?
No one.
They were in space for hundreds of years, they explored hundreds of worlds, and encountered nothing that could threaten them.
They settled for building colony world and created a little group not much bigger than a subsector.
They kept on exploring but encountered nothing to threaten them.
So what was the nature of the fleet that they built? We know they did build warships or do we?
The author of AM8 as with all CT books like this is an unreliable narrator and writes very much from the Imperial point of view. So warship is a modern author term, I doubt if the pre-Maghiz Darrians considered their 'military' ships as 'warships' - we know that at least 4 of the relic fleet were civilian merchants that were retrofitted with modern weapons. We know the Darrians were a very peaceful culture and that there were few wars in their recorded history.
The relic fleet is likely to have been more akin to coast guard rather than battlefleet.
Even though, they knew they were out there, and so building some deenses would be quite wise, as building it takes time and the moment you see the threat is not the moment to prepare for it...
Fully agreed (for a change) on this (even on the semantics, when you say they would not call their ships as warships
)
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The civilian ships could be naval auxiliaries originally.
I guess that's what most of us assume, being in the same mothball yard, though the fact they are specified in CT:AM8 as non-military design and merchants may mean otherwise...
Cr0.02
Rob's hypothesis:
Big Toothless Ships
My first reaction is to read AM8 in terms of High Guard. In that case, I see cruisers in my head. The lack of enemies is a telling point; however, a dozen cruisers might not cost much to an industrialized world with billions of people at TL16.
Then, I thought of a second possibility -- that they simply didn't have spines. This brings together both problems we've been batting around nicely: the low militarization level due to lack of threats, and yet the ancient ships still having value. That includes a few merchant hulls that may well be large.
A. No Existential Threats
AM8 goes to lengths to suggest that the Darrians had no existential threats. Neither the Zhodani nor any other big power. So, aside from showing the flag and putting down occasional Darrian uprisings (surely not common?), they don't need a powerful fleet.
B. Low Number of TL16 Hulls
They may have had a large trade/supply fleet, but most of those weren't TL16, otherwise more would have survived.
C. They Had Ships and Used Them
We do know that Bowman had a 300 ton ship.
Darrians used small starships to carry supplies and personnel to worlds, and to carry mined materials, research, and personnel back home to Darrian.
Sometimes you're carrying bulk ore, and a lot of it. In that case, you need maybe a 5,000 ton cargo hauler. So Mike's theory makes sense: Darrian could also build 5,000 ton escorts to keep the lanes safe and carry troops to put down problems.
D. What about 1105?
Skip to 1105 or so.
I'm sure y'all've quoted page 24 already, but this looks conclusive to me in context.
1. It seems clear that High Guard is being followed here: The core of any non-laughable interstellar navy in 1105 is going to be big ships.
Thus Darrian built cruiser-sized hulls.
2. Darrian had no existential threats back then, so those Big Hulls were not armed like today's Big Hulls.
Therefore I suggest they lacked spines. They also probably weren't so clustered and bristling with weapons like Imperial dreadnoughts, either.
But they were big hulls. Big enough to be cruisers, to form the core of the modern Darrian navy-which-is-supplied-with-top-of-the-line-Imperial-ships.
E. So then, Darrian did not Develop Spines
So here's one point where my mind has been changed: those pre-Maghiz Darrian warships did not originally have spines, no matter what tonnage they are, because they were completely and utterly unnecessary. In fact, I suspect that Darrian never developed them at all.
Note that this gaping hole in the military budget hints at Darrian's secret sauce: the lack of enemies let them leapfrog technologically to TL16.
/Cr0.02
Rob's hypothesis:
Big Toothless Ships
My first reaction is to read AM8 in terms of High Guard. In that case, I see cruisers in my head. The lack of enemies is a telling point; however, a dozen cruisers might not cost much to an industrialized world with billions of people at TL16.
Then, I thought of a second possibility -- that they simply didn't have spines. This brings together both problems we've been batting around nicely: the low militarization level due to lack of threats, and yet the ancient ships still having value. That includes a few merchant hulls that may well be large.
A. No Existential Threats
AM8 goes to lengths to suggest that the Darrians had no existential threats. Neither the Zhodani nor any other big power. So, aside from showing the flag and putting down occasional Darrian uprisings (surely not common?), they don't need a powerful fleet.
B. Low Number of TL16 Hulls
They may have had a large trade/supply fleet, but most of those weren't TL16, otherwise more would have survived.
