Custom Ship: 1000-dTon Scout Cruiser

[Black Vulmea]

Myself, I prefer the TL15 version for the jump-4.

The original TL D scout cruiser in EA5 is based on Gateway Domain circa 993 to 1000, a century before the "classic," "Golden Age" OTU. It seems reasonable that if IISS liked the design that they would upgrade it to TL E or F in the intervening years.

That said, IMTU the TL D Norton Qasar-class is an out-of-date design compared to the Donnies, in service past its prime, retained for deep-space exploration along the trailing frontier due to its long legs.

 

[RossWinn]

Why? What was their reasoning?

In CT and MT most of the IISS was built on TL12 and designed to be easily supported outside the Imperium. TL15 was much rarer in the Third Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

In MT every design is TL15 because DGP broke the ship construction system. Source MT Imperial Encyclopedia.

In CT the scout is TL9, the tender is TL10 and the xboat is TL10. Source S:7 T&G

 

[Spinward Flow]

In MT every design is TL15 because DGP broke the ship construction system. Source MT Imperial Encyclopedia.

There's also the fact that Max TL "makes things EASIER to build" in SO MANY ways that it's basically a Cheat Code.
The ... pattern ... for that was largely established by LBB S9.
Of the 28 craft featured in LBB S9 ... only SIX craft are NOT TL=F.

1. Scout/Courier TL=9 (p11, LBB2 legacy design)
2. Express Boat TL=A (p12, LBB2 legacy design)
3. Gazelle-class Close Escort TL=E (p17, LBB5.79 legacy design, with a "cheat" of putting 4 turrets onto a 300 ton hull)
4. Mercenary Cruiser TL=C (p21, LBB2 legacy design)
5. Gig TL=D (p27, LBB5.80 design)
6. Azhanti High Lightning-class Frontier Cruiser TL=E (p31)

The other 22 craft featured in LBB S9 are ALL ... TL=F.
The 21.4% (6 of 28) craft that are NOT TL=F are all rather obviously the superminority and are all rather obviously "inferior" designs compared to the BESTEST @Everything™ TL=F craft which are the supermajority of craft featured in LBB S9.

All things considered, this is substantially "Fair" simply because the vast majority of craft featured in LBB S9 are naval vessels used by the Imperial Navy, so TL=F "makes sense" for all the destroyers and battle wagons.



By contrast, the craft featured in LBB S7 are mostly TL=9-A:

1. Express Boat TL=A
2. Express Boat Tender TL=A
3. Scout/Courier TL=9
4. Far Trader TL=9
5. Subsidized Merchant TL=9
6. Assistant TL=9
7. Seeker TL=9
8. Ship's Boat TL=9
9. Pinnace TL=9
10. Cutter TL=9

Relatively few craft in LBB S7 fall outside of the TL=9-A range:

1. Gazelle-class Close Escort TL=E (LBB5.79 legacy design)
2. Gig TL=E
3. System Defense Boat TL=C
4. Jump Shuttle TL=C
5. Launch TL=8

The point here is to use the minimum tech level necessary for construction of the craft with desired capabilities in LBB S7 (and that minimum is pretty darn minimal!). So if anything, the Precedent Is Set™ that for FRONTIER work, TL=9-A is a pretty solid assumption that ought to be getting made.

The only reason the Close Escort "needs" to have TL=E is so that is can mount the "newfangled" Particle Accelerator Barbettes onto its hull (which require TL=E and an obscenely high computer model to hit anything!) ... and ... to "permit" J5 under LBB5 custom drive paradigm rules ... along with the tonnage savings of Bonded Superdense Armor @ TL=E in order to be able to CRAM everything into a hull size "too small" for everything to fit into reasonably, while also showing off the "new" L-Hyd Drop Tanks feature (without adequately explaining how to make it work right). So to say that the Close Escort is "something of an outlier here" is quite the understatement.



The overarching theme though is that (entry level, penny ante) commercial merchant craft are expected to fall into the TL=9 "bucket" ... and the Scouts actually "splurged" on TL=A for the Express Network (to make it "fast enough" to operate).

Close Escorts are an obsolete Imperial Navy craft (because, TL=E).

The LBB S7 System Defense Boat (TL=C) is simply an "example" of what can be done with boats (J0 craft) that are maneuver only combatants at lower (than TL=F) tech levels produced domestically for local system defense purposes from in-system construction yards, but which can be exported to nearby worlds(!) to bolster system defense patrols beyond the home star system doing the construction (see: Shared Defense doctrine).

