How could the Third Imperium survive the first Civil War and Barracks Emperors but not resolve its sucession issue during the Rebellion era? Yes, the Rebellion sourcebook has lots to say on this matter and keeps hearkening back to the "one clear choice" issue; however, with admirable individuals such as Brzk, Craig and Norris; with talented, qualified individuals such as Margaret; with charismatic, socially conscious individuals like Dulinor, HOW did it all fall apart? Was there a point of no return? Could a compromise have been met? What will future imperial historians identify as the turning point, when the Imperium was beyond all rescue? Should Dulinor have stayed at Capital? Should Strephon have returned? Should Norris have use the Blackheart fleet to clear Corridor and force a settlement with Vland? Should Dubya, er, uh, Craig have dispatched the sector fleets as ordered and hastened the end of Dulinor? I have made the point in reference to the Guild that one does not burn down an infested house, but rather calls the exterminator: is this true of the Imperium, or is Kuligaan correct in condemning the Imperium's very right to exist because of the Black War phase of the conflict?
Could the Imperium Have Been Saved?
- Thread starter Arsulon
- Start date
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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To the above: Yes- Appeared cowardly that he did not/Yes- a mystery of the War/ he Tried that, failed without them/No/ And Kuligaan's condemnantion rings hollow for a man who allowed his liege Lord to perpetrate the start of all of this.(this latter is IMHO only). How brave he "resigned his post"! As His Intel chief, he should have shot (or arranged to have/had shot) his liege as a traitor to the Imperium.
Whew. You don't pick easy topics do you? Well, I like a challenge.As for Turning point of no return, that would be the point in the war in SM called "Irretrievability Phase".
Last the major difference between 1st Civil war and this Rebellion was the battle for the Hearts and minds that involved the worlds that got fought over (The Hi Pop worlds primarily), as opposed to the "clean" fighting between various Admirals of different Sectors for the throne.
The Rebellion was Imperium wide. Craig, Brzk, Norris, even Margaret could only save portions of their domains from the barbarians at the gates. And in the end, only Norris' made through relatively intact BTC.
Thats my answer to those questions. YMMV.
Playing it safe Liam? I noticed, for the most part, you cited answers from published sources. I've read 'em too: I want YOUR opinion. I like your stand on the Norris question: pretty even-handed. So, what could have stemmed the tide? What if Craig HAD deployed his fleets and Adm. Hinchcliffe hadn't? Wasn't Lucan essentially correct in focusing all of the Imperium's strength on one problem (Ilelish's rebellion) at a time? What if he'd gotten the support he needed from the Domains? How do Soleean historians characterize the war, especially Margaret's part?
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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Now this I can speak on with "IMTU", and partly from Charles Gannon's "Hard Times" last chapter..prefaced by the notes of Tredek Jurisor, Kuligaan's replacement, after shooting himself, may I cheerfully add.(Yes, I cheered):
He spoke of the recontacting outwards from the "Safes" of the Pocket polities and slow rebuilding of the Imperium, and chalked the Rebellion up/ Hard Times era as part of the "Growing pains". He saw this period not as a second Long Night but a "Short Nap."
Now within these lines contains the hints, that Margaret's Domain/ and part of the backdrop of the adventures in HT allude to is that Duchess Maggie had a plan, after the 1124 reconsolidation of Megacorps back towards their safes, to realign these exchanged assets. Hortalez et Cie LIC, and Tukera Lines LIC were at the forefront of this
To re-emerge outwards, and bind things back together again economically.
I called this plan "Margaret's Dream", IMTU. Now In 1130, the Solomani finally made peace with Daibei & Margaret. A fait d"Acompli was established all held territories would be held by those factions (Daibei/Maggies/ the Solomani).
A trade route with Tukera and Transstar, the sole Transport giant of the Solomani Confederacy would pass from Vaward(Ma)/Quinoid thru CZERNIAK (Ou) & GALIANO(So)/Jayna into Solee (So)/Shenk.
They were in the set-up stages of this when the Virus came thru about 254-276: 1130.