C. They Had Ships and Used Them
We do know that Bowman had a 300 ton ship.
Darrians used small starships to carry supplies and personnel to worlds, and to carry mined materials, research, and personnel back home to Darrian.
Sometimes you're carrying bulk ore, and a lot of it. In that case, you need maybe a 5,000 ton cargo hauler. So Mike's theory makes sense: Darrian could also build 5,000 ton escorts to keep the lanes safe and carry troops to put down problems.
D. What about 1105?
Skip to 1105 or so.
I'm sure y'all've quoted page 24 already, but this looks conclusive to me in context.
am08 p24 said:
1. It seems clear that High Guard is being followed here: The core of any non-laughable interstellar navy in 1105 is going to be big ships.
Thus Darrian built cruiser-sized hulls.
2. Darrian had no existential threats back then, so those Big Hulls were not armed like today's Big Hulls.
Therefore I suggest they lacked spines. They also probably weren't so clustered and bristling with weapons like Imperial dreadnoughts, either.
But they were big hulls. Big enough to be cruisers, to form the core of the modern Darrian navy-which-is-supplied-with-top-of-the-line-Imperial-ships.
E. So then, Darrian did not Develop Spines
So here's one point where my mind has been changed: those pre-Maghiz Darrian warships did not originally have spines, no matter what tonnage they are, because they were completely and utterly unnecessary. In fact, I suspect that Darrian never developed them at all.
Note that this gaping hole in the military budget hints at Darrian's secret sauce: the lack of enemies let them leapfrog technologically to TL16.
/Cr0.02
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree with a lot of your points there.
I disagree with the HG paradigm being used here.
First off the Alien Modules were rooted in LBB:2 ship designs - except for the K'kree.
Second, the one canonical of sorts example we have of a Darrain like ship is the Barrekdoldin, which is 500t.
Third, the Darrian group just isn't big enough pre-Maghiz do be building all the merchants, exploration ships and a few dozen HG cruiser sized ships - all ship construction was concentrated on Darrain itself which is one of the reasons the surviving worlds couldn't maintain its ship production.
I would use the LBB:2 paradigm for ship sizes - their largest 'warships' were likely in the 1-2kt range with the typical mix of workhorse vessels in the 400-800t.
The 'warships' are likely to have been some sort of mix of coast guard and exploration/research - the closest thing to original Star Fleet we are likely to find in the OTU
I disagree with the HG paradigm being used here.
First off the Alien Modules were rooted in LBB:2 ship designs - except for the K'kree.
Second, the one canonical of sorts example we have of a Darrain like ship is the Barrekdoldin, which is 500t.
Third, the Darrian group just isn't big enough pre-Maghiz do be building all the merchants, exploration ships and a few dozen HG cruiser sized ships - all ship construction was concentrated on Darrain itself which is one of the reasons the surviving worlds couldn't maintain its ship production.
I would use the LBB:2 paradigm for ship sizes - their largest 'warships' were likely in the 1-2kt range with the typical mix of workhorse vessels in the 400-800t.
The 'warships' are likely to have been some sort of mix of coast guard and exploration/research - the closest thing to original Star Fleet we are likely to find in the OTU
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. As far as I know, military technology advancement tends to require conflict.
2. The Darrians might have stumbled across a trove of ancient technology, and reversed engineered the items there.
3. One of which got out of control.
2. The Darrians might have stumbled across a trove of ancient technology, and reversed engineered the items there.
3. One of which got out of control.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
No, there are many examples of technological advancement that have nothing to to with the military - radio is one that spring to mind immediately.
All the evidence we have says the Darrians (with integrated Solomani) advanced very quickly to TL14, they then took a few hundred years to advance to TL16/17 and had projections to go further. No mention of Ancient tech reverse engineering.
The Maghiz event does not make any sense as presented... an EMP that can wipe out electronics at 6 light years (and you have had 6 years to prepare) would have caused more damage to the Darrian system than the solar flares.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Applications that can demonstrate a more or less immediate return on investment tend to attract funding and resources.
If you feel that this assists you in neutralizing an actual threat, this tends to multiply.
The Greeks knew about steam, and constructed gimmicks around that technology.
The Chinese invented gun powder, amongst other things.
If you feel that this assists you in neutralizing an actual threat, this tends to multiply.
