• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Confederate Space

kafka47

SOC-14 5K
Marquis
I wonder if in the aftermath of the Solomani Rim War, that one could model the rim polity, not so, much as a Nazi state but the Confederacy prior the outbreak of the American Civil War. With humans being akin to the owners of plantation, not so much as enslaving alien populations but assuming roles of guardianship and trusteeship, until said races could have been integrated into regular human society. The war, leads to a backlash philosophy, and the Solomani turn racialist theory, into racialist practices leading down the slippery slope.

Seen the mockumenary, the CSA (Confederate States of America), might this be how the Solomani Sphere evolves? Not read, the Harrison (and others) counter-histories, what do they say about the evolution of a CSA and what inferences can we draw out for Traveller?
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
I wonder if in the aftermath of the Solomani Rim War, that one could model the rim polity, not so, much as a Nazi state but the Confederacy prior the outbreak of the American Civil War. With humans being akin to the owners of plantation, not so much as enslaving alien populations but assuming roles of guardianship and trusteeship, until said races could have been integrated into regular human society. The war, leads to a backlash philosophy, and the Solomani turn racialist theory, into racialist practices leading down the slippery slope.
I see the Solomani as more similar to the Victorian Era british colonialists than to the Nazis or even the US Civil War's South: the Solomani mainstream approach to aliens is nausiatingly paternalistic (they think that only a Solomani Man is fit to rule and administer the "uncivilized" and "primitive" aliens), but they don't go out and mass-murder non-Humans. They just opress them and treat them as childlike and inferior.

Ofcourse, the Hardliners have a far more racist approach, but in most cases it is kept in check by the Confederacy; but once the Confederacy collapses in the 1120's, the Hardliners might start doing things such as "ethnic cleansing".

On the other hand, the Pan-Sophontists have a far more liberal outlook, and they see the "solomani Way" as being the western set of democratic, liberal values and form of government; for them, the goal of the Solomani Movement is to bring all sophonts to the liberating light of that way.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I see the Solomani as more similar to the Victorian Era british colonialists than to the Nazis or even the US Civil War's South: the Solomani mainstream approach to aliens is nausiatingly paternalistic (they think that only a Solomani Man is fit to rule and administer the "uncivilized" and "primitive" aliens), but they don't go out and mass-murder non-Humans. They just opress them and treat them as childlike and inferior.
I agree with you.

The way I see the Solomani portrayed are as paternalistic. In no canon supplement have the Solomani have ever been portrayed as barbarically genocidal or actually having a desire to annihilate non-Solomani races simply for the purpose of ethnic cleansing. They're not "evil" in that sense.

In my Solomani Rim campaign, there are playable alien races which are "Confederation member races". A good example are the Ormine. The Ormine are squat chubby reptilian armadillo like, and highly intelligent. They were given Jump Drive technology by the early Terran explorers. As a result, the Ormine are eternally grateful to their "Terran patrons". They still are. The government of the Gerontocracy of Ormine sees itself as a "protectorate" of the Solomani Confederation. The Aslan clans have made attempts to threaten and move into Ormine territories (which is located in the Dark Nebula sector). The Ormine, with the backing of the Solomani Confederation, act as a client state of the Solomani Confederation.

In the same way that the Darian Confederation is a client state of the Third Imperium, the Ormine are a "protectorate" of the Solomani government. The Ormine would much rather ally themselves with the Sollies, rather than be swallowed by the expansionist Aslans (who have tried to encroach on their worlds). The Ormine already trust the Solomani, since the early Terrans taught them Jump Technology, and "uplifted" them to an interstellar species.

The Ormine are said to be an ultra conservative race. They are rarely rebellious, and they tend to take a long time to think things over. They live for hundreds of years. Their society places "elders" and old citizens in the position of power and respect. It is a paternalistic society. Therefore, this kind of society is in accord with the tenets of Solomani doctrine.

But just in case.... each and every Ormine "elder" (or someone who is a high planetary government official) is assigned a Solomani "advisor". These advisors suggest to the Ormine what policies they should follow, how to govern, etc. The Ormine elder knows better than to go against the suggestions of his human advisor.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
but once the Confederacy collapses in the 1120's, the Hardliners might start doing things such as
I thought that the Solomani Confederation did not collapse until around 1130s?

From what I've seen of MegaTraveller and Hard Times sources, the Solomani Confederation easily expands during the 1120s, as it has retaken Terra, it is very energized, and also invades and annexes parts of the "shattered Imperium". An example is the Solomani invasion of the Diaspora sector. As well as its victories in the Old Expanses sector.

Of course, I'm going mostly with GDW sources like MT and Hard Times. The GURPS Traveller histories are very different.

Perhaps there is some website that clarifies what happens exactly when....
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
but once the Confederacy collapses in the 1120's, the Hardliners might start doing things such as
I thought that the Solomani Confederation did not collapse until around 1130s?

