mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I don't know if this was mentioned earlier or not, but has everyone got the rules for generating Hiver worlds? By this I mean that CT Alien Module 7 Hivers has modifications to the CT UPP generation system for Hiver worlds.
CT Era Spica sector UWP data, by subsector
- Thread starter Flynn
- Start date
M
Malenfant
Guest
Er, I'd object to a TL 20 world. That stuff is straight-out Ancient level tech. TL 17 is pretty much the highest in Charted Space isn't it, and that's confined strictly to Sabmiqys. (OK, there's the Inheritor Dyson Sphere in the Nooq sector, but that's far out of the way and was never fully developed anyway. IIRC it's about TL 14 now)
You'd have to come up with some very contrived excuse as to why this technology hasn't spread across the sector or why this world hasn't just run rings around everyone else and conquered them. As such I don't think it would really add anything to the sector - like Sambiqys, it'd be a case of "it's there, but inaccessible".
You'd have to come up with some very contrived excuse as to why this technology hasn't spread across the sector or why this world hasn't just run rings around everyone else and conquered them. As such I don't think it would really add anything to the sector - like Sambiqys, it'd be a case of "it's there, but inaccessible".
M
Malenfant
Guest
I don't. I have none of the CT Aliens books. It'd be useful to know... (one of these days, I'll pick up the Aliens reprints...)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TL20 is possible under UPP generation rules and its about time it was investigated for gaming potential IMHO. The purpose is to present a mystery, offer a reward and see if the players would pay the price...
As for munchkinism, do you let your players get hold of grav tanks, meson sleds and fusion guns?
How many nuclear subs did the US sell to private individuals last year?
Don't worry, I'd send the details before including it, I just wanted to see how far we are allowed to push canon
And TL20 isn't anywhere near Ancient TLs, they don't really start until TL25...
(you should have seen some of the nasty surprises on a Core expedition once)
As for munchkinism, do you let your players get hold of grav tanks, meson sleds and fusion guns?
How many nuclear subs did the US sell to private individuals last year?
Don't worry, I'd send the details before including it, I just wanted to see how far we are allowed to push canon
And TL20 isn't anywhere near Ancient TLs, they don't really start until TL25...
(you should have seen some of the nasty surprises on a Core expedition once)
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, the highest TL world you can generate is:
1) you roll 6 on 1d for the TL roll
2) you have a Type A Starport (+6 = 12)
3) the world is size 0 or 1 (+2 = 14)
4) the world is atm 0-3 (or A-E, but a size 0 or 1 world can't have that) (+1 =15).
5) Hydrographics 9 or A. But a size 0 or 1 world can't have that.
6) Pop A (+4 = 19)
7) Gov 5 (which is the only one a Pop A world can have which has modifiers).
A valid UWP for this would be:
A000A5AK or
A100A5AK
Frankly, such a world is seems rather silly to me. Why would a world with tens of billions of people be a feudal technocracy and still have TL 20?! I have plans for the social side of the UWP though that would change the modifiers anyway...
Not to mention that it's very unlikely too.
16.7% (TL)
16.7% (Starport A)
8.3% (size 0 or 1)
2.8% (pop A)
2.8% (gov 5)
So the chance of getting that is 0.00018% , or one in about 5600 worlds. I think.
1) you roll 6 on 1d for the TL roll
2) you have a Type A Starport (+6 = 12)
3) the world is size 0 or 1 (+2 = 14)
4) the world is atm 0-3 (or A-E, but a size 0 or 1 world can't have that) (+1 =15).
5) Hydrographics 9 or A. But a size 0 or 1 world can't have that.
6) Pop A (+4 = 19)
7) Gov 5 (which is the only one a Pop A world can have which has modifiers).
A valid UWP for this would be:
A000A5AK or
A100A5AK
Frankly, such a world is seems rather silly to me. Why would a world with tens of billions of people be a feudal technocracy and still have TL 20?! I have plans for the social side of the UWP though that would change the modifiers anyway...
Not to mention that it's very unlikely too.
16.7% (TL)
16.7% (Starport A)
8.3% (size 0 or 1)
2.8% (pop A)
2.8% (gov 5)
So the chance of getting that is 0.00018% , or one in about 5600 worlds. I think.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That's why this is a game that requires imagination...
And there are what, 11000 worlds in the Imperium?
There should be 2 of them
And there are what, 11000 worlds in the Imperium?
There should be 2 of them
M
Malenfant
Guest
You should know by now that I'm unconviced by the "use your imagination" excuse when faced with a wacky UWP
.
Why do think David Pulver put the Inheritor's Dyson Sphere literally at the Trailing edge of Charted Space, way beyond all the Major races? Because if it was placed in a less out-of-the-way area it would have been too big a disruption to canon. If it had been say, smack bang in the middle of the Hive Federation or the Solomani Confederation then it would have been much more important in history.
Sabmiqys has an excuse because it's quarantined and the inhabitants don't want to leave anyway (AFAIK). What would be the excuse for your TL 20 world?