The Greeks knew about steam, and constructed gimmicks around that technology.
The Chinese invented gun powder, amongst other things.
Rob's Executive Summary
It comes down to Mission, or Purpose. WOULD Darrians build cruiser hulls, given no Threat?
There's money, build capacity, time, and a Big Ship context. But there's no War context.
What does that leave?
How about a mobile Research Base? Cruiser-sized, jam-packed with equipment.
Same goes for an Exploratory Cruiser.
And a mobile Mining Base.
Is there any reason to have a cruiser-sized supply ship? It seems unlikely.
And Rob Has Been Wrong Before
As mentioned on this forum, Marc chooses story first. And he has surprised me before. Therefore, if there's a better story behind a Small Ship Darrian that fits with something Marc is working on, then all of my reasonableness goes out the window.
Because at the end of the day, all this blather and support is not proof.
Okay, those are valid considerations. Let's follow those threads.
(1) We know Marc (often) used Book 2 for ACS (since 1977), and High Guard for BCS (since 1979). That's what I'd have probably done too.
(2) We know that Darrians had ACS. (Remember the 300t Bowman ship). No argument there.
But it seems that the alien modules support a Big Ship universe.
(3) Consult Trillion Credit Squadron, and share your assumptions. I think in order for it to be impossible, you'd have to assume a population of 10 million (just a guesstimate).
I could be wrong.
Rob's Preferences
I think Darrian, the system, had a billion people at TL16. But it could have had a few hundred million. That would get us closer to an agreement, but not quite.
(1) It's not a Big Ship Fleet. It's mostly smaller ships.
(2) But there's plenty room for cruisers without spines.
I think we have at least BCr 50 per year, in TL16 credits, whatever that's worth. I don't know the maintenance rules, but I suspect there's room left over for an occasional cruiser plus all the little starships.
And there's low attrition, because no threats other than nature.
So the fleet builds nicely over 10, 20, 100 years. They don't have to spend every credit, and they still get a shiny and useful fleet.
(Going off script here: I can build an (empty) 50,000 ton J4 M7 TL16 hull for around 10 billion credits.)
It comes down to Mission, or Purpose. WOULD Darrians build cruiser hulls, given no Threat?
There's money, build capacity, time, and a Big Ship context. But there's no War context.
What does that leave?
How about a mobile Research Base? Cruiser-sized, jam-packed with equipment.
Same goes for an Exploratory Cruiser.
And a mobile Mining Base.
Is there any reason to have a cruiser-sized supply ship? It seems unlikely.
And Rob Has Been Wrong Before
As mentioned on this forum, Marc chooses story first. And he has surprised me before. Therefore, if there's a better story behind a Small Ship Darrian that fits with something Marc is working on, then all of my reasonableness goes out the window.
Because at the end of the day, all this blather and support is not proof.
Okay, those are valid considerations. Let's follow those threads.
(1) We know Marc (often) used Book 2 for ACS (since 1977), and High Guard for BCS (since 1979). That's what I'd have probably done too.
(2) We know that Darrians had ACS. (Remember the 300t Bowman ship). No argument there.
But it seems that the alien modules support a Big Ship universe.
(3) Consult Trillion Credit Squadron, and share your assumptions. I think in order for it to be impossible, you'd have to assume a population of 10 million (just a guesstimate).
I could be wrong.
Rob's Preferences
I think Darrian, the system, had a billion people at TL16. But it could have had a few hundred million. That would get us closer to an agreement, but not quite.
(1) It's not a Big Ship Fleet. It's mostly smaller ships.
(2) But there's plenty room for cruisers without spines.
I think we have at least BCr 50 per year, in TL16 credits, whatever that's worth. I don't know the maintenance rules, but I suspect there's room left over for an occasional cruiser plus all the little starships.
And there's low attrition, because no threats other than nature.
So the fleet builds nicely over 10, 20, 100 years. They don't have to spend every credit, and they still get a shiny and useful fleet.
(Going off script here: I can build an (empty) 50,000 ton J4 M7 TL16 hull for around 10 billion credits.)
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Maybe technological level sixteen develops ship killer missiles, in which case, you don't have to invest in large expensive energy weapons, nor the weapon platforms needed to house them.
Darrian Research Cruiser
We know that a cruiser isn't necessary to do a system survey. You send in the Scout ships, then the Donosevs, and you've got what you need after a bit of time spent gathering data.