From what I've seen of MegaTraveller and Hard Times sources, the Solomani Confederation easily expands during the 1120s, as it has retaken Terra, it is very energized, and also invades and annexes parts of the "shattered Imperium". An example is the Solomani invasion of the Diaspora sector. As well as its victories in the Old Expanses sector.
</font>[/QUOTE]I should've written "late 1120's" rather than "1120's". From 1117 to the mid-1120's, the Solomani were indeed on offensive and had several huge advances on the Diaspora and Old Expanses fronts; but their resources started to run out with the onset of the Hard Times, especially with the attrition war against the Vegans and the stalling of their offensive against Margaret. According to Hard Times and Survival Margin, the Confederacy began to crumble at its edges (such as Diaspora) in the Hard Times, and had a big ideological crisis circa 1127. According to 1248: Out of the Darkness, Terra (controlled by the Pansophontist faction) has seceded from the Confederacy circa 1129 to form the Terran Confederation. Sure, the Confederacy continued to exist in Aldebaran and parts of Canopus and Neworld up until 1138 (when, according to 1248: OotD, the Home government was decapitated), but in many parts of the nominal Confederacy space the central rule was effectively non-existance since the late 1120's. An example of this is how parts of the new conquests in Diaspora rebelled against the Confederacy - this is how the Cumber Confederation was formed (mentioned in Survival Margin IIRC).

Also, beginning with the onset of the Hard Times, the Solomani government - like most governments in known space - was growing very short on resources (especially ships) and the ideological crisis in 1127 (mentioned in Hard Times and Survival Margin) certainly didn't help. So, in many places, there was no central Confederacy authority to keep the Ultra-Hardliners in line, and I could easily see them pursuing their ultra-racist road essentially undisturbed. The only things taht would've stood in their way were the local Pansophontists as well as local resistance.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
I wonder if in the aftermath of the Solomani Rim War, that one could model the rim polity, not so, much as a Nazi state but the Confederacy prior the outbreak of the American Civil War. With humans being akin to the owners of plantation, not so much as enslaving alien populations but assuming roles of guardianship and trusteeship, until said races could have been integrated into regular human society. The war, leads to a backlash philosophy, and the Solomani turn racialist theory, into racialist practices leading down the slippery slope.

Seen the mockumenary, the CSA (Confederate States of America), might this be how the Solomani Sphere evolves? Not read, the Harrison (and others) counter-histories, what do they say about the evolution of a CSA and what inferences can we draw out for Traveller?
I think the most natural evolution of a "slave economy" in Traveller would be with robots.

Imagine a planet whose population is entirely humanoid robots. The robots were originally built by an ancient race of humans that subsequently became extinct or they uploaded their minds into robot bodies, so they could enjoy the longevity and durability of a robotic existance. I don't mean their brains are placed in robotic bodies, but their brain patterns are scanned descructively and encoded into electronic robot brains so it simulates the activities of a human brain.

These robots lay dormant for many centuries, carefully preserved, then some explorer lands on the planet, he pokes around and inadvertantly activates all the robots, the manufacturer's subroutines kick in and the robots automatically obey the commands of the human explorer. Robots activate other robots, the robots start repairing factories and they start building more robots. The human brain functions haven't been activated yet, so they are basically servile robots which have human brain patterns stored in them, but not running at the moment. The explorer sees dollar signs, the robots do what ever he tells them to, because they are automatically programmed to obey the nearest human in the absence of other directives. What a great thing this human guy has, he becomes the defactor leader of a whole planet with billions of humanoid robots at his beck and call, he orders that more be produced, and the programming of the robots and their human brain patterns are all duplicated with the production of each new robot that rolls of the factory floor. The owner starts a company and begins exporting these robots to other worlds. The human memory patterns are duplicated unknowingly with all the other robotic software and for a number of generations there is no problem, the robots spread to the whole sector and the man who discovered them becomes very rich, although he doesn't know how to program them, and can't be bothered with the details of how they are built.

After a while and a number of production runs, the human memory patterns which have been heretofore unactivated start exhibiting themselves, the robots start exibiting free will and self-determination. It turns out that the original flesh and blood humans who built these robots were very much afraid of them, they produced a virus that shut them all down, but did not destroy their programming. There is nothing particularly menacing about these robots except that they gradually over time exhibit a desire for freedom and self-determination, and the flesh and blood humans shut them all down because they are afraid of being replaced by them, unfortunately their society was so heavily dependent of robotics, that they couldn't maintain their technology without them. They abandoned their planet as their economy collapsed and travelled to a number or nearby worlds where they resettled, dispersing their population, at a much lower tech level.

Unfortunately, witht the explorer's discovery, history begins to repeat itself.
 
