Common Sense: Evaluating UWPs

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Psion:
Not at all. Your stance is that a world must produce everything a TL has to offer to be classified at that TL. My contention is that it only be able to produce OR maintain SOME aspects of it. Otherwise, it seems to me that all Non-Industrial worlds would have very low TL indeed, because they import most technological goods.

That’s why I’d like to see three TL ratings to differentiate between local manufacturing capability, local exceptional manufacturing capability, and local import capability.

Originally posted by Psion:
I beleive that very few, if any, worlds that engage in interstellar trade on any great scale would produce everything locally. It doesn't make economic sense to produce something locally you could get cheaper elsewhere.

Yes . . . i.e. Gordon R. Dickson’s Dorsai! series.

Originally posted by Psion:
As an example, great many motherboards could be produced in the US, but most are produced in Taiwan and other places in Southeast Asia. We could manufacture them here, but this would require building up the industry to do so. But we have people locally who can maintain the technology and repair it; it's safe to say that we have the appropriate TL.

There is a distinction between being able to manufacture something, and actually making it. Every world that can manufacture any particular TL product need not be engaged in manufacturing every product available at that TL. However, with the correct manufacturing tools (including the ability to custom manufacture those tools on demand), it should be able to make any particular product of that TL. It’s true, of course, that custom orders will be expensive one-offs, but if the world can’t do this if someone shows up with the money to pay for it, then I believe it shouldn’t be considered to be at that TL.

I’d like to point out that if the TL value can be interpreted to mean “Yes, the locals have access to gear of this TL commonly”, but can’t actually produce that gear, then we open ourselves for a world of hurt. Does this mean that only Industrial worlds actually make anything? Who actually makes everything? You no longer can look at a TL-15 world and say, yes, I can go there and have TL-15 goods made for me; because you could get there only to discover that it’s all coming from somewhere else, even if the closest other TL-15 world is a subsector away, and even in that case, you don’t know if that world can make TL-15 goods. I think we’d be lost in a sea of maybes and we-don’t-knows under that definition.

Originally posted by Psion:
To me, this means that a world of a given TL might (or might not) produce SOME technology locally, enough to make it a viable trade partner. But more importantly it means that the world has a lifestyle that expects that TL and the infrastructure to deliver it to the populace at large.

It just so happens that I have WBH (which is basically a compilation of grand census and grand survey) right here. It calls world UWP TL the "high common tech level", and defines it as "the highest level of technology commonly enjoyed by the world's population." Some phaseology I have heard in world description in Gateway to Destiny seem to operate by this description.

The WBM system splits the UWP TL into 14 values. While this detail provides a wealth of information, a great deal of that detail is lost in the ordinary UWP TL value.

CT: Book 3 Says: “The technological level of a world determines the quality and sophistication of the products of the world . . .”

GT: First In says: “A world’s base tech level is the level of technology that the world’s population most commonly uses and can produce for itself with local skills and resources.”

The first and most recent sources on world building seem to be in agreement.

Originally posted by Psion:
What you are talking about is referred to as "acheivement TL", which is represents the best acheived locally, not necessarily available publicly.

I’d like to think I’m talking about a value that contains a compression of other information, losing detail in the process, but which cannot, perforce, represent all that information. Since it can’t represent all of it, we must choose what it, in its lack of detail, does represent. The sources above are clear.

 

[far-trader]

I'd just add that I've always taken the "Trade Codes" of Industrial and Non-Industrial (as relavant examples) to be with concern to INTERSTELLAR export/import, not a necessary limit or statement of LOCAL conditions. So a TL15 Ni world can still manufacture at industrial levels, but only locally, not for Interstellar export and trade. And that TL8 In world has somehow managed to find an Interstellar export market for its goods, maybe due to cheap labor and production, or if also a tainted atmo maybe no one else wants to pollute their world to make those products they export.

Of course there are still broken/anomalous UWPs but half the fun for me is in explaining them.