Soleeans view of the Final War...If Virus hadn't arrived, they'd be sitting pretty. The Great War was over. As it is, its up to THEM to fulfill Margaret's Dream. Its their Destiny to restore her version of the Imperium. Tying togther small knots of planets, using Gunboat diplomacy, Carrot and stick tactics, backed by GALINES' totalitarian megacorps (An Interface world of the planned Trade route, holding offices of all former Imperial Megacorps (sans Vilani ones)-Primarily a merged version of Transstar & Tukera Lines with a fleet of mercantile vessels, and the Mystic Autocracy of CZERNIAK's billions, and their industrial might at TL-11. Solee had the warfleet & in 1196 the anti-virus countermeasures to pull it all together.
I placed about 187 Margaret's Navy remnants into the mix, along with 83 of Lucans' Navy. Ironically, Lucan's fellows are higher in the Navy rank wise because they were recovered first. This also helps perpetuate Maggies dream.
Where things turn sour, is when they discover the Hivers have backed the RC (which in their eyes means the Hivers have betrayed their pre-collapse contracts, & they, the self appointed heirs of Margaret view them and the RC now as foes in an ideological sense, as well as military & economic sense). It also gives the older Solomani second-class treatment of aliens a shot in the arm.
They think Margaret had the right approach, economically, and that Lucan had the right to go after Dulinor with all at his disposal. Where they disgaree on Lucan is his Black war Policy. While I have my soleeans not above using nukes, they do not do so with the intent to annihilate worlds rather than try to invade them/ ruthlessly suppress them
But I digress.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Message for you on Lonestar/Topics.
Liam
Liam
Thanks for picking that gauntlet up. Great responses: I especially liked your analysis of the reverse deployment/refusal with Craig and Hinchcliffe. Daibei would have crumpled, perhaps significantly weakening Ilelish beforehand, but crumpled nonetheless. From that point, the Confederation would've been free to flank the Vegan defense perimeter either smashing it or cutting it off from the Core-Diaspora-Solomani Rim supply line. Short term, Hinchcliffe's refusal to deploy the fleet would've stabilized Old Expanses and added immesurably to the security of Margaret's Domain. If Diaspora/Solomani Rim fell to the Confeds though, Margaret would've been flanked in the Old Expanses anyway (just later.) Ultimately Craig's delicate position was only tenable if he assumed a defensive posture: the 10th, 45th, and 92nd fleets were more effective right where they were rather than flying off elsewhere.
You're right on the money about Lucan: he SEEMS to be totally committed to beating Dulinor but he sacifices the Corridor and Antarean fleets while leaving the Core and Gateway fleets as his own personal security blankets (no, he's not a military man.) Likewise, he might have had a better shot at Dulinor if he hadn't started frittering away ships trying to knock out the PR nightmare Strephon's faction represented. Similarly, poor embarassed Dulinor wastes resources that could have gone to fight Lucan trying to do Strephon in a second time. You really feel for the Emperor when he writes "Dulinor, you blind, homicidal maniac bastard, get out of my way and let me at him!"
Thanks for the look into the mind of Solee: I was always interested to know what they thought of the Rebellion considering their position as the inheritors of "Margaret's Dream."
You're right on the money about Lucan: he SEEMS to be totally committed to beating Dulinor but he sacifices the Corridor and Antarean fleets while leaving the Core and Gateway fleets as his own personal security blankets (no, he's not a military man.) Likewise, he might have had a better shot at Dulinor if he hadn't started frittering away ships trying to knock out the PR nightmare Strephon's faction represented. Similarly, poor embarassed Dulinor wastes resources that could have gone to fight Lucan trying to do Strephon in a second time. You really feel for the Emperor when he writes "Dulinor, you blind, homicidal maniac bastard, get out of my way and let me at him!"
Thanks for the look into the mind of Solee: I was always interested to know what they thought of the Rebellion considering their position as the inheritors of "Margaret's Dream."
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Others I'm sure have a different take. But now that we know Craig didn't survive (thank you for the teaser MJD!), The last 3 mysteries remain...
The fate of Lucan
The Fate of margaret
The Fate of Strephon
(not necessarily in that order, though!
The fate of Lucan
The Fate of margaret
The Fate of Strephon
(not necessarily in that order, though!
Strephon - Either he died of natural causes as a private and broken man or he committed suicide when Virus was released.Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
The fate of Lucan
The Fate of margaret
The Fate of Strephon
(not necessarily in that order, though!
