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Communication/Size limits on a Polity

Golan2072

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What is the size limit of a Traveller interstellar polity, based on communication times? In my Outer Veil setting I've used 1-Jump distance for the Core, 3-Jump distance for the intermediate area, 5-Jump distance for a frontier and 8-Jump distance for the extreme frontier (the eponymous "Outer Veil"). What do you think?

Also, what travel times did historical Age-of-Sail polities deal with? How much time did it take to get from Spain to the Philippines? From England to Australia? Or, in the much older Roman Empire, from Rome to Judea, Britannia or Egypt?
 
The general guideline is 6 months' march/sail for a round trip capital to fringes. Many sci-fi authors make it 6 months' travel one way.

Given the requisite for at least an average of 8 days, and reliability at 9 days, let's take 182 days as the baseline for 6 months... that gives about 20x the maximum jump as the radius for a one-way empire.

Note that at J1 and J2, a ship can be built with practical double jump for 17 days per 2 jumps, getting an extra jump in - 21 Pc and 42Pc.

At J3 and above, in standard density, the average jump distance is far enough that the last half parsec shouldn't be counted. So... J3 would be about 45Pc, J4 70Pc, J5 about 90Pc, and J6 about 110Pc.

Halve these if using "there and back" with the 6-month limit.

But note: J3 can double, so double-jump J3 and J6 the issue is that the cargo available is pretty limited - information can go, but troops, well, troops really go slower.
 
...but troops, well, troops really go slower.

This is true as far as it goes, but do troops, in significant numbers, go at all?

Even using bunk-rooms the ability to move large numbers of troops is severely limited, both in the ships required and financially.
 
6 month round-trip... Well, this looks like a good estimate. This means about 90 days per direction, at 9 days per reliable communications jump, that means 10-jump radius. At Jump-4, for example, that means 40pc from core to border. So the entire empire would be about the size of a Domain...
 
This is true as far as it goes, but do troops, in significant numbers, go at all?

Even using bunk-rooms the ability to move large numbers of troops is severely limited, both in the ships required and financially.

You lack an empire if you lack troop movements. A republic, coalition, or confederation may be able to function that way, but axiomatically it isn't an empire without troop movments.

It's actually possible, in MT and TNE, to cram a regiment of foot into a 5000Td J3 transport. And an Armor Regiment into about an 8000Td ship. In CT, it's harder - a 500Td ship can carry about 100 troops at J3, or a light company. A 1000Td J4 can carry a company of armor.

So, yeah, it's really quite doable to provide transport for troops. You don't need all the troops from the center - but you do need to be able to get troops going.

Now, a major world will have dozens of field armies - you don't try to invade them. You bombard them until they surrender - and bring in cadre from the center, and troops from closer than the center... It's the minor worlds nearby that you deny them with your troops. ANd you take their troops, and expend them on the other side of the empire...

Basic Machiavelli stuff.
 
And of course, depending on the rules used, you can move the tropos in cold sleep (so reducing the life support cost by a factor of 20). In CT this will not be an option (unless you can afford a 8-9% of casualties just for transport), but in MT this could be doable, as most those casualties would be temporary (and usually quick recovering). IDK enough of TNW, GT, T20 or T4/T5 to give numbers, and in MgT, AFAIK, the risk is told about but not especifically defined.
 
My house-rule for CT is that the LBB2 survival rates are for TLs 8-10 only. At TL11, the berth is MUCH safer (causes injury rather than death in most cases), and at TL14-15 it is almost totally safe. This is for an Alien or Pandorum flavour.
 
And of course, depending on the rules used, you can move the tropos in cold sleep (so reducing the life support cost by a factor of 20). In CT this will not be an option (unless you can afford a 8-9% of casualties just for transport), but in MT this could be doable, as most those casualties would be temporary (and usually quick recovering). IDK enough of TNW, GT, T20 or T4/T5 to give numbers, and in MgT, AFAIK, the risk is told about but not especifically defined.

A great reason for hospital ships.;)
 
My house-rule for CT is that the LBB2 survival rates are for TLs 8-10 only. At TL11, the berth is MUCH safer (causes injury rather than death in most cases), and at TL14-15 it is almost totally safe. This is for an Alien or Pandorum flavour.

I like your thinking, Golan.

Maybe what you need to do is recalibrate the survival die roll and give a DM of 1/2 TL ... or perhaps make it a 36s roll with a modifier of the full TL and an unmodified 3 always being death to give you a casualty rate of 0.5% at even the highest tech level. I know that Traveller has tried to limit multi-dice rolls and adopt 2d6 as standard - but I think there are occasions when a multi-dice roll makes some sense. This would seem to be one of them.
 
What is the size limit of a Traveller interstellar polity, based on communication times? In my Outer Veil setting I've used 1-Jump distance for the Core, 3-Jump distance for the intermediate area, 5-Jump distance for a frontier and 8-Jump distance for the extreme frontier (the eponymous "Outer Veil"). What do you think?

