CT+ Light and Medium Weapons and Skills

[far-trader]

Kept meaning to put this up but wasn't sure it was done. Given the late interest in CT+ I figured I'd throw it out now and you can use it for that discussion (if this hasn't already been covered) or as I had intended as a simple stand alone compilation for CT:

This is a consolidated partial list of Light and Medium Weapons and related skills for CT that attempts to correct what I see as some imbalance between Book 1 and the later Books 4, 5 and 7, and Supplement 4. This is reflected primarily in the changes to "cascade" and "included" breakdowns for the different weapons.

There are also a few MTU changes which I think are for the better. This list is by no means complete, but fairly so for the more common types of weapons PC's should have access to and be facing in most games.

If you created a character using the basic generation in Book 2 you can convert the weapon skills by finding your weapon choice(s) below and changing them as needed. For example a Book 2 Merchant with Gun Combat-Revolver 2 would have Gun Combat-Handgun 2, while a Book 2 Marine with Gun Combat-Automatic Rifle 1, Shotgun 1, and Laser Carbine 1 would have Gun Combat-Combat Rifleman 1, Shotgun 1, and Laser Weapons 1. This brings all weapon skills more into common balance.

If creating a character from scratch note the options now available if you roll Gun Combat. Options which include Bows, Crossbows, and even Sling. While Supp 4 required that these weapons use both Strength and Dexterity for the Characteristic DMs (see below) I use only Dexterity in MTU.

Cascade requires you to choose one from the selections indented (one tab) below that heading. Included means that you apply the skill level to each of the selections indented (one tab) below that heading.

The Characteristic DM, "Char DM" for short, lists the score and DM for the penalty or bonus to attack. The first number set is characteristic score or less that imposes the penalty shown and (separated by a slash) the second number set is the characteristic score or more that allows the bonus shown. For example: A Club/Baton is 4-4/8+2 and is read as "A characteristic score of 4 or less imposes a penalty of -4" and "A characteristic score of 8 or more allows a bonus of +2". The appropriate characteristic is usually Strength for Blade Combat and Brawling, and Dexterity for Ranged Combat.

The two exceptions I usually use are: i) Allowing Dexterity to be chosen as an alternative when learning Brawling but imposing a damage modifier of -1 on all attacks, possibly meaning no damage. ii) Allowing Dexterity as an option for Dagger and Foil but imposing a to hit penalty of -1 on all attacks.

An additional combat change I allow is bare Hands/Feet (using Brawling) parrying in defence. However this incurs an automatic point of damage to the defender whether successful or not.

There are a couple of name changes for more clarity. Automatic Pistol has been renamed simply Pistol to make the nomenclature fit better with Snub Pistol, which is itself now the combat version of the weapon, and to avoid the mistaken assumption by some that it is capable of full automatic fire. The Snub Revolver is now the basic version of the weapon type. The Military Crossbow is renamed as Heavy Crossbow and the Sporting Crossbow is renamed as Light Crossbow to remove the misleading names. I also added a Compound Bow to the list.

One change for simplification was to do away with the different ammo types for the weapons from Book 4. The Advanced Combat Rifle defaults to Discarding Sabot rounds and the Snub handguns default to HEAP rounds. Further any firearm may use Tranq rounds. Related to these simplifications is listing all weapons in an unenhanced state. That is, they are presented without accessories which may be added for the effects listed.

Another simplification is full automatic fire. The weapons capable of burst fire/full automatic fire are listed with a x# after the damage die indicating the number of dice for extra damage when the weapon is fired in this mode. If fired in single shot/semi-automatic mode use only one die for damage. In the case of the Gauss Rifle the x3 listed is for a 10 round burst, apply a x2 for a 4 round burst. In either case the range modifier is also simplified and uses the burst fire/full automatic fire adjustment for all modes.

Finally the "T" in the range columns indicates the weapon may be thrown from Short range up to the range noted in addition to it's normal use. There is a -1 to hit and -1 to damage for all ranges, and thrown attacks cannot be made at Close range.