Margaret - I would either have her dying in office while trying to rebuild, or she goes into a low berth and wakes up every decade for couple of monthes to determine if the time is right to rebuild large scale interstellar economy and commerce.
(With all the stories of people low berthing it until the TNE period, why not one of the faction leaders)
Lucan - I go with him being assimilated by the Virus faction that takes over Capital.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The reason the first civil ware did not break up the Imperium is because they were mano-a-mano contests completely staged within the Core sector, only using Fleet assets. The administration of the Imperium was never affected.
The Rebellion didn't work that way.
To me, the game completely changed when Dulinor fled the capitol. If he had stayed to fight, it would have been mano-a-mano, and stayed in the palace. When he fled, it stopped working that way.
The point of no return was when Lucan failed to get the backing of any of the Archdukes. (Maybe he got one. I forget.) Once that happened, the Imperium split, never to again be made whole.
As for Strephon, I have two answers:
- He could have saved the day if he would have immediately returned and taken the throne from Lucan, executing him if necessary. This would have allowed all of the other archdukes to fall in line behind him and allowed him to easily defeat Dulinor. But this couldn't happen because of the second point.
- The "real" Strephon was an imposter, and everyone knew it. Since *noone* took him seriously he was a non-factor. (BTW, this is how it really was. The intention, all the way through Hard Times, was that Strephon died by Dulinor's bullet on his throne. Strephon surviving was a revision introduced in, I believe, Arrival Vengence.)
Given the above, I think the most intelligent leaders were Craig and Norris. Since they couldn't do anything to help the Imperium, they at least worked to protect those under their care.
The Rebellion didn't work that way.
To me, the game completely changed when Dulinor fled the capitol. If he had stayed to fight, it would have been mano-a-mano, and stayed in the palace. When he fled, it stopped working that way.
The point of no return was when Lucan failed to get the backing of any of the Archdukes. (Maybe he got one. I forget.) Once that happened, the Imperium split, never to again be made whole.
As for Strephon, I have two answers:
- He could have saved the day if he would have immediately returned and taken the throne from Lucan, executing him if necessary. This would have allowed all of the other archdukes to fall in line behind him and allowed him to easily defeat Dulinor. But this couldn't happen because of the second point.
- The "real" Strephon was an imposter, and everyone knew it. Since *noone* took him seriously he was a non-factor. (BTW, this is how it really was. The intention, all the way through Hard Times, was that Strephon died by Dulinor's bullet on his throne. Strephon surviving was a revision introduced in, I believe, Arrival Vengence.)
Given the above, I think the most intelligent leaders were Craig and Norris. Since they couldn't do anything to help the Imperium, they at least worked to protect those under their care.
There are three different sets of answers because there are three different Rebellions, designed by three different authors:
The first Rebellion (1116-1120) is the Rebellion Sourcebook, credited to Marc Miller (though Frank Chadwick and the DGP crew are also assumed to have had a big influence). In this phase it's very unlikely, but still possible, that "the Imperium" might actually have been saved. Old Expanses and the Rim are gone (can't be recovered from the Solomani). Vland is gone (independent, unlikely to be rehabilitated). Ilelish is probably gone (can't be rehabilitated OR defeated, will have to continue as a separate de facto shadow-Imperium). But some small part of me still believes that were something to have conveniently 'happened' to Lucan in this phase, that the other (i.e. reasonable) leaders (Brzk, Margaret, Norris, Craig, Tranian, Adair) might just have been able to pull together enough to reestablish peace and stave off a second Long Night.
The second Rebellion (1121-1125) is Hard Times, credited to Chuck Gannon. By this time the Imperium as such was irretrievable -- the Black War and economic collapse had guaranteed that -- and the second Long Night WAS coming, but "the dream" was still viable, and eventually the islands of civilization would have reconnected -- but probably only after a generation or more, when the original faction leaders were all gone/dead. Norris, Margaret, Craig, and even Brzk's Safes were all essentially stable, and when the time was right they would have expanded back into the Wilds and begun the hard work of rebuilding civilization. Whether whatever polity was formed would have considered itself a direct continuation of, or have borne any resemblance to, the 3I can only be guessed.