Right now, it just sounds too much like you want to put it in just as an excuse to have it there. Plus you haven't really said what you have in mind anyway. How would its presence be justified? Why haven't the inhabitants spread throughout the sector? And why hasn't the technology spread also? Surely everyone outside would want a piece of it...
Why do think David Pulver put the Inheritor's Dyson Sphere literally at the Trailing edge of Charted Space, way beyond all the Major races? Because if it was placed in a less out-of-the-way area it would have been too big a disruption to canon. If it had been say, smack bang in the middle of the Hive Federation or the Solomani Confederation then it would have been much more important in history.
Sabmiqys has an excuse because it's quarantined and the inhabitants don't want to leave anyway (AFAIK). What would be the excuse for your TL 20 world?
Right now, it just sounds too much like you want to put it in just as an excuse to have it there. Plus you haven't really said what you have in mind anyway. How would its presence be justified? Why haven't the inhabitants spread throughout the sector? And why hasn't the technology spread also? Surely everyone outside would want a piece of it...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Feudal tecnocracy - government by the technological elite over those who agree to be ruled.
So the populous chooses to be ruled by technologically enhanced, or technologically based rulers.
There's a ringworld just over the border...
So the populous chooses to be ruled by technologically enhanced, or technologically based rulers.
There's a ringworld just over the border...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Outsiders are not welcome... or worse they are fed into the recycler vats
M
Malenfant
Guest
So what do you have in mind? 50 billion robots with uploaded intelligences ruled by AIs on planetary supercomputers? That'll be fun when Virus hits...
Enough with the hint-dropping already! What exactly do you have in mind here?
Yes, and IIRC it's just the bare framework of one that was abandoned before it was finished. And again, it's pretty much off-limits to everyone.
I wouldn't be too keen on such a high TL world as part of the scope of this project myself. Others have mostly covered why. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a fun thing to have in a campaign sometime, but I think it strays from the original vision of re-vamping this sector. I think we should be staying along the lines of taking Spica and turning it into the potential bed of intrigue vs Hivers and Sollies with a dash of other additions, plus proper stellar data, history and where needed UWPs.
I'm still not convinced about changing system/mainworld names either, I haven't heard a good argument for that yet other than someone just not liking the current ones?
In my opinion, I think we should stick as close to the original Spica Sector as possible. My reasons for that are; 1.) Credibility of the project and 2.) If we are going to change UWPs, Stellar Data, System/Mainworld Names, and add a bunch of stuff that is difficult to justify why it hasn't been mentioned before, why are we choosing Spica and not just somewhere on the fringe where we can do what the heck we like without any restrictions?
-Will
I'm still not convinced about changing system/mainworld names either, I haven't heard a good argument for that yet other than someone just not liking the current ones?
In my opinion, I think we should stick as close to the original Spica Sector as possible. My reasons for that are; 1.) Credibility of the project and 2.) If we are going to change UWPs, Stellar Data, System/Mainworld Names, and add a bunch of stuff that is difficult to justify why it hasn't been mentioned before, why are we choosing Spica and not just somewhere on the fringe where we can do what the heck we like without any restrictions?
-Will
M
Malenfant
Guest
I don't see how the credibility of the project would be affected by changing the UWPs. All the stellar data needs to be completely changed to make it realistic, so it's already going to be different from canon. If we're doing that, then we may as well change the UWPs to make them more realistic too (this is a golden opportunity to do so, too). Changing the names avoids any confusion and also allows us to be a bit more creative
.
To be honest, I think people are making too big a deal about the UWP changes. It won't change the core thing about the sector at al, which as you say is turning Spica in the potential bed of intrigue between Hivers and Solomani. We're still going to be broadly sticking to the timeline established by canon. I think it's more important to focus on the background and politics and interactions. The setting isn't going to change just because the UWPs are different (since we're going to make sure that the UWPs fit the desired setting).
Realistically speaking, I don't believe that anybody is particularly attached to the old UWPs anyway - they showed up once in an old book that's out of print that not an awful lot of people have access to. Beyond that, all the electronic versions don't really do anything to make it more valid, and they're mostly very unrealistic anyway.
To be honest, I think people are making too big a deal about the UWP changes. It won't change the core thing about the sector at al, which as you say is turning Spica in the potential bed of intrigue between Hivers and Solomani. We're still going to be broadly sticking to the timeline established by canon. I think it's more important to focus on the background and politics and interactions. The setting isn't going to change just because the UWPs are different (since we're going to make sure that the UWPs fit the desired setting).
Realistically speaking, I don't believe that anybody is particularly attached to the old UWPs anyway - they showed up once in an old book that's out of print that not an awful lot of people have access to. Beyond that, all the electronic versions don't really do anything to make it more valid, and they're mostly very unrealistic anyway.