The Launch can "get away with" being a "nuclear teakettle" @ TL=8 simply because the craft is limited to 1G maneuver.

In MT every design is TL15 because DGP broke the ship construction system. Source MT Imperial Encyclopedia.

MT ... "broke" a lot of things ... including the Third Imperium setting.
Breaking the ship construction paradigm was just a "bonus" ...

 

[Badenov]

There's also the fact that Max TL "makes things EASIER to build" in SO MANY ways that it's basically a Cheat Code.

One more benefit to TL F, your power plant is half the size of older models. It's not a thing with LBB2 ships, but with LBB5 ships, it's a thing. Not a big thing at small hull sizes, but for capital warships, it can be thousands of tons.

 

[Badenov]

In MT every design is TL15 because DGP broke the ship construction system. Source MT Imperial Encyclopedia.

In CT the scout is TL9, the tender is TL10 and the xboat is TL10. Source S:7 T&G

So, the CT construction system wildly favors TL15 construction also for large capital warships.

A 25000-ton warship at TL15: ~23500MCr.
The same ship, modified for TL14 and tonnage increased to account for larger power plant and the next best Meson Spinal: 35000 tons and 42300MCr. TL15 is a huge cost savings

 

[Grav_Moped]

One more benefit to TL F, your power plant is half the size of older models. It's not a thing with LBB2 ships, but with LBB5 ships, it's a thing. Not a big thing at small hull sizes, but for capital warships, it can be thousands of tons.

It can be a big thing in little ships too, under certian circumstances. My S3 (Type S Scout/Courier at TL-13) fits J3/2G into the drive bay of a LBB2 Standard Hull. At TL-11 (minimum for J-2) or -12 the power plant won't fit in there. At TL-15, the ship can be J3/3G because the 3Td saved in power plant gets replaced by 3Td more maneuver drive.

All links are to posts in my 2021 thread, Type S3 Far Scout/Courier.

 

[Black Vulmea]

In CT and MT most of the IISS was built on TL12 and designed to be easily supported outside the Imperium. TL15 was much rarer in the Third Imperium.

[taps sign]



The bulk of the IISS fleet, like the bulk of its personnel, is Communications: x-boats, tenders, couriers, TL 9-A.

The next largest component is Survey. Which uses, canonically, a TL F workhorse, the Donnies.

The only Exploration ship we're shown by GDW is the TL E AHL. QLI gave us the c. 993 TL D Qasars; given the period, this was closer to the Imperial max TL than the average.

IISS also picks up odd ships here and there; frex, Survey in the Marches has a pair of TL D Leviathans (A4. p. 23). IMTU this is pretty common; IISS's budget gets used as a sort of works program for local systems, so they get all sorts of oddball ships, which give the Operations staff fits: "Wait, why do I need condenser coils for a Lord Somerset on Howarth?!"

Kurgulash med scouts operate out of the Technical office; it's the only IISS ship I can find that's actually TL C, btw.

So Scout ships are all over the map in terms of technology. However, the most complete sources on IISS gear in CT are Grand Survey and Grand Census, and most of it's TL F. That tech level is well established by the 1106 "Golden Age," so much so that IN is phasing out older TL F designs for newer ones.

As discussed upthread, maintaining a ship in good working order and permanently repairing or replacing battle damage to a ship are not the same thing in CT. A class B starport a score of parsecs beyond the Imperial frontier can keep a TL F ship flying as well as a TL C or TL 9; I kinda think they're designed that way, in fact, as if naval architects understand that Charted Space isn't homogenous in its technology . . .

 

[Rupert]

The point here is to use the minimum tech level necessary for construction of the craft with desired capabilities in LBB S7 (and that minimum is pretty darn minimal!). So if anything, the Precedent Is Set™ that for FRONTIER work, TL=9-A is a pretty solid assumption that ought to be getting made.

The only reason the Close Escort "needs" to have TL=E is so that is can mount the "newfangled" Particle Accelerator Barbettes onto its hull (which require TL=E and an obscenely high computer model to hit anything!) ... and ... to "permit" J5 under LBB5 custom drive paradigm rules ... along with the tonnage savings of Bonded Superdense Armor @ TL=E in order to be able to CRAM everything into a hull size "too small" for everything to fit into reasonably, while also showing off the "new" L-Hyd Drop Tanks feature (without adequately explaining how to make it work right). So to say that the Close Escort is "something of an outlier here" is quite the understatement.



