Cover in CT combat Rules

[Michael Taylor]

After searching for any cover modifiers in CT, I find (unless i'm blind) that there are none. Is this correct? Are there no negative modifiers to hit if you are enclosed in a pillbox or behind a stone wall as opposed to standing in the open?
I'm sure someone out there can clarify.

regards

Mike

 

[Michael Taylor]

After searching for any cover modifiers in CT, I find (unless i'm blind) that there are none. Is this correct? Are there no negative modifiers to hit if you are enclosed in a pillbox or behind a stone wall as opposed to standing in the open?
I'm sure someone out there can clarify.

regards

Mike

 

[far-trader]

Hmm, odd, I thought Snapshot had cover rules but its actually "cover" as in "got ya covered" and "cover me". So it seems CT and Snapshot are clear line of sight only, no fire possible on anyone in a structure or hidden. Unless its covered in Mercenary or Striker (I'd guess the latter for sure but don't recall and can't find either at the moment).

 

[far-trader]

Hmm, odd, I thought Snapshot had cover rules but its actually "cover" as in "got ya covered" and "cover me". So it seems CT and Snapshot are clear line of sight only, no fire possible on anyone in a structure or hidden. Unless its covered in Mercenary or Striker (I'd guess the latter for sure but don't recall and can't find either at the moment).

 

[far-trader]

OK, found my copy of Mercs and don't see anything in it but in "The Traveller Book" it says:

Cover and Concealment:

Cover is any solid object between the attacker and defender capable of protecting the defender from a weapon attack.

Concealment is any object that prevents viewing or sighting of the defender.

Cover may also be concealment; concealment is not necessarily cover.

An individual under cover cannot be attacked; an individual under concealment cannot be attacked unless the attacker has some reason to shoot into the area.

Individuals who attack from cover become visible and may themselves be attacked; because they retain partial cover they are eligible for a defending DM of -4. Individuals who attack from concealment provide reason to believe they are present, and may be attacked; because they remain partially concealed, they are allowed a defending DM of -1.

 

[far-trader]

OK, found my copy of Mercs and don't see anything in it but in "The Traveller Book" it says:

Cover and Concealment:

Cover is any solid object between the attacker and defender capable of protecting the defender from a weapon attack.

Concealment is any object that prevents viewing or sighting of the defender.

Cover may also be concealment; concealment is not necessarily cover.

An individual under cover cannot be attacked; an individual under concealment cannot be attacked unless the attacker has some reason to shoot into the area.

Individuals who attack from cover become visible and may themselves be attacked; because they retain partial cover they are eligible for a defending DM of -4. Individuals who attack from concealment provide reason to believe they are present, and may be attacked; because they remain partially concealed, they are allowed a defending DM of -1.

 

[Michael Taylor]

Thanks. I'm amazed there is not anything in books 1-3 or book 4

 

[Michael Taylor]

Thanks. I'm amazed there is not anything in books 1-3 or book 4

 

[far-trader]

You're welcome Michael. I found it odd too but then its been forever since I looked at the old LBB 1-3, using "The Traveller Book" instead. I wonder if the bit on Darkness and Night is in the old Book 1? I don't see it (or the cover and concealment rules) in my reprint from QLI, which lists it as second edition, c1977 and 1981. So I guess those rules were added sometime between '81 and '82 (when TTB was printed). Anyway for all you CT diehards...

Darkness and Night:

Poor lighting conditions may restrict the ability of an individual to see and attack. Total darkness restricts engagements to close and short range. Attacks with guns at greater than short range are subject to DM -9. Partial darkness (moonlit night, distant illumination, or other weak light sources) reduces visibility range to medium, and attacks with guns are subject to DM -6.

Electronic sights eliminate negative DMs due to darkness or poor lighting.

 

[far-trader]

You're welcome Michael. I found it odd too but then its been forever since I looked at the old LBB 1-3, using "The Traveller Book" instead. I wonder if the bit on Darkness and Night is in the old Book 1? I don't see it (or the cover and concealment rules) in my reprint from QLI, which lists it as second edition, c1977 and 1981. So I guess those rules were added sometime between '81 and '82 (when TTB was printed). Anyway for all you CT diehards...