Oops, one more note. It seems I changed the Dagger Short range DM. Seemed wrong that it was better than a Sword at sword to polearm range.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Weapon/Skill and Damage Char DM Range Matrix Hit DM
C S M L V
Blade Combat(cascade)
Dagger = 2D 3-2/8+2 +1 -1 T / /
Cutlass = 2D 6-2/B+2 -4 +2 / / /
Foil = 1D 4-1/A+1 -1 +0 / / /
Sword = 2D 5-2/A+1 -2 +1 / / /

Brawling(includes)
Club/Baton = 2D 4-4/8+2 +1 +2 T / /
Hands/Feet = 1D 6-2/9+1 +2 +1 / / /
Improvised = 1D 5-3/9+2 +1 +1 T / /

Gun Combat(cascade)
*Accelerator Rifle = 3Dx2 5-1/9+1 -4 +0 +4 +2 +0
Body Pistol = 3D 7-3/B+1 +2 +1 -6 / /
Bow Weapons(includes)
Compound Bow = 3D 2-1/9+2 / +2 +1 -3 /
Long Bow = 2D 6-3/B+2 / +1 +1 -4 /
Short Bow = 1D 4-2/A+1 / +2 +1 -5 /
*Combat Rifleman(includes)
Advanced Combat Rifle = 3Dx2 5-2/8+2 -4 +1 +2 -3 -4
Assault Rifle = 3Dx2 4-1/8+2 -4 +1 +2 +0 -3
Automatic Rifle = 3Dx2 6-2/A+2 -8 +0 +2 +1 -2
Crossbows(includes)
Heavy Crossbow = 3D 5-2/B+1 -4 +0 -1 -8 /
Light Crossbow = 2D 3-2/9+1 -2 +0 -2 / /
Repeating Crossbow = 2D 7-2/C+1 -2 +0 -2 / /
*Gauss Rifle = 4Dx3 6-2/A+2 -4 +1 +4 +1 -3
Handgun(includes)
Pistol = 3D 6-2/A+1 +1 +2 -4 -6 /
Revolver = 3D 6-2/9+1 +1 +2 -3 -5 /
Snub Pistol = 4D 6-2/A+1 +1 +2 -8 / /
Snub Revolver = 4D 6-2/9+1 +1 +2 -6 / /
*Laser Weapons(includes)
Laser Carbine = 4D 5-3/A+2 -4 +1 +1 +1 +0
Laser Rifle = 5D 6-3/B+2 -8 +2 +2 +2 +1
Rifleman(includes)
Carbine = 3D 4-1/9+1 -4 +1 -2 -4 -5
Rifle = 3D 5-2/8+1 -8 +1 +0 -1 -3
Shotgun = 4D 3-1/9+1 -4 +1 +3 -6 /
Sling = 1D 2-2/B+1 / +3 +0 / /
*SubMachineGun = 3Dx2 5-2/9+2 -4 +3 +3 -6 -9

Accessories(optional)
1 Sights(choose one)
Long Range Optics / / / +4 +4
Short Range Optics / / +2 +2 /
Electronic Sights / / / +4 +4

2 Light Sights(choose one)
Light Long Range Optics / / +2 +2 /
Light Short Range Optics / +1 +1 / /
Light Electronic Sights / / +2 +2 /

1 Folding Stock +2 +1 -1 -1 -1

3 Detachable Stock -1 -1 +1 +1 /

1 Muzzle Suppressor -2 -2 -2 -2 -2

3 Muzzle Silencer -2 -2 -2 -2 /</pre>[/QUOTE]1 These accessories are only usable on long arms. Specifically the Accelerator Rifle, Advanced Combat Rifle, Assault Rifle, Automatic Rifle, Carbine, Gauss Rifle, Laser Carbine, Laser Rifle, Rifle, and SubMachineGun.

2 Light sights may be used on long arms in place of the standard sights and may also be used by the Pistols and Revolvers.

3 These accessories are only usable on small arms. Specifically the Pistols and Revolvers.

* These skill areas are only available to purely military soldier careers IMTU, specifically Army and Marines. This doesn't mean others can't use such weapons, only that they will be doing so at Skill 0 until picking up skill levels through experience. These weapons are also unavailable to all except Army and Marines as a mustering out benefit IMTU.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by far-trader:
These skill areas are only available to purely military soldier careers IMTU, specifically Army and Marines.