Also, what travel times did historical Age-of-Sail polities deal with? How much time did it take to get from Spain to the Philippines? From England to Australia? Or, in the much older Roman Empire, from Rome to Judea, Britannia or Egypt?

England to Australia Age of sail, travel time one way via Straits of Magellan Eighteen months, so round trip time minimum three years. Note these are times using mostly civilian ships to transport convicts. I suspect fast warships of the time may have been able to shave a few weeks but not months off these totals.

The time lag caused the British government a few problems, such as the soldiers guarding the convicts who overthrew the Governor of the Australian colony in 1808 (See Wikipedia article entitled Rum Rebellion). "The Rum Rebellion of 1808 was the only successful armed takeover of government in Australian history. "

However with this exception the colony survived and by 1850 prospered despite the 18 month journey time. Even in 1850 the lack of coaling stations in the Southern hemisphere meant most of the journey was done by sail not steam.

Can you fight wars at this time distance? Yes, in the 1600s the Dutch and Spanish managed to fight a war for control of Taiwan, without too much trouble, and in the 1700s Britain and Spain fought wars over the Philippines, and the annual Spanish Manila galleon sailing from Acapulco to Manila was attacked by both British and Dutch Navy ships. Peace treaties of the time all had clauses giving the dates in different parts of the world, at which the fighting would stop.
 
In 1868, the year before the opening of the Suez canal, the Aberdeen-built Thermopylae set a new record for the London - Melbourne run of 61 days.

Convict ships had no reason to be fast, and every reason to be capacious.

Ships with a reason to be fast COULD do it a lot quicker than the 18 months the convict ships took.

Traveller reproduces these conditions well. A polity which the X-boats can cross in 2 months will take a J-1 merchant 16 months to cross (with a week's hiatus after each jump for trading purposes), or somewhat longer if the unavailability of a direct J-1 route means it has to meander a bit.
 
Now, a major world will have dozens of field armies - you don't try to invade them. You bombard them until they surrender - and bring in cadre from the center, and troops from closer than the center... It's the minor worlds nearby that you deny them with your troops. And you take their troops, and expend them on the other side of the empire...

Basic Machiavelli stuff.

I've often pondered this issue.

I don't like the TCS approach to taking a world. "World surrenders when you appear in its sky with the ability to bombard it, for fear that you will" just doesn't do it for me.

A world is a VERY big thing to bombard, and can be given all sorts of planetary defences. Missile bombardment is futile. However many missile racks you can put in the sky above my world, I can put more Repulsors on the ground in all the places that matter. All other weapons on board are point-attack.

Plus, even if a world DID surrender just because it had a few Space Invaders to contend with, I can't see it suddenly becoming a loyal, tax-paying, resource-contributing member of your polity.

To control a landmass, whether it be an island in the pacific, the European mainland, the District of Columbia or Deneb - 3, you will ALWAYS need boots on the ground. Therefore you will ALWAYS need to move armies through space if you want to take somebody else's world.

I think DS9 got this one right, as well, with their Cardassian occupation of Bajor (transparently modeled on the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan): if the population of the world is hostile to your occupation, then your problems don't end when you overwhelm the "official" defence forces. In many cases, they're only just beginning. Therefore, a heavy continuing military presence to support the civilian administration which you impose will often be required.

There are, of course, cases (such as the Japanese incursions into South East Asia) where many of the occupants of the invaded territory considered (initially at least) the invader to be a more welcome occupier than their previous colonial masters; and there will always be a certain number of willing collaborators (as in Vichy France). But I do not see ANY way of taking somebody else's world other than transporting large numbers of troops through space and depositing them on the real estate.

I therefore conceive of the troop transport function of any offensively-organized Navy as being a co-equal with the fighting arm (the crews themselves may view a Cruiser as a better posting than old Beachhead Belinda; but the admirals and the politicians will want their APs every bit as much as they want their BBs).

I also favour this because it means that the taking of a world will invariably take TIME. Time in which you need to bring reinforcements and supplies in and out ... time in which you need to protect those convoys, and keep a protective force of fighting ships in the system to cover these movements of transport ships ... time, in short, in which the defenders can muster a relief effort, and space combat can take place.

In TCS, you've got to predict where the enemy will strike, and have your defenders in place and waiting for him. I don't see it panning out like this at all. I see a typical planetary assault involving an initial assault phase when the attackers are likely to enjoy overwhelming local superiority, followed by a consolidation phase when the invading forces need to dig in and hold their ground against the inevitable counter-attack whilst the Navy attempts to deliver the troop surge necessary for the army to go over onto the offensive. During this phase, the defenders attempt either to retake control of the space around the disputed world, to prevent the fresh troops and supplies arriving; or they focus their efforts on the support structures and logistics chain necessary to deliver the supplies and troops. Disrupt that, and even though the attacker enjoys control of the system space, his troops may not be able to achieve control of the planetary ground, and a pull-out may be necessary.