The third Rebellion (1126-1130) is Arrival Vengeance and Survival Margin, credited to Dave Nilsen (though Greg Videll was the credited author of AV). By this time (or, rather, from this perspective) the Imperium was dead, dead, dead, and even "the dream" had been irretrievably corrupted. 15 years of slaughter had killed even the idea of an Imperium, and all of the surviving/viable faction leaders were so morally reprehensible that even if it was only their descendants that carried on and rebuilt, it would still be seen as justifying (and, in a moral sense, perpetuating) their crimes. Civilization was not only going to fall, it deserved to fall.
The first Rebellion (1116-1120) is the Rebellion Sourcebook, credited to Marc Miller (though Frank Chadwick and the DGP crew are also assumed to have had a big influence). In this phase it's very unlikely, but still possible, that "the Imperium" might actually have been saved. Old Expanses and the Rim are gone (can't be recovered from the Solomani). Vland is gone (independent, unlikely to be rehabilitated). Ilelish is probably gone (can't be rehabilitated OR defeated, will have to continue as a separate de facto shadow-Imperium). But some small part of me still believes that were something to have conveniently 'happened' to Lucan in this phase, that the other (i.e. reasonable) leaders (Brzk, Margaret, Norris, Craig, Tranian, Adair) might just have been able to pull together enough to reestablish peace and stave off a second Long Night.
The second Rebellion (1121-1125) is Hard Times, credited to Chuck Gannon. By this time the Imperium as such was irretrievable -- the Black War and economic collapse had guaranteed that -- and the second Long Night WAS coming, but "the dream" was still viable, and eventually the islands of civilization would have reconnected -- but probably only after a generation or more, when the original faction leaders were all gone/dead. Norris, Margaret, Craig, and even Brzk's Safes were all essentially stable, and when the time was right they would have expanded back into the Wilds and begun the hard work of rebuilding civilization. Whether whatever polity was formed would have considered itself a direct continuation of, or have borne any resemblance to, the 3I can only be guessed.
The third Rebellion (1126-1130) is Arrival Vengeance and Survival Margin, credited to Dave Nilsen (though Greg Videll was the credited author of AV). By this time (or, rather, from this perspective) the Imperium was dead, dead, dead, and even "the dream" had been irretrievably corrupted. 15 years of slaughter had killed even the idea of an Imperium, and all of the surviving/viable faction leaders were so morally reprehensible that even if it was only their descendants that carried on and rebuilt, it would still be seen as justifying (and, in a moral sense, perpetuating) their crimes. Civilization was not only going to fall, it deserved to fall.
I always thought it was such a shame that they even tried to clarify it. It was much better when nobody knew if he was real or not, and it was left to GMs to decide or not. I liked not knowing!
From where do you derive your understanding that it was intended for Strephon to have been fake?
Could the Imperium be saved - yes easily.
Once Dulinor had run off, Lucan messed up by stripping the frontier fleets away, and allowing the barbarians in. His high command should have protested, but Lucans actions re that SDB captain that did not fire on Dulinor must have intimidated them.
The Navy had a plan for internal revolts, first used on the original Illesh Rebellions in the 400s. They let the enemy expend his force attacking planetary defences and garrisonning captured worlds. Whilst the imperial fleets act a spilers breaking up major rebel thrust. You can take some units from the frontiers to support your core fleets, but not enough to weaken the border defenses. This contains the rebels, unitl the remaining industrial capacity of The Imperium constructs enough naval units to crush the rebels. Then there is a slow and irresistable Imperial advance.
It worked for Artabella (she held off the Zhos whilst the yards built her a new fleet) and it worked on the Solomani and the Zhos (5th FW). The sourcebooks state the battle lines had stablised before the frontier fleets arrived.
If Strephon had returned after a couple of months, the Imperial navy / court / nobles would still have been loyal enough for him to get a good hearing, and DNA tests to prove he was the emporer. If Strephon was still alive, Dulinors support would have melted like a snowball in hell.
There Dulinor defeated, Imperium saved, after 6 ish years fighting around the Iliesh domain.
PS. Yes definately if you had clones, there would be someway for the advisors etc to know who was the real one, otherwise it interferes with the smooth running of government.