Darkness and Night:

Poor lighting conditions may restrict the ability of an individual to see and attack. Total darkness restricts engagements to close and short range. Attacks with guns at greater than short range are subject to DM -9. Partial darkness (moonlit night, distant illumination, or other weak light sources) reduces visibility range to medium, and attacks with guns are subject to DM -6.

Electronic sights eliminate negative DMs due to darkness or poor lighting.

 

[Vargas]

What's the difference in what's contained in Books 1-3 and the Traveller Book. By the time I saw TTB, I already had the original 1977 and the 1981 deluxe edition rules and so passed it up.

 

[Vargas]

What's the difference in what's contained in Books 1-3 and the Traveller Book. By the time I saw TTB, I already had the original 1977 and the 1981 deluxe edition rules and so passed it up.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I believe the TTB is a campaign for Traveller. It's a large softcover trade paperback with red bordering top and bottom, which frames a picture in the middle.

On cover in CT; there're also terrain modifiers in the CT books. Off the top of my head I think fighting on open desert adds something like a +10 DM, while fighting in an office or starship interior is a -5 DM. Jungles are even worse than interior combat locations, IIRC. The point is that, apart from Snapshot, cover is actually already defined in the CT combat rules via a die modifier, and isn't defined beyond the die rolling conventions. That is to say there's no hard rule in the basic CT ruleset addressing this issue. Situations like "cover" or "concealment" area already addressed by the terrain modifier when factored into the range/armor chart.

This was kind of a mild pet peeve with our group way back when, because often the players would appeal to me to give a modifier for their characters lying prone behind a boulder, in a ditch, or crouching behind a tractor or other piece of machinery, and the rules simply didn't address this As a general rule I usually gave anything from a -1 to a -3 to the enemie's to hit roll, depending on how good or bad I thought the cover was.

This is something that could certainly be addressed in T5

I'll also add that this very issue is directly addressed and flushed out in the GURPS basic set.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I believe the TTB is a campaign for Traveller. It's a large softcover trade paperback with red bordering top and bottom, which frames a picture in the middle.

On cover in CT; there're also terrain modifiers in the CT books. Off the top of my head I think fighting on open desert adds something like a +10 DM, while fighting in an office or starship interior is a -5 DM. Jungles are even worse than interior combat locations, IIRC. The point is that, apart from Snapshot, cover is actually already defined in the CT combat rules via a die modifier, and isn't defined beyond the die rolling conventions. That is to say there's no hard rule in the basic CT ruleset addressing this issue. Situations like "cover" or "concealment" area already addressed by the terrain modifier when factored into the range/armor chart.

This was kind of a mild pet peeve with our group way back when, because often the players would appeal to me to give a modifier for their characters lying prone behind a boulder, in a ditch, or crouching behind a tractor or other piece of machinery, and the rules simply didn't address this As a general rule I usually gave anything from a -1 to a -3 to the enemie's to hit roll, depending on how good or bad I thought the cover was.

This is something that could certainly be addressed in T5

I'll also add that this very issue is directly addressed and flushed out in the GURPS basic set.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Vargas:
What's the difference in what's contained in Books 1-3 and the Traveller Book. By the time I saw TTB, I already had the original 1977 and the 1981 deluxe edition rules and so passed it up.

Well, as I used to understand it, "The Traveller Book"* was supposed to be a collection of the final editions (2nd I guess, copyright 1981) of LBB 1-3 in a single volume. With an introduction along the lines of LBB 0, as well as two short introductory adventures, a few guides and aids, a map and UPP's for Regina sub-sector, and a short Library Data section of interest to Regina sub-sector.

Apparently there are some extra rules too

I was going to retire my old TTB now that I have the compact reprint of LBB 1-3 from QLI but I guess I may have to make some notes, once I see what the differences are.