The overarching theme though is that (entry level, penny ante) commercial merchant craft are expected to fall into the TL=9 "bucket" ... and the Scouts actually "splurged" on TL=A for the Express Network (to make it "fast enough" to operate).

Well, any ship that wants to do more than one thing at a time needs a computer that's TL-A or better. Any real warship will be wanting at least a Model 6 (TL-C) and probably a model 7 (TL-D) - and that's using Book2. TL-9 is okay for ships that don't intend to fight seriously (and being able to evade and jump at the same time is something I'd except a scout going into unknown space to able able to do, which means a model 4 computer or better for Jump-4, Navigation, and an Evade program, and that's TL-A. Drive size is also fairly limited at lower TLs, so small and low-performance ships are fine, but once you build to any size (and B1-3 ships aren't very large, really), you need a decent TL. The 100 DTon J4 scout of the thread's OP requires a TL15 jump drive (and power plant).

Thus I don't really consider TL9-A to be adequate for the frontier, except for those who can't afford anything better (low-end merchants, etc.) - frontiers mean longer distance between developed worlds, and that means you want a jump drive with more range, and with a low TL that means a small ship, and that limits its utility. I think the Type S is TL9 just because it can meet the minimal specs it was built to meet (and those specs obviously included 'at minimal cost') - and that's a very good reason to build at lower TLs in a Book1-3 universe - do not build at a higher TL than you need to, and thus make your ship more generally useful and easier to repair.

I find CT frustrating - B2 isn't enough for me, and HG swing too much the other way, and is too abstract.

 

[Rupert]

The only reason the Close Escort "needs" to have TL=E is so that is can mount the "newfangled" Particle Accelerator Barbettes onto its hull (which require TL=E and an obscenely high computer model to hit anything!)

Compared to lasers they aren't that much worse, once you consider that lasers might well have to penetrate sand, mounting for mounting. In terms of displacement the particle beams are terrible because they take so many tons and so much power.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Well, any ship that wants to do more than one thing at a time needs a computer that's TL-A or better.

Model/3 is ... pretty cramped for CPU+Storage space.
You can make it work, but the model/4 is really where things start to open up in terms of options.

Model/1 and 2 computers are really little more than "target drones" in terms of combat capability (either in LBB2 or in LBB5 combat paradigms). I would even go so far as to assert that model/1 computers have no business getting into space combat, due to their limitations. Putting weapons onto a model/1 computer is one of those "all hat, no cattle" kinds of things.

Compared to lasers they aren't that much worse, once you consider that lasers might well have to penetrate sand, mounting for mounting. In terms of displacement the particle beams are terrible because they take so many tons and so much power.

They're pretty ridiculous.
2x code: 1 Particle Accelerator (barbettes) have a starting to-hit threshold of *9* ... before throwing other modifiers (relative computer size DM, hull size DM, agility DM) into the mix. The only thing giving those PA barbettes a CHANCE to hit anything is the model/6 computer(!) ... and even then, the Close Escort had better be taking pot shots against a model/1 computer equipped adversary with minimal agility to have a decent chance of scoring a hit.

A small craft fighter with a model/2 computer and agility=6 would be "completely immune" to hits from the PA barbettes:

• 9 - 6 (computer DM of close escort) + 2 (size DM of fighter) + 2 (computer DM of fighter) + 6 (agility DM of fighter) = roll 13+ to hit

A 100-1999 tons big craft with a model/3 computer and agility=6 would ALSO be "completely immune" to hits from the PA barbettes:

• 9 - 6 (computer DM of close escort) + 1 (size DM of big craft) + 3 (computer DM of big craft) + 6 (agility DM of big craft) = roll 13+ to hit

I'm reminded of Jack O'Neill explaining the difference between Staff Weapons and the FN P-90.

"This ... is a weapon of Terror. It's made to ... intimidate the enemy." {drops staff on the ground}
"THIS ... is a weapon of WAR. It's made to KILL your enemy." {holds P-90}

 

[kilemall]

Arguable case on the small PA weapons, but the spinals are the real deal, thanks in no small part to the radiation crew hits.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Arguable case on the small PA weapons, but the spinals are the real deal, thanks in no small part to the radiation crew hits.

True ... but ... it's hard to fit a spinal mount (of any variety) into a 300 ton (masquerading as a 400 ton) starship ... no matter what "persuasion" method you try to use.