Cheers
Richard
Once Dulinor had run off, Lucan messed up by stripping the frontier fleets away, and allowing the barbarians in. His high command should have protested, but Lucans actions re that SDB captain that did not fire on Dulinor must have intimidated them.
The Navy had a plan for internal revolts, first used on the original Illesh Rebellions in the 400s. They let the enemy expend his force attacking planetary defences and garrisonning captured worlds. Whilst the imperial fleets act a spilers breaking up major rebel thrust. You can take some units from the frontiers to support your core fleets, but not enough to weaken the border defenses. This contains the rebels, unitl the remaining industrial capacity of The Imperium constructs enough naval units to crush the rebels. Then there is a slow and irresistable Imperial advance.
It worked for Artabella (she held off the Zhos whilst the yards built her a new fleet) and it worked on the Solomani and the Zhos (5th FW). The sourcebooks state the battle lines had stablised before the frontier fleets arrived.
If Strephon had returned after a couple of months, the Imperial navy / court / nobles would still have been loyal enough for him to get a good hearing, and DNA tests to prove he was the emporer. If Strephon was still alive, Dulinors support would have melted like a snowball in hell.
There Dulinor defeated, Imperium saved, after 6 ish years fighting around the Iliesh domain.
PS. Yes definately if you had clones, there would be someway for the advisors etc to know who was the real one, otherwise it interferes with the smooth running of government.
Cheers
Richard
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I remember it from when Marc Miller (or someone from GDW/DGP) was explaining it at Origins the year they introduced MegaTraveller. The "real" Strephon was always understood to be a fraud. There really isn't any abiguity in either the Rebellion Sourcebook or Hard Times. Remember, in Hard Times he *failed* one or more "authenticity" tests.
Fortunately, I don't have to rely on anyone believing me, because of the quote from Loren Wiseman on the TML.
(The odd part for me was that I had dropped out of Traveller before Arrival Vengence. So, after getting reaquainted with Traveller, it was a bit of a shock to find out that the "real" Strephon was actually real!)
I don't think the imperium should have survived this long. Not enough strife to reflect reality. With the archaic communications system it should've collapsed long ago.
I kinda like George's take on the longterm outcome.
With I had my materials available (they're in storage for a couple months) to review these facts.
I also recall dropping into GDW to discuss Twilight with Loren (he was editor) during the MT, T2300 games. He's a good editor but its difficult to be perfect on all of these points. Perhaps you should send Marc a polite e-mail asking for a clarification on "real" Stephon. Shame either said anything. Its a good thing to find out during an adventure an excellent problem best left to each ref.
Savage
I kinda like George's take on the longterm outcome.
With I had my materials available (they're in storage for a couple months) to review these facts.
I also recall dropping into GDW to discuss Twilight with Loren (he was editor) during the MT, T2300 games. He's a good editor but its difficult to be perfect on all of these points. Perhaps you should send Marc a polite e-mail asking for a clarification on "real" Stephon. Shame either said anything. Its a good thing to find out during an adventure an excellent problem best left to each ref.
Savage
George,
You know, its funny that we don't have more references to faction leaders going into cryo with a security detatchment and key ministers when Virus hit. If player characters could pull it off then why not government or the military? I like your vision for Strephon, Margaret, etc.
daryen,
I think you're dead right about the first Civil War leaving the Imperium intact because the administration was untouched. The Rebellion sourcebook originally cites one of the strengths of Lucan's faction as being his possession of the bureaucracy; however, as the years progress, with his suspension of the Moot and persecution of his staff, we see that not only is the Imperium's bureaucracy shattered, but that of its remains in Core as well.
Strephon a fake?! My God. Actually, I kind of like the idea that it wasn't really Strephon. For one thing, it means the Emperor wasn't the moron he seemed to be (e.g. not informing ANYONE he'd be at Longbow, not returning, not doing the IRIS tests properly, etc.) Likewise, it seems so much more tragic for his faction that way: people gave their lives for an imposter. It's also really intriguing to speculate on who/what the imposter was. Did Loren or Marc or anybody give you an idea of whether it was a clone, altered actor or android?
T. Foster,
Thanks for putting the Rebellion in its proper textual perspective for me: I had gotten into the habit of thinking of it as a heterogeneous whole, like so many people do with the Bible for example.
