CT Challenge - SDB using HG

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
This challenge is to see what kinds of SDB boats they can design using the following stipulations:

All SDB's must have at least 5G and Agility 5. Each SDB must carry the best computer it can (fiber optic) carry. Each SDB must have at least a rated armor of 4 or more. Tech level must be 12 or 13 and the spinal mounts must be Meson.

If possible - extrapolate what your design would look like at its introduction at TL 12, and one generation later at TL 13.

 

[mike wightman]

Is there a size limit?

Other than by computer model.

 

[DaveChase]

Yes, are there any other limits at all?

Thanks.

Dave

 

[daryen]

Well, since you are talking about "spinal mounts", I assume you are actually talking about battle riders sans carrier.

I have three here that would match your description. They are TL15 at 20Kdton and 10Kdton, and TL12 at 20Kdton. All are manuever 6 with max armor. (The TL12 is only agility 5, tho.)

I made them as a comparison for the strike cruisers I was trying to design. My "strike cruisers" were intended to to be the smallest effective ships I could make that had an effective meson spinal mount. If you are curious, they are here .

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by daryen:
Well, since you are talking about "spinal mounts", I assume you are actually talking about battle riders sans carrier.

I have three here that would match your description. They are TL15 at 20Kdton and 10Kdton, and TL12 at 20Kdton. All are manuever 6 with max armor. (The TL12 is only agility 5, tho.)

I made them as a comparison for the strike cruisers I was trying to design. My "strike cruisers" were intended to to be the smallest effective ships I could make that had an effective meson spinal mount. If you are curious, they are here .

HOLY COW! The prices on those ships!

What I was hoping to do was recreate what some of those System Defense Fleets must be like for Fifth Frontier War (the boardgame). By looking to see what some system boats would cost, and taking a guess at what it would take in HIGH GUARD to match the capabilities of the System Defense boats - I wondered if I could price the fleets. The reason I chose to limit such ships to TL 12 and 13 is because most of the worlds wouldn't likely have access to the Highest Cutting edge technology of the Imperium and that the system defense boats would have to be made according to the local tech.
I fear that if I went lower than TL 12, for example, TL 11 - the possibility of cracking any of the Meson Screens would be very limited (as it turns out, a class A and/or B meson gun can't get past a level 9 Meson Screen at all). Then again, if the System Defense Boats are up against Zhodani fleets - they'd only need to worry about level 6 Meson Screens.

By the by, thank you for posting those designs

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Is there a size limit?

Other than by computer model.

Tech level Limits have just been loosened a little. Tech level limits are from TL 11 on up to TL 13. Tech levels 14+ are verboten.

Size Limits aren't really a major issue, but I suspect that most of the planetary Governments are going to want the most bang for their buck. If however, you can demonstrate that One reasonably large SDB is better than 3 of the smallest you can build your spinal mount ships with - go for it

Another comment, There will likely be planetary Defense systems that incorporate Meson Guns buried in the planetary Crust. I'm going to have to determine how those will end up costing the government(s) who employ them in their defense strategy.

 

[SanDragon]

I thought atmospheres degraded the meson beam?

 

[mike wightman]

Nope, according to Traveller canon meson beams pass through intervening matter to explode at their target point.
Only meson screens and force fields (black and white globes) can stop them.

 

[mike wightman]

I think I can fit maneuver5/agility5, spinal Meson E, AF12 into a 10kt hull at TL13.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I know it is short 2 points of armour but when dealing with Meson guns this is hardly important.

There is room to add a few more turrets. 20 triple missile turrets organized as two batteries would only add two to the crew. Giving you 18 tons of missile mags and half a stateroom. Meaning everyone but the CO double bunks.

With this ship given a Configuration 7 Battle Tender you could replace each of the 30KTon riders with 6 of these. Typically giving you 36 of these vs 6 Battleriders. Talk about a battlefield multiplier. This is more than 4 times the firepower of a typical BatRon.

The Traveller equivalent of an LAC-LAC Carrier. Or the Traveller equivalent of a US Aircraft Carrier.