Heya Malefant, I think you misunderstood me I think, point 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. I think the UWPs not making sense is perfect justification for changing them, I just think we should stick to Canon where possible and where it makes sense (so UWPs not making sense = change it, as opposed to: system/mainworld names = change it cause we can). I think there is plenty of opportunity to be creative in this sector without changing things for the sake of it. I actually disagree that changing the names avoids confusion, I think it sets us up for more confusion when someone looks at one map of Spica, then ours and almost all of the names are something else completelyOriginally posted by Malenfant:
I don't see how the credibility of the project would be affected by changing the UWPs. All the stellar data needs to be completely changed to make it realistic, so it's already going to be different from canon. If we're doing that, then we may as well change the UWPs to make them more realistic too (this is a golden opportunity to do so, too). Changing the names avoids any confusion and also allows us to be a bit more creative.
To be honest, I think people are making too big a deal about the UWP changes. It won't change the core thing about the sector at al, which as you say is turning Spica in the potential bed of intrigue between Hivers and Solomani. We're still going to be broadly sticking to the timeline established by canon. I think it's more important to focus on the background and politics and interactions. The setting isn't going to change just because the UWPs are different (since we're going to make sure that the UWPs fit the desired setting).
Realistically speaking, I don't believe that anybody is particularly attached to the old UWPs anyway - they showed up once in an old book that's out of print that not an awful lot of people have access to. Beyond that, all the electronic versions don't really do anything to make it more valid, and they're mostly very unrealistic anyway.
.-W.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Where is the canon stellar data for Spica?
AFAIK AotI is the only canon data on Spica, and it doesn't include Stellar data at all so we'd have to generate it all from scratch anyway.
Why throw away AotI, and with it a concrete link to canon, when all that needs to be kept is the basic data, everything else still needs to be designed?
AFAIK AotI is the only canon data on Spica, and it doesn't include Stellar data at all so we'd have to generate it all from scratch anyway.
Why throw away AotI, and with it a concrete link to canon, when all that needs to be kept is the basic data, everything else still needs to be designed?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
All there is is starport type, mainworld with/without water, mainworld is an asteroid belt, gas giant in system or not, and bases present. Oh, and the high population worlds are named.
We don't know any stellar data, world size (apart from the asteroid mainworlds, atmosphere type, hydrographics (apart from the desert worlds), population (apart from the worlds that must be 9 or A), government type, law level.
If we keep known data where possible for size, hydrographics, population that still leaves an enormous amount of data to play with and construct more realistic UWPs.
We don't know any stellar data, world size (apart from the asteroid mainworlds, atmosphere type, hydrographics (apart from the desert worlds), population (apart from the worlds that must be 9 or A), government type, law level.
If we keep known data where possible for size, hydrographics, population that still leaves an enormous amount of data to play with and construct more realistic UWPs.
. Which source is the Data from Flynn at the beginning of this post from?
M
Malenfant
Guest
The named worlds in the list that Flynn provided (which I thought was from AotI) aren't just hi-pop worlds - there are a few others in there. That said, it does appear that most of the worlds don't even have names from that list.
If the UWPs he provides aren't valid anyway and all we have are Starport, gas giant, base and water presence, and whether the world is an asteroid belt, then that's not so bad.
But in that case we'll need someone to post THAT info direct from AotI. It does make things awkward from a practical POV though - it makes it much harder to write a program that'll generate UWPs, because they'd have to stick to those constraints.
I think at most I'd say it's OK to keep the hi-pop worlds, since there aren't that many of them. I suspect it's going to be a lot easier from a generation POV to regenerate all the other info.
If the UWPs he provides aren't valid anyway and all we have are Starport, gas giant, base and water presence, and whether the world is an asteroid belt, then that's not so bad.
But in that case we'll need someone to post THAT info direct from AotI. It does make things awkward from a practical POV though - it makes it much harder to write a program that'll generate UWPs, because they'd have to stick to those constraints.
I think at most I'd say it's OK to keep the hi-pop worlds, since there aren't that many of them. I suspect it's going to be a lot easier from a generation POV to regenerate all the other info.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I count 36 high pop worlds in total, they are all in the places Flynn has named, except 0917 is called JUESS in AotI.
I don't mind inputing the data by hand, I can use Flynn's formatting to speed it up, but it'll still take a couple of days.
I don't mind inputing the data by hand, I can use Flynn's formatting to speed it up, but it'll still take a couple of days.
M
Malenfant
Guest
EDIT: Actually, you know what, I can't even understand keeping the hipop worlds - at the moment they're randomly determined. I'm plotting the 9+ pop worlds out on a sector map now and it seems obvious that there's no logic to their placement.
I thought the aim was to work from the top-down here. Which means looking at the location and arrangement of worlds (which we are keeping from AotI), figuring out where the clusters are, and then placing the hi-pop worlds as appropriate to fit with what we have in mind for the history. We cannot do that if we're constrained by existing hi-pop world locations.
And is the rest of the info really that important to preserve?
I thought the aim was to work from the top-down here. Which means looking at the location and arrangement of worlds (which we are keeping from AotI), figuring out where the clusters are, and then placing the hi-pop worlds as appropriate to fit with what we have in mind for the history. We cannot do that if we're constrained by existing hi-pop world locations.
And is the rest of the info really that important to preserve?