I like Mal's client states/races idea. This fits well with canon. The Solomani have uplifted dolphins, chimps, gibbons, etc. These races are no doubt indebted to the Solomani in some fashion. They don't have to be slaves.


The Solomani Sphere was part of the 31, and so it probably didn't have de jure slavery. It might have developed that later, but I doubt it. Robots work well enough on high tech worlds. Low tech worlds might indeed have aliens as unfree labor, though.

BTW- I've seen that 'mockumentary.' I was not impressed. Just more Yankee propaganda about how evil and racist the South was.

In the 19th century, most white Americans in the North and the South were what we'd nowadays call 'racist.' White supremacy was the societal norm. Lincoln wanted to 'colonize' blacks. Look at how the Yankees treated the Sioux, during and after the ACW. There were Northern and Western states with exclusionary laws aimed at blacks. Take note of the post-war Chinese laws in places like California. You might as well argue that the Solomani are like 19th century Americans, placing aliens on reservations as we did Indians. :)
 
Last edited:
Lincon actually wanted to deport all non-indian persons of color, according to his journals.

Send them to Liberia.... Frederick Douglas helped convince him otherwise, but was far from the sole cause.

The Solomani likely would deport people to homogenous enclaves by species...
 
According to 1248: Out of the Darkness, Terra (controlled by the Pansophontist faction) has seceded from the Confederacy circa 1129 to form the Terran Confederation. Sure, the Confederacy continued to exist in Aldebaran and parts of Canopus and Neworld up until 1138 (when, according to 1248: OotD, the Home government was decapitated)

The Confederation surviving up until 1138? Did the Virus take a very long holiday?!
 
Lincon actually wanted to deport all non-indian persons of color, according to his journals.

Send them to Liberia.... Frederick Douglas helped convince him otherwise, but was far from the sole cause.

The Solomani likely would deport people to homogenous enclaves by species...

Yup.

Solomani Confederation might be more like South Africa under the Nationalists. Think of 'bantustans.'
 
The Solos were too smart and too proud to adopt those new Imperial made transponders.:devil:

Well, those far from the border, IIRC people who do trade with the Imperium (do the Sollies?). Still, the GDW TNE is pretty explicit - Virus finds a way in, and pretty quickly - the varying tech standards of the Aslan clan just about bought Norris enough time to mobilize the Coreward Aslan to close the Cross Rift Route. That's way short of 8 years.
 
Well, those far from the border, IIRC people who do trade with the Imperium (do the Sollies?). Still, the GDW TNE is pretty explicit - Virus finds a way in, and pretty quickly - the varying tech standards of the Aslan clan just about bought Norris enough time to mobilize the Coreward Aslan to close the Cross Rift Route. That's way short of 8 years.

Solos get it done! :devil:Maybe they figured out a way to vaccinate their gear against Virus, by using modified chips from Cymbelline.
 
Sollies computer software architectures are legacy compliant with the ancient windoze 42...

they're SO used to constant rebooting that the virus couldn't even gain a foothold... ; )
 
well... next up -- who gets to insult Darrian bluehat linux ??

and we won't even mention that the Droyne OS looks like a hyper-evolved version of LISP...
 
but, really... if they discovered the Cymbeline chips were the cause/carrier of the Virus -- couldn't they just replace them ??

you'd think that with a couple thousand years of computer experience would be sufficient to mitigate a LOT of the damage... <shrug>
 
but, really... if they discovered the Cymbeline chips were the cause/carrier of the Virus -- couldn't they just replace them ??

you'd think that with a couple thousand years of computer experience would be sufficient to mitigate a LOT of the damage... <shrug>

One would if they understood what they were dealing with.

Remember computers in the Traveller Universe are as ubiquitous as electricity is in the modern age...yes, you could completely outfit a small house or cottage with gas heating, stove, lighting etc. but to do an entire city would take time and lots of resources and to undertake an entire civilization...

Now imagine if the electricity would somehow sentient and fight back combined with many people who may use the tools but not understand "how things work" partially due to the fact that manufacturing may not be done onworld or even that devices that are so smart that they are machines simply building machines with humans merely entering the design.

Add to that records of older systems not kept (save in Vilani space). I guess akin to many how long would many First World nations be if suddenly the Third World disappeared and the main technology say oil was suddenly removed from the equation. {And, no, I am not a Peak Oil nutter but their theories add much to an understanding of TNE}

There used to be a document on Swordy's site...I think that asked people to imagine what a fall from a TL 9 civilization was like...and that was the model for the Virus.
 
Aaarrrgggghhh! I despise the stupid Virus, IMTU the Cymbeline chips are a novelty at best.


but, really... if they discovered the Cymbeline chips were the cause/carrier of the Virus -- couldn't they just replace them ??

you'd think that with a couple thousand years of computer experience would be sufficient to mitigate a LOT of the damage... <shrug>
 
Back
Top