But let's humor the old guy at the keyboard.
This thing isn't complete -- it's missing fuel scoops and refineries for example -- but it's about the right size to carry one of every type of sensor and defense in its own standard bay. And some weapons -- especially ones that can be repurposed for research purposes. And so on. It carries 41 crew and 255 researchers.
I haven't tried this with large bays. Probably only adds a couple thousand tons (payload).
Cruiser C-Z7S14 Tehlei MCr5341.2
Owner: Darrian
Actual volume: 15576 tons
Crew comfort: +1
Passenger demand: +0
Every politician ever said:
We know that a cruiser isn't necessary to do a system survey. You send in the Scout ships, then the Donosevs, and you've got what you need after a bit of time spent gathering data.
But let's humor the old guy at the keyboard.
This thing isn't complete -- it's missing fuel scoops and refineries for example -- but it's about the right size to carry one of every type of sensor and defense in its own standard bay. And some weapons -- especially ones that can be repurposed for research purposes. And so on. It carries 41 crew and 255 researchers.
I haven't tried this with large bays. Probably only adds a couple thousand tons (payload).
Cruiser C-Z7S14 Tehlei MCr5341.2
Owner: Darrian
Actual volume: 15576 tons
Crew comfort: +1
Passenger demand: +0
Code:
Tons Component MCr Notes
------- ----------------------------------- ----- --------------------
16800 Streamlined Hull, lifters, 168 a/l 1010 S, lifters, 168 a/l free
-84 No Landers 0
6048 Jump Fuel (4 parsecs) 0 4 parsec jump, at 1512t per parsec
604.79 Plant Fuel (one month) 0 one month
164 Maneuver Drive-1 (W4) 328 1 G
1062.5 Mod Jump Drive-4 (Z17) 062.5 J 4
620.5 Mod PowerPlant-4 (Z17) 620.5 P 4
150 DS Bay Neutrino Detector 26
150 DS Bay Visor 26
150 DS Bay Grav Sensor 26
150 DS Bay EMS 26
150 DS Bay Stealth Mask 26
100 Or Bay Sound Sensor 15.1
100 Or Bay Mass Sensor 15.1
100 Or Bay Deep Radar 15.1
100 Or Bay Analyzer/Sniffer 15.1
100 Or Bay Densitometer 15.1
100 Or Bay Life Detector 15.1
100 Or Bay Proximeter 15.1
100 Or Bay Activity Sensor 15.1
100 Or Bay Field Sensor 15.1
150 DS Bay Missile 25.2
100 Or Bay Slug Thrower 15.2
100 Or Bay Fusion Gun 16.5
100 Or Bay Mining Laser 15.5
100 Or Bay Pulse Laser 15.3
100 Or Bay Beam Laser 15.5
100 Or Bay Sandcaster 15.1
100 Or Bay Jump Damper 30
50 Vd Bay Tractor/Pressor 10
16.64 L Bay Disruptor 17.5
500 10x Magazine 0 #10 50 x Size-5
51 Bay Meson Screen 6
52 Bay Nuclear Damper 6
51 Bay Mag Scrambler 6
51 Bay Black Globe 9
2 Life Support Long Term 2 40 person-months
1 Life Support Luxury 1 10 high passengers
1 Life Support Adaptable 1 10 sophonts
10 20x Med Console 10 #20
40 20x Clinic 20 #20
10 5x Counsellor 1 #5
252 14x Gunner Barracks 14 #14 (22) 4 sq + R4 O1/O2
8 Computer Model/8 std 68
86 Spacious Bridge 4.8 6cc 35op 2ws
36 6x Officer Suite 2.4 #6 fresher + safe
4 4x Crew Common Fresher 4 #4 10 crew
80 40x Crew Stateroom 4 #40 1 crew
160 40x Crew Commons 0 #40
20 Cargo Hold Basic 0
140 20x Capture Tank 14 #20 atmospheric controlled
140 20x Large Animal Berth 20 #20 5 tons of animals
3 3x Solid Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 20t/hr
3 3x Liquid Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 40t/hr
3 3x Gas Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 60t/hr
3 3x Container Handler 3 #3 12t/hr
27 3x Large Cargo Lock 5.4 #3
60 3x Cargo Hold Bulk Solid 0 #3
180 3x Cargo Hold Bulk Gas 0 #3
120 3x Cargo Hold Bulk Liquid 0 #3
30 5x Luxury Stateroom 2 #5 1 passenger + fresher
100 50x Standard Stateroom 5 #50 1 passenger
1000 4x Lab 1000 #4 Sophisticated equipment
70 70x Common Fresher 70 #70 10 passengers
100 50x Stateroom Cramped 5 #50 4 passengers
1000 20x Modular Cutter 560 #20 m3bis 3
200 20x Hull Niche 30 #20 Half Vehicle Volume
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...And here's the monstrosity.