 

[Michael Taylor]

Back to Stoner, I've mostly written the system writeup based on 80 bill since I have no choice. Yes, that is system-wide population, 76 b on Stkner, 4 bill scattered throughout the system. Large orbiting arcologies, orbital farms, surface farms, 3 bil or so on the largest moon of the gas giant which is where the Stoner naval base and Ducal Fleet Systems Shipsyards are (which are very large). and a LOT of food is imported from the agricultural breadbasket worlds that make up 2 of Stoner's neighbours.

 

[RainOfSteel]

<daydream>
My ideal UWP generator would first create all the physical stats. Then it would let me designate the social UWP stats for one or more worlds. Then, based on rates of expansion (dictated by government types and societies and TLs), it would jump forward time in select intervals (whatever the designer wants. Worlds nearby each of the starting worlds would become colonized and developed. Between each interval, the user would force whatever polity and UWP changes were necessary to advance the desired storyline. As time goes by, and TLs advance, the expansion rates would go up for greater Jump numbers, but might also slow down for other factors, like economic depression (The Long Night), or political change (the Imperium becomes more tolerant and friendly after the Civil War; or at least it loses the will to destroy its opponents in order to expand).
</daydream>

 

[Morte]

That sounds pretty good, RainOfSteel, but it does seem to work best when there's only one polity (e.g. the interior of the third imperium). Once high level politics come into it, with wars and clashes of species and border agreements and so on, it seems to me that they can put the kibosh on this sort of numerical model.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Malenfant:

Is there any chance Hydrographics would be capped in the same way (maybe to a lesser extent) by Size as Atmosphere is?

What are the chances of Size 1-3 worlds occuring with Hydrographics A (or even 9 or 8)?


Hmm, this leads me back to my general desire to see the following things about a worlds oceans, directly in the UWP:

</font>

• Coverage (a %, in 10s, of surface coverage)</font>
• CoverageFraction (a %, in 1s, of surface coverage)</font>
• Depth (average depth in 1 km intervals)</font>
• DepthFraction (value in .1 km intervals)</font>
• Content (a point list of liquid types that a world's oceans could be composed of)</font>

If Coverage = 0, then CoverageFraction, Depth, DepthFraction, and Content are 0.

DepthFraction is added to Depth, providing for depths of 100 meters to up to 30.9 kilometers (although it might be a good idea to cap maximum depth, I'm not sure where to do that).

CoverageFraction works like DepthFraction.

CoverageFraction and DepthFraction could be kicked to the Extended UWP elments along with Population Multiplier, but the others are, IMO, critical.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
What are the chances of Size 1-3 worlds occuring with Hydrographics A (or even 9 or 8)?

How big is Europa? How much of it is covered in ice (in theory, with an ocean underneath)?

Of course, you might question if "ice" is "hydro", but the icecapped world trade code seems to assume that it does.

 

[Malenfant]

Problem is, this defeats the point (IMO) of the UWP. It's not supposed to tell you everything down to how deep the oceans are or how many trees are on the planet or exactly what TL in what industry it can support. IMO it's just supposed to be a very quick summary of the broad characteristics of a world.

As for Europa - hydrographics percentage is the amount of liquid exposed on the surface according to Book 3. So even though EUropa has a world ocean (it's size 1, BTW) under the ice, it still has hydrographics 0 since none of it is liquid on the surface.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
As for Europa - hydrographics percentage is the amount of liquid exposed on the surface according to Book 3. So even though EUropa has a world ocean (it's size 1, BTW) under the ice, it still has hydrographics 0 since none of it is liquid on the surface.

Again, I refer you to the fact that you can get a non-zero hydrographics on a 2- ATM and the system is perfectly happy with this, calling these "ice-capped" worlds.

 

[Flynn]

Hey, RainOfSteel,

Two things here:

1) Sadly, you can't generate TL without knowing the Starport, so Starport must be generated before TL. I don't see a problem with waiting to generate the Starport until after population, though.

2) Since HYD is generated by 2D6-7+SIZE, the maximum hydrographics that can be generated for a Size 1-3 world is 8, for a size 3 world, and that occurs roughly once every 36 worlds generated at size 3, which in turn is 1 out of every 9 worlds generated. The chance of that happening would thus be (1/9*1/36=~0.0031) 0.31% of all worlds generated for a sector.