So, do YOU have any idea what/who the false Strephon was? What his/its motivation for the sham might have been?
Richard,
I agree that with the Stephon issue resolved the Rebellion would've gone down in history as the Second Ilelish Revolt, and been put down handily at that. Do you think Dulinor could've made a go of STAYING at Capital? The loyal guard and marine units ripped the Palace to shreads looking for him and probably had bloody murder on their minds. It seems like Dulinor forgot that the previous times right of assasination was invoked, the assasin usually had the support of the fleet and or Moot. Do you think the Solomani would've invaded anyway, to take advantage of the chaos?
savage,
Yes the lines of communication, such as they were, should've given rise to lots more problems than they did. The Third Imperium is intended with its comm lag to resemble the British Empire mid to late 18th century when every captain was a king in his own right; however, at no point did Britain provide colonial govenors with the massive arsenal suggested by the disposition of the Domain/Sector fleets in Traveller. If they had, you'd have seen more colonial revolts. As it was, English naval might was concentrated in the Sceptered Isles themselves. The Terran Star Empire setting of I.C.E.'s Space Master actually has less of a communications problem but, more realistically, experiences provincial/House revolts on a regular basis.
You know, its funny that we don't have more references to faction leaders going into cryo with a security detatchment and key ministers when Virus hit. If player characters could pull it off then why not government or the military? I like your vision for Strephon, Margaret, etc.
daryen,
I think you're dead right about the first Civil War leaving the Imperium intact because the administration was untouched. The Rebellion sourcebook originally cites one of the strengths of Lucan's faction as being his possession of the bureaucracy; however, as the years progress, with his suspension of the Moot and persecution of his staff, we see that not only is the Imperium's bureaucracy shattered, but that of its remains in Core as well.
Strephon a fake?! My God. Actually, I kind of like the idea that it wasn't really Strephon. For one thing, it means the Emperor wasn't the moron he seemed to be (e.g. not informing ANYONE he'd be at Longbow, not returning, not doing the IRIS tests properly, etc.) Likewise, it seems so much more tragic for his faction that way: people gave their lives for an imposter. It's also really intriguing to speculate on who/what the imposter was. Did Loren or Marc or anybody give you an idea of whether it was a clone, altered actor or android?
T. Foster,
Thanks for putting the Rebellion in its proper textual perspective for me: I had gotten into the habit of thinking of it as a heterogeneous whole, like so many people do with the Bible for example.
So, do YOU have any idea what/who the false Strephon was? What his/its motivation for the sham might have been?
Richard,
I agree that with the Stephon issue resolved the Rebellion would've gone down in history as the Second Ilelish Revolt, and been put down handily at that. Do you think Dulinor could've made a go of STAYING at Capital? The loyal guard and marine units ripped the Palace to shreads looking for him and probably had bloody murder on their minds. It seems like Dulinor forgot that the previous times right of assasination was invoked, the assasin usually had the support of the fleet and or Moot. Do you think the Solomani would've invaded anyway, to take advantage of the chaos?
savage,
Yes the lines of communication, such as they were, should've given rise to lots more problems than they did. The Third Imperium is intended with its comm lag to resemble the British Empire mid to late 18th century when every captain was a king in his own right; however, at no point did Britain provide colonial govenors with the massive arsenal suggested by the disposition of the Domain/Sector fleets in Traveller. If they had, you'd have seen more colonial revolts. As it was, English naval might was concentrated in the Sceptered Isles themselves. The Terran Star Empire setting of I.C.E.'s Space Master actually has less of a communications problem but, more realistically, experiences provincial/House revolts on a regular basis.
Does anyone think the Imperial Regency of Intelligence and Security ("They Also Serve Who Are Not Seen") might have made a difference if they'd appeared sooner? Was IRIS legit, or some intelligence sham to play kingmaker? Were they right to cozy up up to Margaret that way or was it the beginning of the end of their already shaky crediblity?
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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But the incident with the SDB skipper proved to Lucan (apparently) HE needed autocratic control over the Navy, ABSOLUTE POWER in wartime, and to ease things, dismissed the Moot, taking the World Senate/reps out of the loop to his decision making.