I botched this design. I didn't mean to include jump fuel. This ship should only be 44,000 tons and cost around 16 billion credits.
The "lab" space is about 10% of the total cost, which seems reasonable.
My point still stands -- if you want to support 400 researchers and their lab equipment somewhere, and you want to support them with a top-dollar suite of sensors in big bays, then a 44,000 ton cruiser is one way to do it.
Not the only way.
Maybe not the best way.
Cruiser C-ZXS14 Behle MCr27418
Owner: Darrian
I botched this design. I didn't mean to include jump fuel. This ship should only be 44,000 tons and cost around 16 billion credits.
The "lab" space is about 10% of the total cost, which seems reasonable.
My point still stands -- if you want to support 400 researchers and their lab equipment somewhere, and you want to support them with a top-dollar suite of sensors in big bays, then a 44,000 ton cruiser is one way to do it.
Not the only way.
Maybe not the best way.
Cruiser C-ZXS14 Behle MCr27418
Owner: Darrian
Code:
Tons Component MCr Notes
------- ----------------------------------- ----- --------------------
74400 Streamlined Hull, lifters, 744 a/l 4466 S, lifters, 744 a/l free
0 AV=96. 3 EMP Charged 0
29760 Jump Fuel (4 parsecs) 0 4 parsec jump, at 7440t per parsec
1488 Plant Fuel (2 months) 0 2 months
1 Fuel Transfer Pumps 1
1 Fuel Bins 0.1 20 t/hr
1 Fuel Purifier 1
1 Fuel Scoops 0.1 100 t/hr
15500 Collector-4 (Z62) 7750 4 C
7750 Jump Drive-4 (Z62) 7750 J 4
1168 PowerPlant-1 (Z16) 1168 P 1
752 Maneuver Drive-1 (Z16) 1504 1 G
300 DS LBay Communicator 51
300 DS LBay Neutrino Detector 51
300 DS LBay EMS 51
300 DS LBay Stealth Mask 51
300 DS LBay Grav Sensor 51
300 DS LBay Visor 51
50 SR LBay CommPlus 6
33.29 FR LBay HoloVisor 6
400 G LBay Sound Sensor 80.1
400 G LBay Mass Sensor 80.1
400 G LBay Deep Radar 80.1
400 G LBay Analyzer/Sniffer 80.1
400 G LBay Densitometer 80.1
400 G LBay Life Detector 80.1
400 G LBay Proximeter 80.1
400 G LBay Activity Sensor 80.1
400 G LBay Field Sensor 80.1
300 DS LBay Missile 50.2
400 G LBay Slug Thrower 80.2
400 G LBay Fusion Gun 81.5
400 G LBay Mining Laser 80.5
400 G LBay Pulse Laser 80.3
400 G LBay Beam Laser 80.5
400 G LBay Sandcaster 80.1
100 Vd LBay Tractor/Pressor 15
33.29 L LBay Disruptor 20
1 Magazine 0 50 x Size-5
101 LBay Meson Screen 11
102 LBay Nuclear Damper 11
101 LBay Mag Scrambler 11
101 LBay Black Globe 14
8 Computer Model/8 std 68
80 40x Life Support Long Term 80 #40 40 person-months
20 20x Life Support Luxury 20 #20 10 high passengers
20 20x Life Support Adaptable 20 #20 10 sophonts
10 20x Med Console 10 #20
40 20x Clinic 20 #20
20 10x Counsellor 2 #10
510 Spacious Bridge 25.9 5cc 249op 1ws
60 10x Officer Suite 4 #10 fresher + safe
120 60x Crew Cramped 6 #60 4 crew
40 20x Crew Stateroom 2 #20 1 crew
30 30x Crew Common Fresher 30 #30 10 crew
1000 250x Crew Commons 0 #250
100 5x Cargo Hold Basic 0 #5
140 20x Large Animal Berth 20 #20 5 tons of animals
140 20x Capture Tank 14 #20 atmospheric controlled
3 3x Container Handler 3 #3 12t/hr
100 5x Cargo Hold Bulk Solid 0 #5
3 3x Solid Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 20t/hr
100 5x Cargo Hold Bulk Liquid 0 #5
3 3x Liquid Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 40t/hr
100 5x Cargo Hold Bulk Gas 0 #5
3 3x Gas Bulk Handler 0.3 #3 60t/hr
90 10x Large Cargo Lock 18 #10
600 20x Personnel Module 40 #20 Cutter Module
600 20x Cargo Module 20 #20 Cutter Module
600 20x Skimmer Module 20 #20 Cutter Module
600 20x Pressurized Shelter 90 #20 Cutter Module
200 100x Stateroom Cramped 10 #100 4 passengers
2000 8x Lab 2000 #8 Sophisticated equipment
10 10x Common Fresher 10 #10 10 passengers
500 20x Hull Niche 30 #20 Half Vehicle Volume
1000 20x Modular Cutter 560 #20 m3bis 3
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They might have one ship with a spinal disintegrator, if such things are possible at TL-16 (or maybe just a meson gun or part-acc).