Ship: Seydlitz
Class: Seydlitz
Type: Strike Monitor
Architect: Bruce Hoins
Tech Level: 13

USP
LS-E305MG2-202200-400E0-0 MCr 8,355.000 5 KTons
Bat Bear 5 1 Crew: 78
Bat 5 1 TL: 13

Cargo: 47.000 Fuel: 525.000 EP: 1,050.000 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 5
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Substitutions: Z = 26

Architects Fee: MCr 83.550 Cost in Quantity: MCr 6,684.000


Detailed Description

HULL
5,000.000 tons standard, 70,000.000 cubic meters, Cylinder Configuration

CREW
14 Officers, 64 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-21, 1,050.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/7fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 5 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-E), 5 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-2), Meson Screen (Factor-2), Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
525.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 14 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
40.0 Staterooms, 47.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 8,438.550 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 83.550), MCr 6,684.000 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
148 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS: Idea taken from TA7 converted to HG using HighGuard Shipyard.

 

[daryen]

The reason the armor 4 is important is the nuclear missles. A few missle escorts will take out your 5Kdton meson boats pretty quickly, but the more heavily armored 10Kdton and 20Kdton battle riders will have much more staying power.

So, while your ships allow 2x or 4x as many meson guns, the concern is that your attrition will be even greater than that. (I don't know; I haven't tried to run any numbers.)

 

[flykiller]

HOLY COW! The prices on those ships!

losing is more expensive.

The reason I chose to limit such ships to TL 12 and 13 is because most of the worlds wouldn't likely have access to the Highest Cutting edge technology of the Imperium and that the system defense boats would have to be made according to the local tech.

in HG2, up against a tech F fleet a tech E fleet needs three times as many vessels, a tech D fleet causes little damage, and a tech C fleet might as well be a bunch of beer cans. serious warships will be tech F, the rest will be constrained to guerrila actions.

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, I did a quick numbers look, after playing with building a couple 10Kton TL13 SDBs based on the above.

Pitting them against a Plankwell (from a related thread), for the same value as a Plankwell I could build 10 10Kton SDBs. Problem is the Plankwell is gonna obliterate one a turn with the 8 automatic criticals from its meson cannon, while the poor SDBs plink away, and if a little lucky, they may score 3 meson hits IN TOTAL to penetrate before all 10 are dust. If I did the numbers right and didn't miss anything.

The only real hope a low tech world has against a high tech dreadnaught is, maybe, a huge honking buffered planetoid monitor.

 

[Hal]

Hi Far-trader,
I'm not too worried about whether the boats win or not per se. I'm only trying to recreate what is involved for the SDB's for any given world. As it stands now? FFW has a rule that states you have to add/subtract 1/2 tech levels (I forget the exact mechanism) from the die roll. This can increase or decrease the casualties in a combat round between SDB's and Squadrons.

The thing here however is to try and figure out what a SDB "factor" is - and how much it costs to have it. The SDB's come under the heading of "Planetary fleet". When working with a given "budget" of any given world - that fleet and its maintenance would be an issue.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by flykiller:

in HG2, up against a tech F fleet a tech E fleet needs three times as many vessels, a tech D fleet causes little damage, and a tech C fleet might as well be a bunch of beer cans. serious warships will be tech F, the rest will be constrained to guerrila actions.

Oddly enough? The exchange rate between a GURPS tech 10 fleet (Trav Tech 12&13) is 3.1 local per 1 CrImp

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Pitting them against a Plankwell (from a related thread), for the same value as a Plankwell I could build 10 10Kton SDBs. Problem is the Plankwell is gonna obliterate one a turn with the 8 automatic criticals from its meson cannon, while the poor SDBs plink away, and if a little lucky, they may score 3 meson hits IN TOTAL to penetrate before all 10 are dust. If I did the numbers right and didn't miss anything.

Doesn't each of those penetrating meson hits then get 5 damage rolls on the internal hits and the radiation damage table?
15 damage rolls on each should guarantee a fuel tanks shattered or crew 1 result which cause the Plankwell problems.

Not as big a problem as the 80 missile bays, 40 PA batteries, 10 laser and 15 fusion gun batteries which should mission kill all ten of those SDBs by turn 2

Odd that the Plankwell only has a factor 3 meson screen though?