Wha, youse aint neva hoid o no "Family"? We's love tha SMG. Don they haf ole movies on yore planet?

If you do this, you HAVE to get rid of the name: Gun Combat. Why I suggested elsewhere Melee Combat and Ranged Combat for the cascade names. Ranged Combat works for this.

This is actually the way I break up the combat skills IMTU. Only two real complaints:
1) Revolvers and Pistols don't work the same. I split Revolvers and Pistols.
2) I'm leery of putting Assault Rifle in a mil-only category. It really isn't that different from a regular rifle. You probably don't want to fire it from your shoulder in full-auto, but that's about it. Compromise (?) might be to give Combat Rifleman=Rifleman-2. This will give 0 unless you are pretty good with a rifle.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
These skill areas are only available to purely military soldier careers IMTU, specifically Army and Marines.

Wha, youse aint neva hoid o no "Family"? We's love tha SMG. Don they haf ole movies on yore planet? </font>[/QUOTE] Forgive me Don Corney'Only I meant no disrespect. I only meant that those particular items were, um, leagally trained by such groups. You of course have no need to abide by such unjust laws and can of course make free use of whatever means you want. How many would you like

I'm having a sale, half-price for the family man

Originally posted by Fritz88:
If you do this, you HAVE to get rid of the name: Gun Combat. Ranged Combat works for this.

Good call, I just had it typed up that way because it's how it was.

Pistols and Revolvers, yes, they don't work the same but I didn't want too many selections and they are close enough in handling which is the main point in the skill in my mind. The differences seem small enough to me. I'll bow to actual experience if that's where you're coming from having only handled a revolver once and pistols little more.

And the AR as mil only was just because of the full auto. Agreed if fired single shot or even semi-auto it's not much different than a rifle. Have to give your compromise some thought.

 

[Berg]

Pardon my ignorance of your labeling
Could you breakdown the Char DM column?

Tom

 

[far-trader]

No problem Berg, I'll be happy to. If my explanation didn't cut it then it's not your ignorance but my failure to be clear, perhaps by attempting to be too concise.

Can you help point out the confusing part(s) of the paragraph?

The Characteristic DM, "Char DM" for short, lists the score and DM for the penalty or bonus to attack. The first number set is characteristic score or less that imposes the penalty shown and (separated by a slash) the second number set is the characteristic score or more that allows the bonus shown. For example: A Club/Baton is 4-4/8+2 and is read as "A characteristic score of 4 or less imposes a penalty of -4" and "A characteristic score of 8 or more allows a bonus of +2". The appropriate characteristic is usually Strength for Blade Combat and Brawling, and Dexterity for Ranged Combat.

I know it made sense to me when I typed it but then I don't have the benefit of fresh eyes on it. Your help would be much appreciated.

 

[Berg]

Doh

I read the full text earlier, but it's late now and I just quickly looked at the chart.
/me crawls home :embaressed graemlin:

I was hoping we could come up with a way to get rid of the various different DM's for each weapon.
Perhaps breaking them into groups. If not I can live with it

Tom

 

[far-trader]

No need for that Glad to hear it was as easy as that.

I was prepared for some obvious to all but me problem with the wording

I have thought about reducing the DMs too but no inspiration yet Just eliminating them is about all I see and that seems wrong.

Grouping could work. As it is there are several related weapons that have close or the same DMs but the range matrix DMs are different. So since the line is needed anyway... <shrugs>

Maybe someone will have an idea or two

 

[Straybow]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Close
Cutlass -4
Foil -1
Sword -2</pre>[/QUOTE]I'm curious what definitions you are using for these weapons, and how you arrive at these DMs.

Anyone who has played other games we need not name are aware that swords and cutlass-like weapons come in a variety of shapes and sizes.

At present I can't find my LBBs, so I'm not sure which definition applies to close and short ranges.

 

[far-trader]

The DMs are right out of The Traveller Book, though I notice I changed the Dagger entry for Short range, now noted as such above.