It was built for a long-forgotten research project.
It's been kept around "just in case".
They also need ship-mounted versions (at least one) of their star-kablooie device,
I'd assume that it'd be spinal-mount sized.
It was built for a long-forgotten research project.
It's been kept around "just in case".
They also need ship-mounted versions (at least one) of their star-kablooie device,
Spoiler:
I'd assume that it'd be spinal-mount sized.
I mostly disagree with roboject points ,as I’m afraid I reach different conclusions.
While it’s true the Darrians had no immediate threat on sight, even after having colonized over a subsector, they still knew such threats to exist, and they knew they could materialize quite soon, so I feel logical for them to prepare just in case, albeit at no hurry.
One can claim that their superior tech would have made them quite self-assured against most threats, but remember they didn’t know how others have fared. The Izin fleet brought not only technology wonders and drive, but also news of what was going on far In space, and, as the last they knew about the Terrans was they have raised several TLs in short time, they could by no means have assumed they had not kept on it. Not knowing about the long night extent, they could well be afraid they, having a great starting technological edge when the Darrians began to raise it, had an even superior one.
So, again IMHO, they didn’t have an immediate one, but were afraid against far, but quite powerful ones. As said many times before, a navy is not built in short time, so building some navy, just in case, would not be seen as unwise (and they seemed to be far thinking)
About the kind of vessels to equip their fleet, I again disagree with roboject, as if there’s one thing I would not expect in their designs is missiles, while I would not rule out so quick some spinals.
As roboject tells, the Darrians had no previous military experience, and so they had to rely on the Izin for this. The Izin, being Terrans, would likely scorn at missiles and favour the spinals, as their background (the Interstellar Wars) “showed” them to be far superior. Didn’t after all the spinals have been a major factor in allowing the Terrans to win over the much larger Vilani Empire?
This aside, missiles are spent, even on training, while energy weapons (be them turrets, bays or spinals) are cheaper to use once installed, and don’t need ammunition. If you want to keep budget low (as there’s no close threat) and at once you believe large energy weapons to be superior to missiles, you’re likely to ignore them as weapons.
So, to me, the most likely composition of the pre-Maghiz Darrian navy (freighters, colony ships and so aside, so the “military” part) would be:
Of all of those, the most likely to survive would be some of the (Coast Guards and Defensive vessels, the scouts (as they returned), and some curriers, as the Mobile force most likely base would have been Darrian itself, and so the probabilities of having been taken out by the Maghiz would have been high
Of all those forces, the most likely (IMHO) to have been mothballed would have been the Defense and Coast Guards SDBs and Monitors , while he rest would be likely to have been eroded by tear and wear with the (finally failed) effort to keep the confederation alive
As the setting says this is seen as a credible threat by most foreign powers, I don’t believe the TL16 fleet of the Golden Era to be only small crafts, at least at the initial clashes with the Sword Worlds, where they are likely to have been in some (no matter how few) engagements (as the book talks about their usual use, again IMHO, this hints it has been).