 

[BetterThanLife]

These aren't Battleriders, they aren't Drednaughts, they are Light Attack Craft. The traveller equivalent to an Avenger Torpedo Bomber or Helldiver. Or more properly a Torpedo Boat.

A squadron of them with battletender is going to have escorts as well. They are only twice the cost of a Sloan FE. with alot more firepower. With a little tweeking I am sure I can throw a 50T missile bay on it. (I only have to come up with 10 tons.)

Besides at 30Ktons even the AHL Frontier Cruiser is going to cause automatic crits on you. Since you are dealing with auto crits you might as well bring more toys to the party.

These are 1/20th the cost of a Kokirrak. You get 54 of them for the price of a Tigress. Roughly 5 of them for the price of a typical 30Kton Battlerider. And they are only TL13, so you can build them in more places.

Oh the Nuclear Dampers factor 2 should keep most of the small nukes off you. The design is far from perfect, but for what it is it is extremely nasty.

Originally posted by daryen:
The reason the armor 4 is important is the nuclear missles. A few missle escorts will take out your 5Kdton meson boats pretty quickly, but the more heavily armored 10Kdton and 20Kdton battle riders will have much more staying power.

So, while your ships allow 2x or 4x as many meson guns, the concern is that your attrition will be even greater than that. (I don't know; I haven't tried to run any numbers.)

 

[far-trader]

Well if you take the advantage of the exchange rate and apply it to the 10Kton SDB* that will give you a pack of about 30 to every dreadnaught intruder. With those numbers you could probably scrub off the annoying weapons and put a dent in the fuel before you lost too many. That will leave the dreadnaught stuck in system (no jump out) and you can start scoring hits reducing the spinal meson, which will lower your own casualties. Eventually you should kill it. I'd expect losses of about 30-60% or more though.

Anybody want to PBEM the scenario of single Plankwell vs a pack of 30 or so 10Kton SBDs? High Guard budget for the fleet of SDBs at MCr361,482 at TL12 (or MCr240,988 for TL13).

This may not be getting you closer to what you are after in these threads but that's just me not being hit hard enough on the head yet to understand

* In the small ship CT universe (book 2) I'd say 400tons or 600tons would be a Heavy SDB, but since HG (book 5) introduced the concept of a big ship CT universe with a factor of some 100 times larger you could argue for Heavy SDBs in the 40Kton to 60Kton range so maybe that'll be my next go around for fun. Though it will reduce the auto crits a little the effectiveness won't be much better and they are a little easier to hit.

 

[mike wightman]

How do you want to do the PBM?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Pitting them against a Plankwell (from a related thread), for the same value as a Plankwell I could build 10 10Kton SDBs. Problem is the Plankwell is gonna obliterate one a turn with the 8 automatic criticals from its meson cannon, while the poor SDBs plink away, and if a little lucky, they may score 3 meson hits IN TOTAL to penetrate before all 10 are dust. If I did the numbers right and didn't miss anything.

Doesn't each of those penetrating meson hits then get 5 damage rolls on the internal hits and the radiation damage table?
15 damage rolls on each should guarantee a fuel tanks shattered or crew 1 result which cause the Plankwell problems.</font>[/QUOTE]Is it 5 damage rolls per hit? It's been awhile, I could be forgetting <scour book> hmm, nope don't see it. Just a single damage roll on the tables the way I read it.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Not as big a problem as the 80 missile bays, 40 PA batteries, 10 laser and 15 fusion gun batteries which should mission kill all ten of those SDBs by turn 2

Odd that the Plankwell only has a factor 3 meson screen though?

Yeah, I had some defense against the small weapons with repulsor bays, sand, armor and a little damper so I mostly ignored them as inconsequential compared to the outright kill all but guranteed by the 8 auto-criticals from the spinal meson. I guess realistically that could add a kill or two a turn wiping out the SDB fleet much quicker, so it might only get one successful hit for damage.

I too found it strange the Plankwell only has a factor 3 meson screen, must be a power plant issue. Then again there's the school of "the best defense is a superior offense" which works well for it in this scenario