Let's see the CT definition of them are:

Cutlass - A heavy, flat bladed, single edged weapon featuring a basket hilt guard. Length varies between 600mm to 900mm.

Foil - A light, sword like weapon with a pointed edged blade with a light basket or cup hilt guard. Overall length is 800mm.

Sword - The standard long edged weapon with a flat, two edged blade, sometimes with a basket hilt guard though usually with a simple cross hilt guard. Length is 700mm to 950mm.

CT tended to gloss the differences of blades more than other more sword oriented games.

I should also note that it seems I wasn't quite finished, or didn't bother with every weapon. I'm missing Blade (confusing name), Broadsword, Spear, and Halberd (and perhaps others).

Close range is in physical contact, right in your face. Short range is 1m to 5m, described as sword to polearm range.

HTH

 

[Straybow]

Close range being under 1m is what I recalled, thank you. That is the source of my concern because the DMs don't look right.

Foil/Rapier should have the highest Close range penalty. It is almost solely a stabbing weapon, and is useless once the opponent is "inside" it's reach.

Rapier is probably a better term, since the Foil developed much later and had only a thrusting tip with mere inches of sharpened length. Rapier was often sharpened for more than half its length and could deliver cuts through light clothing. The English called it the smallsword.

Cutlasses, as single-edged weapons, were more effective in close as the back of the blade could be gripped or pressed to deliver cuts to the opponent.

There are also the cavalry Sabre (generally a lighter, curved blade with a foot of the tip sharpened on both edges) and the "hanger" (a short, single-edged blade typically carried in an over-the-shoulder harness or "hanger").

The major difference between (Long-) Sword and Broadsword is balance. The older broadsword has (nearly) parallel blades and lacks an effective counterweight. The Longsword has a tapered blade (made possible by higher quality late Medieval steel) and a substantial counterweight in the pommel, giving excellent balance.

Because of its balance the Longsword was more effective in close than the Broadsword, which was mostly limited to bashing with the basket/pommel.

I prefer to rename "Blade" as Bowie or Longknife.

One problem with CT is the restriction to sixers makes the subtle differences difficult to show. You can throw in a D&D style ±1 damage to differentiate light and heavy versions of Cutlass, for example.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Straybow, I think most of those things should be handled by referees. Let's keep the list simple and short (though a supplement with all kinds of "archaic" weapons in it wouldn't be a bad idea... ).

Oh, and I have to insist on keeping Blade. C'mon! It's Traveller, after all!

 

[Uncle Bob]

A rapier typically weighed 1.15 Kg with a a 105 cm blade. That was in Elizabetham times, sometimes it was longer, sometimes shorter, rarely lighter. The Sword is close enough, after all a rapier was just called espada or spada in Spanish or Italian by Carrenza, di Grassi or Capo Fera.

The Traveller "foil" seems to be identical to the eighteenth century smallsword, as described by McBane, Hope, or Angelo. "Foil" just means "blunt", and what we think of today as The Foil started off as the practice version of the smallsword. And a smallsword can be used very close by withdrawing the right leg.

The hanger hung from the waistebelt of every infantryman in the mid 17th to mid 18th century. At about 0.8-1 kg and 600-800 mm in the blade it was identical to contemporary cutlasses, just bought for Army regiments instead of ship's crews.

In close combat I would rank them
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> C S
Cutlass -1 0
Foil -2 +1
Sword -3 +2 </pre>[/QUOTE]I think the blade should be renamed the dirk or maybe the Bowie

. That avoids confusion with the cascade skill Blade Combat.

"Broadsword" is not a good name for a two handed sword. Broadsword sometimes means any double edged sword, more often any sword with a broad cutting blade (Angelo called a saber a "Hungarian Broadsword"). "Two-handed sword" would be best, but if that is too wordy I suggest longsword

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:

"Broadsword" is not a good name for a two handed sword. Broadsword sometimes means any double edged sword, more often any sword with a broad cutting blade (Angelo called a saber a "Hungarian Broadsword"). "Two-handed sword" would be best, but if that is too wordy I suggest longsword

I suggest using the term "Greatsword" for what CT now calls the "Broadsword."