And thus the Navy was not allowed the freedom of action as per OP Plan "Arbellatra" as you describe, Richard (say hi to Emily!).
I could go on and on, what a dunderhead, non scholar, non military leader as Emperor figure Lucan was.
But he was doomed from the start by his creators/ writers.
Just my thoughts on your response, RichardP.
(Yes, as HIC, I would lined up and shot in Lucan's Imperium for having pointed things like this out, and "having a really, really bad attitude!)
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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IRIS is the MT re-incarnation of IBIS. It appeared in a Challenge magazine, but not a sourcebook. This has lead to hard core canonites to dismiss this as someone who got in good with someone at GDW (owed a favor, slept with author, etc, payback fer summat).
I disagree with that simplistic dismissal as jealousy from someone who didn't
(a) think of it first)
(B) believed if it was in a periodical, it was "optional", and not in a book/sourcebook making it "holy frikkin" "canon".
(C) An easy cop out for a critic not a creator/writer.
Aside from that, IT was supposed to be a Secret organization. I had no chafes with that. But I believe that the "kingmaker" part, was rather hastily tossed in in T-Fosters "Rebellion" (2.0)period of the Trav MT era.
But they made up their minds, and the "real" Strephon refused testing (Why should he? HE was the real Strephon, couldn't they see that?!?), Lucan shot Judith Isaacson in the throne room disavowing his claim: ANd that weasel Garran Trainor Hughes backed Maggie (or at least her heir).
(IMTU, only...In my unpublished version of events Arrival Vengeance, the three IRIS agents aboard (Martin Rourke, Megan Janvis, and one other (a Staff/ Dr fellow, former Covert Section who worked for SSI, LIC under RADM Logan Drak, Marquis of Fualcin, leader of the expedition, and whose mercs hijacked the ship), they take GTH to task for being asleep on the job when the Assassination went down. GTH admits even the throne screening agents on duty at the time were from Ilelish, and were part of Dulinor's plan to get inside undetected by psions in their employ (telepaths/empaths).
As for shacking up with Maggie, during the 2nd rebellion/ Knightfall adventure came out, maggie was seen as good candidate to replace Lucan.
By the time of AV (Rebellion 3.0 period), we see what really happens to folks who make in from wilds to "work" for Maggie's Imperium, auctioned off to megacorp reps in near indentured servitude contracts to pay off debts for "transportation/ job security/ etc.--and to keep the grist mill of industry going in a shrinking SAFE domain. Not to mention the corruption, graft, and racism of the geonee-icide, abuse of cybernetic veterans (if you're more than 25% disabled and cyber-wared, you're property, a machine, not human any longer...)
Maggie's legitamcy melted like the snowball in hell.
Back to shacking up--H.et Cie, LIC, the banking Megacorp of the Imperium, had a long tradition of hiring IRIS folks upon retirement (intellignece, market watching, long term views, etc--ideally suited for them--Like Oberlinde Lines, LIC hires ex-Navy/Marine personnel for their ships), and when HeC bankrolled the 1124 Mega-Merger swap with the Three Vilani Megacorps, they had a reason.
Maggie with her 1124 trade agreement with Craig/ non hostile role versus Lucan (defended, never attacked back)/ trade agreements with Hiver federation to get a several trillion Credit shot in the economic arm/ and non agression versus Dulinor was sitting pretty good at 001-1124.
But as Mr Foster points out in Rebellion 3.0-the baby went out with the bathwater.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The fake Strephon was never defined. (Which was probably a good thing.) His full motivations never explained. (Or even really hinted at.)
And all of the other confusing stuff is confusing because it was added later, pretty much directly in the face of what had come first. IRIS was a tack-on and always felt that way. Strephon did stupid things because he wasn't supposed to be real, but then was after all. Things like that.
Same thing for Margaret's nuttiness. She turned evil because the writers needed her to be totally unsympathetic, not because she was an evil bitch the whole time.
And all of the other confusing stuff is confusing because it was added later, pretty much directly in the face of what had come first. IRIS was a tack-on and always felt that way. Strephon did stupid things because he wasn't supposed to be real, but then was after all. Things like that.
Same thing for Margaret's nuttiness. She turned evil because the writers needed her to be totally unsympathetic, not because she was an evil bitch the whole time.