Hope that helps,
Flynn

 

[Malenfant]

As Flynn says, you can never roll up a size 1 world that has 100% ice coverage like Europa and the other icy satellites do - the maximum hydrographics (using size as the DM, not atm) is 12-7+1 = 6.

In this case, the system breaks down - largely because nobody in the 1970s had an inkling that these world oceans would be so common in icy satellites (or even possible), so they didn't attempt to have a way to simulate them here.

 

[DaveChase]

But there is no reason that you can not create a specific world with every UWP code the way you want.

The system is designed to speed up the process of populating the Universe with planets that are more than a dirt ball.

Techincally any place can be livable with the right TL. And with enough manpower any world can be changed (terraformed). But that is a different issue.

I would just generate and fill up your universe. Then go back and look at it. As God (game master) you can change the few worlds that you want to make things interesting. Nothing like throwing a looper (3 times curveball) to the knowit all person in your group.

Dave

 

[Malenfant]

Yeah, but the problem remains that you can't make a Europa-like world while using the default UWP system. It wouldn't have a physical UWP of "10A" since the water isn't exposed on the surface. YOu could show it as "100" but then that doesn't tell you anything about liquid water being present under the surface.

However, one could make a new hydrographics code "B" that means a world ocean is present (by which I mean, one that is many tens of km deep, rather than ones that are less than 10 km deep which would be a hydrographics A).

But that still doesn't tell you if it's exposed or not. Maybe "B" could mean that the ocean is under the surface, and "C" could mean that it's exposed? But then there's no easy way to tell that a world has an ocean under the ice - in fact it may be that EVERY icy satellite that is size 1 or more has one.

 

[Psion]

Well, aside from Marc Miller not being a prophet of science (I could also talk about what we are now learning about extrasolar planets), what I guess the essential problem is is that UWP can't tell you everything, so there's no real point on trying to stuff anything into it.

Though I find you "extended hydrographic" idea interesting. Ultimately, if I wanted to say that, I could be happy enough using the world description to say that.

What we know abou europa like moonlets is that they probably require tidal heating and probably can only occur in the outer zone. If we wanted to generate those types of circumstances, it wouldn't be part of the mainworld generation sequence, but the scouts-style extended system generation sequence. If would be just another additional exception/modifier like we see in the extended system generation. For example (ad hoc; could probaly use improvement.)

If outer system, atm 2-, and 1+ hydrographics, roll 2D for 9+; if yes, reroll hydrographics as 2D. Roll 2D for orbital diameters or less; if this roll succeeds, the world has tidal oceans; add the code "To"

Or somesuch.

 

[Malenfant]

Unless we're missing something (which may be possible), you may not need tidal heating at all - Callisto has an ocean layer, but it's not significantly tidally heated and (as far as we know) never was either.

And I'm willing to bet that we're going to find oceans in the much smaller moons of Saturn too when Cassini gets there later this year - especially Enceladus. Those would count as size S bodies in Traveller.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Flynn:
Hey, RainOfSteel,

Two things here:

1) Sadly, you can't generate TL without knowing the Starport, so Starport must be generated before TL. I don't see a problem with waiting to generate the Starport until after population, though.

I don't understand why not. Since the size and quality of a Starport is directly influenced by the Pop and Tech, then I can't see how you can figure out what a Starport is without knowing these first.

UWP generation doesn't take this into account, establishing Starport first without knowing essential information.

Of course, this is why we have Tenalphi/Lunion, Starport A, Pop 1, Tech 14 (and many another strangness, as well).

Originally posted by Flynn:

2) Since HYD is generated by 2D6-7+SIZE, the maximum hydrographics that can be generated for a Size 1-3 world is 8, for a size 3 world, and that occurs roughly once every 36 worlds generated at size 3, which in turn is 1 out of every 9 worlds generated. The chance of that happening would thus be (1/9*1/36=~0.0031) 0.31% of all worlds generated for a sector.

Hope that helps,
Flynn

Ok, that pretty much solves that question.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Yeah, but the problem remains that you can't make a Europa-like world while using the default UWP system.