I think of the war in North Africa, 1940 - 1943, as providing a classic example of this sort of conditions (even though the rival armies were both, initially, present on the same landmass and could both march across each other's borders). The balance of power shifted dramatically as the abilities of each side to support and supply their armies by sea varied with the varying fortunes of the Mediterranean naval war.

The other model for planetary "invasion" in such circumstances would be to provide covert support, assistance, and encouragement to a rebel movement, and then seeking to make them your "puppets" by making them dependent upon your continuing practical assistance - but this requires that there be a rebel movement which is powerful enough to have a reasonable prospect of overthrowing the incumbent government in the first place. In this model, however, the naval battles will take the form of your navy seeking to interdict the incumbent regime's attempts to call in material assistance from elsewhere. So now it is more likely that your forces will be the raiders, and the enemy will be escorting convoys in.

I am currently trying to come up with a set of abstractions which will enable the planetary conflicts to be played out in a suitably simplified form to enable naval campaign games to be played around this concept of interplanetary warfare - but so far everything I have devised is either unsatisfactory in its operation, or too cumbersome to be practical. However, I am working on it.

Once I have those rules figured out, I will be able to back-project to the implications for Navy support requirements, and what that means in terms of the balance between fighting ships, transport ships, communication ships, support and resupply ships and other specialized Navy functions. I already have a pretty shrewd idea of what it is going to mean ... but I am not fully there yet.
 
Divide and conquer

There is the old divide and conquer strategy that the British used. Your intelligence services find out all the factions on a planet and select one that suits your needs. Then contact that faction/country and agree to supply weapons/supplies/advisers in return for trade treaties/loyalty. When your ships arrive they provide intelligence/artillery support with the Marines as special forces.

Now that your planet is occupied you can run a spaceport and leave the day to day running of the planet to the locals. You also remind the authorities that they depend on you for support.
 
There is the old divide and conquer strategy that the British used. Your intelligence services find out all the factions on a planet and select one that suits your needs. Then contact that faction/country and agree to supply weapons/supplies/advisers in return for trade treaties/loyalty. When your ships arrive they provide intelligence/artillery support with the Marines as special forces.

Now that your planet is occupied you can run a spaceport and leave the day to day running of the planet to the locals. You also remind the authorities that they depend on you for support.

See the historical experience of the British in Afghanistan when they tried that. Then there was the Indian Mutiny of 1857, and a couple of wars with the Boers in Africa, and the campaigns in the Sudan in the late 1800s, and also a minor thing in North America from 1775 to 1783.
 
Avoid getting drawn into any major conflicts.

Politics isn't always about representation, or beverage preferences. Sometimes you have to give malcontents something they fear more than they hate you.
 
See the historical experience of the British in Afghanistan when they tried that. Then there was the Indian Mutiny of 1857, and a couple of wars with the Boers in Africa, and the campaigns in the Sudan in the late 1800s, and also a minor thing in North America from 1775 to 1783.

Love it! Particularly the "minor thing in North America".:devil:

Opium seemed to work better, at least for awhile. You can never subjugate people with the tradition of freedom and/or the will to be free.

Look at the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia if you want to see how manpower intensive this kind of thing an be. Even the Russians left Tito alone.
 
See the historical experience of the British in Afghanistan when they tried that. Then there was the Indian Mutiny of 1857, and a couple of wars with the Boers in Africa, and the campaigns in the Sudan in the late 1800s, and also a minor thing in North America from 1775 to 1783.

I think that these are PRECISELY the sort of conflicts that we should really be thinking about when envisaging the sort of conflicts that would occur in our Traveller universes.

Large, powerful polities such as the British Empire (read the Imperium) fight ... and sometimes lose ... small, limited scope, regional conflicts.

Massive, all-encompassing Frontier Wars are difficult to game. Attempted suppression of Mahdist uprisings are far less difficult to game.
 
This is a truly ambitious project. Interstellar warfare is a truly huge canvas to work in. At the top level, you have the fleet levels, travelling through subsectors, you have ship to ship engagements inside the planetary systems, and then the ground battles on planetary surfaces. Compiling a rule set to cover the entire spectrum will not be easy. But quite useful.
 
This is a truly ambitious project. Interstellar warfare is a truly huge canvas to work in. At the top level, you have the fleet levels, travelling through subsectors, you have ship to ship engagements inside the planetary systems, and then the ground battles on planetary surfaces. Compiling a rule set to cover the entire spectrum will not be easy. But quite useful.

*cough*

That's why I use the rules from Ground Zero Games - the entire rules set is available for free download now from their website.

Stargrunt for squad/company-level, small unit tactics, Dirtside for ~Battalion-level combined arms conflicts, and Full Thrust for starship combat (suitable for fleet actions). Plus rules for integrating all three...

I've been using this rules set for years instead of pickyourTravellerengine for this purpose (military and starship combat) because they are so much simpler than any of the various Traveller engines and it is really easy to adapt the small bits that I've needed to.

D.
 
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