* Vol. 1, 1st Edition, copyright 1982. Mine is the hardcover edition with a classic black and red stripe and lettering under a dust jacket of blue borders with a picture of the "far-traveller" and her crew on it. The Traveller Bibliography has a picture of the softcover edition, which is like the dust jacket of the hardcover edition. Its here.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Vargas:
What's the difference in what's contained in Books 1-3 and the Traveller Book. By the time I saw TTB, I already had the original 1977 and the 1981 deluxe edition rules and so passed it up.

Well, as I used to understand it, "The Traveller Book"* was supposed to be a collection of the final editions (2nd I guess, copyright 1981) of LBB 1-3 in a single volume. With an introduction along the lines of LBB 0, as well as two short introductory adventures, a few guides and aids, a map and UPP's for Regina sub-sector, and a short Library Data section of interest to Regina sub-sector.

Apparently there are some extra rules too

I was going to retire my old TTB now that I have the compact reprint of LBB 1-3 from QLI but I guess I may have to make some notes, once I see what the differences are.

* Vol. 1, 1st Edition, copyright 1982. Mine is the hardcover edition with a classic black and red stripe and lettering under a dust jacket of blue borders with a picture of the "far-traveller" and her crew on it. The Traveller Bibliography has a picture of the softcover edition, which is like the dust jacket of the hardcover edition. Its here.

 

[mike wightman]

I believe the TTB is a campaign for Traveller. It's a large softcover trade paperback with red bordering top and bottom, which frames a picture in the middle.

That's The Traveller Adventure you've described (TTA), and here is a picture of it. . The Traveller Book has blue borders top and bottom and was available as a softcover and a hardcover version, here's a picture of it .
The terrain modifiers are for the encounter range roll at the begining of the combat
By the way, the cover and concealment, darkness, and the effects of zero gravity are all covered in the Traveller Starter edition (which also includes increased damage for ship's pulse lasers, but I digress), copyright 1983.

 

[mike wightman]

I believe the TTB is a campaign for Traveller. It's a large softcover trade paperback with red bordering top and bottom, which frames a picture in the middle.

That's The Traveller Adventure you've described (TTA), and here is a picture of it. . The Traveller Book has blue borders top and bottom and was available as a softcover and a hardcover version, here's a picture of it .
The terrain modifiers are for the encounter range roll at the begining of the combat
By the way, the cover and concealment, darkness, and the effects of zero gravity are all covered in the Traveller Starter edition (which also includes increased damage for ship's pulse lasers, but I digress), copyright 1983.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Blue Ghost:

On cover in CT; there're also terrain modifiers in the CT books. Off the top of my head I think fighting on open desert adds something like a +10 DM, while fighting in an office or starship interior is a -5 DM. Jungles are even worse than interior combat locations, IIRC. The point is that, apart from Snapshot, cover is actually already defined in the CT combat rules via a die modifier, and isn't defined beyond the die rolling conventions. That is to say there's no hard rule in the basic CT ruleset addressing this issue. Situations like "cover" or "concealment" area already addressed by the terrain modifier when factored into the range/armor chart.

Ah, but the CT Terrain DM's are only for encounter range determination, at least in LBB 1.

I expect T5 will (certainly should imo) include those two little rules additions (my posts above) from TTB.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Blue Ghost:

On cover in CT; there're also terrain modifiers in the CT books. Off the top of my head I think fighting on open desert adds something like a +10 DM, while fighting in an office or starship interior is a -5 DM. Jungles are even worse than interior combat locations, IIRC. The point is that, apart from Snapshot, cover is actually already defined in the CT combat rules via a die modifier, and isn't defined beyond the die rolling conventions. That is to say there's no hard rule in the basic CT ruleset addressing this issue. Situations like "cover" or "concealment" area already addressed by the terrain modifier when factored into the range/armor chart.

Ah, but the CT Terrain DM's are only for encounter range determination, at least in LBB 1.

I expect T5 will (certainly should imo) include those two little rules additions (my posts above) from TTB.