 

[Uncle Bob]

Greatsword is possible, but not ideal. It is current vernacular for the two handed sword (and how it is used by the SCA), but when the term was in common use it referred to the "sword of war". That is, a slightly longer version of the Knight's one-handed sword with a 1 1/2 hand handle. Kinda like a bastard sword.

To the best of my knowledge the two handed sword was always called the two handed sword in English. In gaelic the cleadheamr da lamh (sp) litterally "sword two hands" (never "claymore" until a century after they were all in museums). German doppleschwert, Italian spadrone (okay, that doesn't work). The English word "longsword" probably doesn't really mean the same thing, but
langenschwert (sp) meant a bastard or two handed sword.

And you guys thought I was just anal about smallarms.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Uncle, I think Blade Combat should be subsumed under a Melee Combat - so, no confusion (and Bowies don't have a basket hilt!). My 0.02Cr:
Cutlass (all sabers, cutlasses, scimitars) (for "tradition")
Sword (falchions, gladius (gladii?), etc.)
Large sword (bastards, longswords, etc.)
Claymore (for all the really huge stuff - high min STR)
Rapier or Foil (all the duelling/light swords)
Blade (a Traveller-only thing)
Knife (daggers, main gauches, bowies)
Bayonet (works as Spear and Sword)
Spear (anything long and pointy)
Axe (battleaxe)
Halberd (long and pointy axes)
Brawling (fisticuffs, bar fights w/ bottles, etc.)
Unarmed Combat (fancy, but deadlier, brawling)

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
A rapier typically weighed 1.15 Kg with a a 105 cm blade. That was in Elizabetham times, sometimes it was longer, sometimes shorter, rarely lighter. The Sword is close enough, after all a rapier was just called espada or spada in Spanish or Italian by Carrenza, di Grassi or Capo Fera.

That's only because by the 17th century the Spanish and Italians had essentially abandoned all other swords.

And a smallsword can be used very close by withdrawing the right leg.

If "can be used" means "have no choice" then, yes... but still at such reduced effectiveness that it should have the highest penalty for Close range of any one-handed weapon.

The hanger hung from the waistebelt of every infantryman in the mid 17th to mid 18th century. At about 0.8-1 kg and 600-800 mm in the blade it was identical to contemporary cutlasses, just bought for Army regiments instead of ship's crews.

But not identicle to the heftier CT Cutlass, which is our exemplar.

In close combat I would rank them
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> C S
Cutlass -1 0
Foil -4 -1
Sword -3 0 </pre>[/QUOTE]I eschew significant DMs at Short for one-handed weapons. Foil is an exception because it is limited in its mode of attack, by definition, a disadvantage. In the British Civil War the Roundheads with their trusty, old-fashioned swords made short work of the Royalist gentry bearing rapiers. The latter soon adopted "the sword for battle, the rapier for honor."

Greatsword is possible, but not ideal. It is current vernacular for the two handed sword (and how it is used by the SCA), but when the term was in common use it referred to the "sword of war". That is, a slightly longer version of the Knight's one-handed sword with a 1 1/2 hand handle. Kinda like a bastard sword.

To the best of my knowledge the two handed sword was always called the two handed sword in English.

The terminology was ever changing. The English almost never used the continental two-hander, so their references to it are mostly describing the opponents' weapons. The English overwhelmingly prefered the bill when it came to heavy arms, even as far back as Anglo-Saxons defending against the Norman invaders. The somewhat smaller bastard swords were in some use.

When the Renaissance era English spoke of the two-handed sword in their own training it seems they meant the sword of war exclusively. Bastard or continental two-hand swords were then called "long swords" as a class.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Bowies (particularly during the Civil War) sometimes have sabre hilts. The Bowie is defined by the honkin' big blade, not the hilt.

An ...interesting... list. I have no problem with your Large Sword, Axe, Halberd, Brawling, or Unarmed Combat catagories. The rest...

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Straybow:
That's only because by the 17th century the Spanish and Italians had essentially abandoned all other swords.

Demonstrably not true. The seventeenth century was the height of the Italian Schiavonna. And two of my sources are 16th century, inclding di Grassi's study of the spadone, the two handed sword.

