Count > Marquis. Was CT Nobility wrong?

[Maladominus]

Now that I've had some time to delve into the workings of the Imperial nobility.... I can't help but notice...

LBB 1 says that

Knight = SS 11
Baron = SS 12
Marquis = SS 13
Count = SS 14

Now hold on a minute! Why does every other website and reference say that Marquis are higher up in the Peerage than Counts?!

Was CT wrong here? Or is this just some kind of typo that was never corrected?

Discuss!

 

[robject]

Huh! I think I always used the CT levels, I think (?). Marquis was often the ruler of a world, while a Count was the ruler of a 'county' -- a small cluster of worlds. Though the distinction never intruded on my games... it would be nice to know if it's a typo or not.

 

[Maladominus]

A quick check on the Internet will tell you that the "ranks of the nobility" of every nation on Earth.... including France, Medieval England, Italy, etc.... will always have a Marquis (or Marquessa) higher up than a Count.

This discrepancy had never come up in debate all these years of COTI? I'm surprised! LOL

 

[robject]

I'm sure the TML has argued over it...

 

[far-trader]

I noticed it once and thought I'd posted a similar question somewhere. Here or the TML, but I don't recall and a quick search here didn't find it. So maybe I just went, huh, that's odd, and forgot about it

It isn't a huge issue since not too often will player's be dealing with Counts and Marquesses, and even rarer will they actually be themselves so high.

 

[Maladominus]

OK I agree with you to a point.

For characters it's not an issue. It's very rare for a player character to be any higher than a Baron. But for NPCs and Patrons who are of the Imperial nobility.... well, it does get confusing.

 

[alanb]

Historically, the priority of noble ranks was fluid. A title could be used in one area to designate some one of far less importance than the holder of the title elsewhere.

Furthermore, in Roman terminology, "Comes" (Count) was a title senior to "Dux" (Duke).

It's entirely possible that the relative priority of various titles could change between the present day and the Far Future.

So it's not a problem.

 

[mike wightman]

Look no further than GT Nobles for the explanation.
Page 17:

Oddly, at the beginning of the Imperial period the titles of viscount and count were actually inferior to that of marquis. A marquis was usually associated with a large and impoertant world, while a viscount or count often had only a scattering of backwater worlds... as the Imperium expanded the viscounts and counts became increasingly important, especially with regard to adminitration of new territory... Emperor Zhakirov finally recognised the realities... and issued a decree reforming the Imperial nobility in 669.

Personally, I think someone at GDW goofed years ago and we've been stuck with it ever since

(just like the jump drive/maneuver drive switch in High Guard

)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

CT: Marquis, Count
MT: Marquis, Count
TNE: Marquis, Count
T4: Count, Marquis
GT: Marquis, Count
T20: Marquis, Count

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, so did T4 try to correct the mistake...

just like they tried to make heplar and thruster plates co-exist etc.

What if T4 had been done right?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

More likely the change in T4 was a mistake!

 

[RainOfSteel]

And since counties never were referred to anywhere in LBB canon other than in the one library supplement referrence, some of us blinked a few times wondering what the heck they were, and then ignored that otherwise non-existant level of government, bumping counts up to subsector rule.

Viscounts have been retconned in too recently to have had any influence in matters I decided on twenty years ago; and given that there is no level of government for them to be "bumped" to, I can't really say what I might have done with them. Right now, I just ignore them for MTU.

Maybe I would have made them an adjuct position in the county (subsector). Eh, no, that doesn't sound quite right. <sigh />

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And since counties never were referred to anywhere in LBB canon other than in the one library supplement referrence

Any suggestions as to where the reference to counties is hidden? I can't seem to find it....

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And since counties never were referred to anywhere in LBB canon other than in the one library supplement referrence [...]

Any suggestions as to where the reference to counties is hidden? I can't seem to find it.... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what you mean.

I know of no canon reference to counties at all beyond the one related to counts in the library supplement. This doesn't mean someone might not come up with one. (However, after several such discussions here on on the TML, no one actually has done so that I have seen.)

I once saw a fan website that mapped his TU's counties for Jewel and Regina, but can no longer locate it.


EDIT-----------
If you are asking where the one reference is:

CT:Supplement 11: Library Data (N-Z): p.36.

EDIT-----------
Prior to GT:Nobles, of course.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Supp11 p36

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The SM counties are here:

http://www.trisen.com/sol/default.asp?topic=10&page=33

 

[Gruffty]

Thank you, everyone!

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Are they going to fix it in T5?

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
A quick check on the Internet will tell you that the "ranks of the nobility" of every nation on Earth.... including France, Medieval England, Italy, etc.... will always have a Marquis (or Marquessa) higher up than a Count.

This discrepancy had never come up in debate all these years of COTI? I'm surprised! LOL

It wasn't a discrepancy until T4 'fixed' what didn't need to be fixed. The 3rd Imperium isn't any country on Earth, so why shouldn't it have a count be superior to a marquis? After all, Imperial nobles have very little in common with Old European nobles. (The unfortunate tendency of Traveller writers to treat Imperial nobles as the future equivalent of d'Artagnan and de Rochefort notwithstanding, going by power levels Imperial nobles START at the level of kings and go up from there).

Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it originally was a mistake (if you look in Book 1 you'll note that those ranks quite specifcally applied to planetary nobles; it was the author of the essay in LDNZ that made them Imperial nobles), but once it was part of Traveller canon there was no reason whatsoever to treat it as one. On the contrary, I always looked on it as pleasant little reminder that we weren't on Earth.

Once T4 changed the natural order of the ranks around there was a discrepancy, by fortunately Jon can up with avery nice fix.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I know of no canon reference to counties at all beyond the one related to counts in the library supplement. This doesn't mean someone might not come up with one. (However, after several such discussions here on on the TML, no one actually has done so that I have seen.)

The Marquis of Aramis is a vassal of the Count of Celepina who is a vassal of the Duke of Rhylanor (Traveller Adventure). (The Imperial part of) Jewell is a county under the Duke of Regina (Spinward Marches Campaign). GT:Nobles has several references, but I can't remember them offhand.


Hans