Of course, along the centuries, wear and tear, as well as lack of proper (but difficult) maintenance might have been eroding it to the point of this threat being less than credible,,,
See that from metagaming POV all of this is quite Traveller version dependant, as what is a good design in CT/MT HG system may not be so in MgT HG system…
And, of course, as said, this has a very huge part of interpretation of the setting, and it's only one of many ones posible (but mine)
While it’s true the Darrians had no immediate threat on sight, even after having colonized over a subsector, they still knew such threats to exist, and they knew they could materialize quite soon, so I feel logical for them to prepare just in case, albeit at no hurry.
One can claim that their superior tech would have made them quite self-assured against most threats, but remember they didn’t know how others have fared. The Izin fleet brought not only technology wonders and drive, but also news of what was going on far In space, and, as the last they knew about the Terrans was they have raised several TLs in short time, they could by no means have assumed they had not kept on it. Not knowing about the long night extent, they could well be afraid they, having a great starting technological edge when the Darrians began to raise it, had an even superior one.
So, again IMHO, they didn’t have an immediate one, but were afraid against far, but quite powerful ones. As said many times before, a navy is not built in short time, so building some navy, just in case, would not be seen as unwise (and they seemed to be far thinking)
About the kind of vessels to equip their fleet, I again disagree with roboject, as if there’s one thing I would not expect in their designs is missiles, while I would not rule out so quick some spinals.
As roboject tells, the Darrians had no previous military experience, and so they had to rely on the Izin for this. The Izin, being Terrans, would likely scorn at missiles and favour the spinals, as their background (the Interstellar Wars) “showed” them to be far superior. Didn’t after all the spinals have been a major factor in allowing the Terrans to win over the much larger Vilani Empire?
This aside, missiles are spent, even on training, while energy weapons (be them turrets, bays or spinals) are cheaper to use once installed, and don’t need ammunition. If you want to keep budget low (as there’s no close threat) and at once you believe large energy weapons to be superior to missiles, you’re likely to ignore them as weapons.
So, to me, the most likely composition of the pre-Maghiz Darrian navy (freighters, colony ships and so aside, so the “military” part) would be:
- Curriers (of course)
- Customs and S&R ships (mostly light SDBs) , equivalent to Coast Guard
- Defense fleet, mostly monitors and heavy SDBs. Small in numbers (as there was no immediate threat), powerful in design, as if far threats materialized themselves there would be no second opportunities.
- Scouting fleet: a mix of small ships (scout equivalents) , survey ships and long range ships, probably armed to some extent, as they still were wary of strumbling themselves into those far threats.
- Maybe a small, but powerful, mobile force not larger than cruiser (probably light) size
Of all of those, the most likely to survive would be some of the (Coast Guards and Defensive vessels, the scouts (as they returned), and some curriers, as the Mobile force most likely base would have been Darrian itself, and so the probabilities of having been taken out by the Maghiz would have been high
Of all those forces, the most likely (IMHO) to have been mothballed would have been the Defense and Coast Guards SDBs and Monitors , while he rest would be likely to have been eroded by tear and wear with the (finally failed) effort to keep the confederation alive
As the setting says this is seen as a credible threat by most foreign powers, I don’t believe the TL16 fleet of the Golden Era to be only small crafts, at least at the initial clashes with the Sword Worlds, where they are likely to have been in some (no matter how few) engagements (as the book talks about their usual use, again IMHO, this hints it has been).
Of course, along the centuries, wear and tear, as well as lack of proper (but difficult) maintenance might have been eroding it to the point of this threat being less than credible,,,
See that from metagaming POV all of this is quite Traveller version dependant, as what is a good design in CT/MT HG system may not be so in MgT HG system…
And, of course, as said, this has a very huge part of interpretation of the setting, and it's only one of many ones posible (but mine
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If they were using large warships for evacuation and communications purposes, someone would have noticed.
We have room to wiggle and temporize.
Rather than support, the module appears if anything to argue against this.
I don't see the module conveying this feeling AT ALL. It seems to be about fluffy, self-absorbed Star Trek academics who acted as though they were in a safe cocoon.
Now I'm not sure Darrian being fluffy and academic peaceniks makes a lot of sense, mind you. I mean, I sometimes call them Space Elves, but when I say it, it's with scorn.
Now you're using the module against itself -- and I approve.
I see only one path there: the Itzin lit a fire of suspicion or paranoia of powerful states mere subsectors away, and if these green-blooded Vulcans could see the logic in preparedness, then by golly they'd build a fleet.
No, actually there's one more path: the Darrians eventually encountered a threat that made them realize that they had better militarize. They lost some ships, Darrian got threatened, they re-read the Itzin's accounts... and decided better safe than sorry.