If "can be used" means "have no choice" then, yes... but still at such reduced effectiveness that it should have the highest penalty for Close range of any one-handed weapon.

Actually, it means "I have done it with blunts and it works quite nicely, as long as you keep your nerve."

Foil is an exception because it is limited in its mode of attack, by definition, a disadvantage. In the British Civil War the Roundheads with their trusty, old-fashioned swords made short work of the Royalist gentry bearing rapiers. The latter soon adopted "the sword for battle, the rapier for honor."

Apples and Oranges. The ECW rapier was a foot longer and a twice as heavy as the smallsword/"foil"

The terminology was ever changing. The English almost never used the continental two-hander, so their references to it are mostly describing the opponents' weapons. The English overwhelmingly prefered the bill when it came to heavy arms, even as far back as Anglo-Saxons defending against the Norman invaders. The somewhat smaller bastard swords were in some use.

When the Renaissance era English spoke of the two-handed sword in their own training it seems they meant the sword of war exclusively. Bastard or continental two-hand swords were then called "long swords" as a class.

One of the oldest datable two handed swords is the sword of Robert the Bruce. William Wallace's sword might be older, but it was rehilted (probably in the 16th Century)`so its provenance is no longer clear. Yeah, they're both Scots heros. But they were also part of the Anglo-Norman aristoracy that ran both countries. And the Bruces also held land in England.

By the 16th century Britain produced a distintive two-hander with a broad cutting blade about 3 1/2 feet long and a 1 1/2 foot hilt. The same porportions held with the English, Lowland Scots, and Highland variations in hilt style. George Silver in his 1599 treatise Paradoxes of Defence discusses it as a native English weapon.

This was a bit shorter and lighter than continental doppleschwert/spadone, but it seems to have been used in similar ways.

 

[Golan2072]

My Weapon and Vehicle Skill House Rules:

1) The "Gun Combat" sub-skills for ALL services are as follows (astrisk denotes a new weapon which will appear in the upcoming Weapon Section of the document):
- Combat Rifleman (Rifle, Carbine, Assault Rifle, Advanced Combat Rifle, Gauss Rifle). Army/Marine soldiers have to take this as their first Gun Combat skill; other characters may take whatever Gun Combat subcategory they want.
- Pistol (Body Pistol, Revolver, Auto-Pistol).
- Submachinegun (Submachinegun, Gauss Submachinegun*).
- Shotgun (Shotgun, Combat Shotgun*).
- Laser Weapons (Laser Pistol*, Laser Carbine, Laser Rifle).
- Zero-G Weapons (Snub Pistol, Accelerator Rifle).
- High Energy Weapons (PGMP-12 and the PGMP-13 prototype).
- Auto-Weapons (Auto-Rifle, LMG, HMG).
- Flame Throwers (Flamethrower*, Light Flamer*).
- Bow Weapons (Compound Bow, Short Bow, Long Bow)
- Crossbows (Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow)
- Archaic Firearms (Muzzle-loader Rifle, Muzzle-loader Pistol, Precussion Rifle, Precussion Pistol, Precussion Revolver, Blunderbass)

2) Blade Combat - use the LBB1 cascade rules (each weapon has it's own skill).

3) Vehicle Skills - the following are subcategories of the Vehicle cascade skills:
- Wheeled (Does not cascades further; includes ATVs, ground cars and wheeled APCs among others).
- Tracked (Does not cascades further; includes Tracked ATVs, AFVs and APCs, tractors and most TL10- heavy military vehicles).
- Gravcraft (Does not cascades further; includes G-Carriers, Air/Rafts, Speeders and so on).
- Aircraft (cascades into Fixed Wing, Tilt Wing, Rotary Wing and Lighter than Air).
- Watercraft (cascades into Small Watercraft, Large Watercraft, Hoovercraft and Submarisble).

4) Gunnery - cascades to Ship Weapons and Vehicle Weapons. Naval characters must choose Ship Weapons under most circumstances unless they already posses a Vehicle skill.

 

[Uncle Bob]

A trivial comment, and Only one,
If rifle and pistol deserve different skills, don't Archaic Rifle and Pistol?