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Combining Hard Times and collapse effects

I've just got a PDF copy of Hard Times and I'm confused about how to combine the UWP changes in that with the TNE collapse effects determination. Do I take the UWP after Hard Times changes and then change that with the collapse effects determination procedure? Or do I use the original UWP and run that through the collapse effects determination procedure? :confused:
Originally posted by CardinalBiggles:
Do I take the UWP after Hard Times changes and then change that with the collapse effects determination procedure? Or do I use the original UWP and run that through the collapse effects determination procedure?
Either. It's your game.

Strictly speaking, you should collapse from the original UWP. That's what seems to have been done in the published material.

On the other hand, collapsing from the Hard Times data will give different results, which you may prefer. Specifically, a lot of worlds may have softer landings, since they don't have as far to fall. This might be worth exploring if you want a bunch of worlds in relatively good shape.

As I said, it's your game.
Your Eminence--

Of which Collapse rules do you speak? As I recall, we had two processes. One for sectors that had already been Hard-Timed, and one for sectors that we had the classic MT data and did it in one fell swoop. My memory is fuzzy as to where we put that, however. A Challenge article?

Your Eminence--

Now that I am home and able to consult my library, I see that you are probably referring to the collapse rules on TNE 190-91. Alanb is correct, you do that from the original UWPs, not the Hard Times UWPs. The reason for that is that most sectors probably did not get their values Hard Timed, and it was not the idea that poor overworked referees would have to do it twice. Nor would it be right to tell owners of TNE, "by the way, you have to go out and buy a copy of Hard Times to use this book."

However, as alanb points out, the nature of the TL drop means that Hard Timed worlds may fare better in TL drop, and you can fiddle to get things that you like.

But the idea is that the Hard Times process shows you a snapshot of worlds on the downward spiral from their CT/MT primes to their collapse nadirs. The TNE collapse rules allow you to do that in one step rather than two, even though the vagaries of die rolls might result in quite different results doing it in two steps rather than one.

Thanks very much for the replies guys. I think I will not combine them but use the Hard Times changes for the physical changes to the planet and then have the tech-levels hit harder with the TNE drop. Lots of low tech hell holes to interest my players!
The only physical change you have to worry about is the possible collapse of the atmosphere as a result of the Black War policies or subsequent Virus strikes.

The Collapse/Recovery procedure that will be in TNE:1248 covers those points as well.

Hope this helps,
I love acting with purpose myself. Worlds that I want my Players to visit get selected treatment by modified rolls of the die and other potentialy visited worlds get dropped by straight TNE rules. If the world needed technology to sustain the atmosphere, they got dropped harder (and held more potential targets for recover of materials for auction).
Since the Hard Times effects included nukes, planetary bombardments and such, I went ahead and used those rules first, for the Hi Pop and worlds with military and naval bases especially, then came along later with the virus effects and vampire fleets to hit the high tech and whatever ships remained outside the Black War zones and fleet movements.

It does tend to really sink many planets into a real dark age, but IMTU I'm a good ways closer to Core than the Old Expanses and Diaspora on a world similiar to Yontez, only suffering a large Pop loss, but relatively low tech at the start so not all that much affected by Virus, again like Yontez, so it's an 'Up From The Ashes' type that focuses on long term rebuilding while repeling offworld slavers.

I get to use the Twilight 2000 book for encounters, scavenge ruins using the old Aftermath rules set, make good use of the World Tamers book, and can still get offworld for the occasional Swords And Lasers adventure, all in one campaign.
In my variant on TNE, not all areas of known space were hit hard by the Virus; due to the destruction of 99% of the X-Boat network prior to the Virus release of 1130, and to the fact that only Model/3 and abouve computers could host the virus (I use modified CT rules), as well as several other considerations, the Virus hit hard the Core sector, and moderately hit the eight surrounding sectors. Everywhere else, it's mostly severe Hard Times effects, economic collapse and Black War, so I use Hard Times for their 1130 stats anyway - and some have somewhat recovered since then, others have deteriorated.