*** I would put this incident on Zamine or Mire, when the Darrians contact local sophonts there who have risen to TL 8 or so but don't have jump. The Darrians find a system rich with resources, but the locals resist, and a right little war ensues for a decade or so. The locals win the war, keep their world, but in a century they are fully integrated.
*** Alternately, I'd have them get into a scuffle with a strong world in Foreven, ending in a scorched-earth policy that they hush up -- a critical resource world was lost forever to everyone.
Either way, the lesson is not lost on Darrian: you gotta build a fleet.
The problem is that that's not in the module AT ALL. It's a decision we made based on what we think, and it's even counter to the fuzzy feel of the module. So while I think it's reasonable, I also think it's probably wrong, because it requires an unsanctioned module retcon.
In the meantime, I'll work on getting a sanctioned retcon from Marc.
And that discussion is WAY below the level of detail of Alien Module 8.
But I'll say this: spines are expected and perfectly reasonable IF Darrian was thinking that, when contact-with-another-empire finally came, it would not want to be caught flat footed.
I'll go one further: if Darrian was preparing for conflict, and they were logical and far-thinking, they'd build to project power, and that means dreadnoughts as well as the full gamut of support ships.
And as for missiles: they play their part in Traveller; therefore, Darrian would be foolish to neglect their place.
Indeed, it cannot be, and that's one of the reasons I am forced to conclude that pre-Maghiz Darrian built Big Ships.
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My Factoids:
1.The Itzin were Terrans from after the Nth Interstellar War so they knew of meson weapons.
2.The Vilani did not have meson weapon until the Rule of Man.
3.Our prehistoric Darrians weren't pacifistic, science-y space elves. They certainly knew of starvation, war and
cannibalism when their fire pits started winking out.
Suggestions and implications:
The Darrians may not have needed any new actual threat at all.
The Terrans would have told them about the Vilani and the scope of history beyond the Darrian homeworld as the saw it: evil subjegated Vilani Space Wolves Raiders. Soloma ... er ... Terrans being Terrans would have suggested arming up anyways ... just in case.
If there was an incident it might have been just be that the "invaders" were just Zhodani explorers or Vargr explorer/raiders at their most rimward expedition to that point. We know the farthest extent of the Vilani Empire from the dotmap in Vilani & Vargr book. I forget the reference, but the Zhos and Vilani met on friendly terms at one point.
We know the Maghiz itself happened with the meson communications to their stellar probes so they knew something about mesons. The Spinal Mounts on Darrian ships would likely have been Meson Guns. One or two shot quick kill space cannons. So clean, so fresh. So ... Darrian.
We know Vilani Empire did not have meson guns. Even if they got them from post-war Terrans, The Long Night ensured the Vilani would not come knocking.
1.The Itzin were Terrans from after the Nth Interstellar War so they knew of meson weapons.
2.The Vilani did not have meson weapon until the Rule of Man.
3.Our prehistoric Darrians weren't pacifistic, science-y space elves. They certainly knew of starvation, war and
cannibalism when their fire pits started winking out.Suggestions and implications:
The Darrians may not have needed any new actual threat at all.
The Terrans would have told them about the Vilani and the scope of history beyond the Darrian homeworld as the saw it: evil subjegated Vilani Space Wolves Raiders. Soloma ... er ... Terrans being Terrans would have suggested arming up anyways ... just in case.
If there was an incident it might have been just be that the "invaders" were just Zhodani explorers or Vargr explorer/raiders at their most rimward expedition to that point. We know the farthest extent of the Vilani Empire from the dotmap in Vilani & Vargr book. I forget the reference, but the Zhos and Vilani met on friendly terms at one point.
We know the Maghiz itself happened with the meson communications to their stellar probes so they knew something about mesons. The Spinal Mounts on Darrian ships would likely have been Meson Guns. One or two shot quick kill space cannons. So clean, so fresh. So ... Darrian.
We know Vilani Empire did not have meson guns. Even if they got them from post-war Terrans, The Long Night ensured the Vilani would not come knocking.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You can prototype weapon systems two (maybe three in Tee Five) technological levels above your current one.
Horrendously expensive, but since the Darrian fleet wasn't that large, maybe affordable for them.
Horrendously expensive, but since the Darrian fleet wasn't that large, maybe affordable for them.