Well, we are talking (I think) the Mainworld UWP here so maybe there is always a better candidate for a mainworld in a system than some Europa like iceball

Or maybe such worlds are so far below the minimum accepted for classification as a "mainworld" that the system doesn't need to generate them...

"This is where you decided to settle? This slushball of frozen gases? That'll never do, pack your things you're being relocated to your new home in the asteroid belt where you can mine vital ores for the Imperium. Your new home will be Asteroid 7320, that's what's going on the charts."

 

[Straybow]

Cripes, 3 pages in 3 days

I think the thing to do with Stoner is to really go for it. Breathtakingly broken UWPs need breathtakingly bold explanations to carry them through by sheer bravado. So knock our socks off.

That's a good one!

Originally posted by Flynn:
Regarding the Stoner issue, I happen to agree with Straybow. At TL14, you've got 80 billion people living like sardines, probably under the surface of the rockball, and using the benefits of such a high Tech Level to provide food stuffs for the populace. I think it's tight, and there's little to no privacy, but I think it's doable... but it requires a lot of underground hydroponic farms... lots and lots of such farms.

Given it's high law level and the fact that it's a Charismatic Oligarchy, I'm assuming that the Stoner family line encourages a caste system that rewards nobility, and provides enough happy juice as part of the food supply to keep people from getting too edgy. Privacy is a rare quantity, and people are rarely, if ever, truely alone.

<snip>

That's still a reasonable population density of ~9990.41 people per square kilometer.

I'd dare say that the population refers, then, to the system, including orbital communities, etc., and Stoner probably imports a significant amount of food stuff and other life support materials.

Either that, or those farms run deep, over several hundreds of levels, and are extremely efficient...

Whichever works best for you.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

It isn't even that bad. It doesn't take skyscrapers to reach those population densities, as most skyscrapers are commercial rather than residential. NYC is 25k/mi² (10k/km²) and large areas (Staten Island, Bronx, etc) are single-family 2 story homes freestanding on small lots.

With little cost to expansion in the vertical dimension due to negligible gravity, privacy and elbow room are restricted more by access to volatiles than physical space.

Remember that USA is the major exporter of grains, so we are supported by significantly less than that reported arable land use. We waste much domestic grain in fattening our livestock, and almost all farming suffers about 50% post-harvest waste. Land productivity is therefore 4 or more times Flynn's simply calculated productivity.

Advanced non-land-based agriculture means localized production unaffected by seasons or other natural cyclic limitations, including tissue-culture meat instead of meat-on-the-hoof. This will tend to eliminate market slack and other factors responsible for waste. On a simple calories/area scale hydroponics and standard scifi techniques can be 100 times as productive as late 20th cen world average 1000/mi² (400/km²).

Food production available to average interstellar civilization therefore easily outstrips population densities required for Stoner. Citizens aren't living in pastoral bliss, but neither are they living in a dark distopia.

Really, the only way a UWP can be truly broken is failing to dictate the technology level required to support the rest of the UWP.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
Yeah, but the problem remains that you can't make a Europa-like world while using the default UWP system.

Well, we are talking (I think) the Mainworld UWP here so maybe there is always a better candidate for a mainworld in a system than some Europa like iceball

Or maybe such worlds are so far below the minimum accepted for classification as a "mainworld" that the system doesn't need to generate them...

"This is where you decided to settle? This slushball of frozen gases? That'll never do, pack your things you're being relocated to your new home in the asteroid belt where you can mine vital ores for the Imperium. Your new home will be Asteroid 7320, that's what's going on the charts." </font>[/QUOTE]For a mainworld, yes. But when it comes to system generation, there are lots of small bodies, each with their own UWP.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Well, we are talking (I think) the Mainworld UWP here so maybe there is always a better candidate for a mainworld in a system than some Europa like iceball

Try telling that to the billions who settle on worlds with Insidious atmospheres... - ANYWHERE is better than that, and it is hideously unlikely that there are no rockballs or other much more habitable worlds anywhere else in those systems to live on.